why cessationism is wrong: good article

[convallaria]

[h=1]Cessationism and Rebellion[/h] Do not put out the Spirit’s fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt. (1 Thessalonians 5:19-20)
Verses 19-22 discuss the apostolic policy toward prophecy. Paul writes, “Do not treat prophecies with contempt,” but he tells the Christians to “test everything.”
Cessationism is the false doctrine that the manifestations of miraculous endowments such as those listed in 1 Corinthians 12 have ceased since the days of the apostles and the completion of the Bible. Although there is no biblical evidence for this position, a main motive for this invention is to secure the sufficiency of Scripture and the finality (completion) of Scripture. However, it has been shown that the continuation of miraculous manifestations does not in fact contradict these two doctrines or put them at risk. Thus cessationism is both unbiblical and unnecessary.

More than that, cessationism is also evil and dangerous.
This is because if cessationism is false, then those who advocate this doctrine are preaching rebellion against the Lord.

The Bible commands Christians, “Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy” (1 Corinthians 14:1). If cessationism is correct but we do not know it, then we could still safely obey this instruction, although we will not receive what we desire. That is, if prophecy has ceased but I think that it continues, then I could still desire the gift of prophecy in accordance with this command, but I will not receive the gift of prophecy. No harm is done.
On the other hand, since the cessationist teaches that prophecy has ceased, then although the Bible says “desire spiritual gifts,” he will not desire spiritual gifts, since the spiritual gifts are no longer in operation, and what gifts people think they have are necessarily false. This also applies to prophecy in particular. So although Paul says, “Do not treat prophecies with contempt,” the cessationist must treat all prophecies with contempt, since he believes that prophecy has ceased, so that all prophecies today are false. His view toward prophecy must be “reject everything” instead of “test everything.” But again, if cessationism is false, then this person would be preaching rebellion against the biblical commands to desire and test spiritual manifestations.
Since the commands “desire spiritual gifts,” “do not treat prophecies with contempt,” and “test everything” are revealed by divine and infallible authority, the cessationist must present an infallible argument to render them inapplicable for today. If he cannot provide this but he still advocates cessationism in the face of these explicit biblical commands, then is it not obvious that he has condemned himself before God, even if this person is right that the gifts have ceased? No Christian should dare follow such a person or believe his doctrine. If a person preaches cessationism but cannot prove it – if he cannot provide an infallible argument for it (since the command to desire spiritual manifestations is clear and infallible), then this means that he consciously preaches rebellion against some of the Bible’s straightforward commands. Why then, should he not be removed from the ministry or even excommunicated from the church?
Since the arguments for cessationism are forced and feeble, and since the doctrine presents so great a danger, it is best to believe the Bible as it is written, and obey its commands as they are stated – that is, “desire spiritual gifts” and “test everything.” This position is faithful to the direct statements of Scripture, but it requires courageous resistance to fallacious arguments, academic bullying, and church traditions.
Inherent in this biblical approach is protection against charismatic fanatics and false miracles. The Bible instructs us to “test everything,” and since it is sufficient, it is able to expose counterfeit miracles and false prophecies. The answer is not to assert that the gifts have ceased, but to follow the instructions that the Bible has already given on the subject. This position, that we should follow what Scripture says, would offer us perfect protection even if cessationism is correct. If prophecy has indeed ceased, then any prophecy today is false. Since the Bible is a sufficient revelation, the information in it will enable us to “test everything,” so that any alleged prophecy today will either be tested, and finding it false, it will be condemned, or if the content is such that it is untestable, it will be ignored.

Cessationism teaches us to abandon some divine commands without divine warrant, and thus preaches rebellion, but the position that we should obey both “desire spiritual gifts” and “test everything” preaches obedience to the Lord, and it is at the same time able to protect itself against all deception. There is no danger in desiring spiritual gifts as long as we also test everything – if all spiritual manifestations are false, then we will expose all of them as false when we test them, and so we will regard all of them as false. A person who does this is safe from judgment.

 

[notuptome]

Cessationism and Rebellion

Do not put out the Spirit’s fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt. (1 Thessalonians 5:19-20)
Verses 19-22 discuss the apostolic policy toward prophecy. Paul writes, “Do not treat prophecies with contempt,” but he tells the Christians to “test everything.”
Cessationism is the false doctrine that the manifestations of miraculous endowments such as those listed in 1 Corinthians 12 have ceased since the days of the apostles and the completion of the Bible. Although there is no biblical evidence for this position, a main motive for this invention is to secure the sufficiency of Scripture and the finality (completion) of Scripture. However, it has been shown that the continuation of miraculous manifestations does not in fact contradict these two doctrines or put them at risk. Thus cessationism is both unbiblical and unnecessary.

More than that, cessationism is also evil and dangerous.
This is because if cessationism is false, then those who advocate this doctrine are preaching rebellion against the Lord.

The Bible commands Christians, “Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy” (1 Corinthians 14:1). If cessationism is correct but we do not know it, then we could still safely obey this instruction, although we will not receive what we desire. That is, if prophecy has ceased but I think that it continues, then I could still desire the gift of prophecy in accordance with this command, but I will not receive the gift of prophecy. No harm is done.
On the other hand, since the cessationist teaches that prophecy has ceased, then although the Bible says “desire spiritual gifts,” he will not desire spiritual gifts, since the spiritual gifts are no longer in operation, and what gifts people think they have are necessarily false. This also applies to prophecy in particular. So although Paul says, “Do not treat prophecies with contempt,” the cessationist must treat all prophecies with contempt, since he believes that prophecy has ceased, so that all prophecies today are false. His view toward prophecy must be “reject everything” instead of “test everything.” But again, if cessationism is false, then this person would be preaching rebellion against the biblical commands to desire and test spiritual manifestations.
Since the commands “desire spiritual gifts,” “do not treat prophecies with contempt,” and “test everything” are revealed by divine and infallible authority, the cessationist must present an infallible argument to render them inapplicable for today. If he cannot provide this but he still advocates cessationism in the face of these explicit biblical commands, then is it not obvious that he has condemned himself before God, even if this person is right that the gifts have ceased? No Christian should dare follow such a person or believe his doctrine. If a person preaches cessationism but cannot prove it – if he cannot provide an infallible argument for it (since the command to desire spiritual manifestations is clear and infallible), then this means that he consciously preaches rebellion against some of the Bible’s straightforward commands. Why then, should he not be removed from the ministry or even excommunicated from the church?
Since the arguments for cessationism are forced and feeble, and since the doctrine presents so great a danger, it is best to believe the Bible as it is written, and obey its commands as they are stated – that is, “desire spiritual gifts” and “test everything.” This position is faithful to the direct statements of Scripture, but it requires courageous resistance to fallacious arguments, academic bullying, and church traditions.
Inherent in this biblical approach is protection against charismatic fanatics and false miracles. The Bible instructs us to “test everything,” and since it is sufficient, it is able to expose counterfeit miracles and false prophecies. The answer is not to assert that the gifts have ceased, but to follow the instructions that the Bible has already given on the subject. This position, that we should follow what Scripture says, would offer us perfect protection even if cessationism is correct. If prophecy has indeed ceased, then any prophecy today is false. Since the Bible is a sufficient revelation, the information in it will enable us to “test everything,” so that any alleged prophecy today will either be tested, and finding it false, it will be condemned, or if the content is such that it is untestable, it will be ignored.

Cessationism teaches us to abandon some divine commands without divine warrant, and thus preaches rebellion, but the position that we should obey both “desire spiritual gifts” and “test everything” preaches obedience to the Lord, and it is at the same time able to protect itself against all deception. There is no danger in desiring spiritual gifts as long as we also test everything – if all spiritual manifestations are false, then we will expose all of them as false when we test them, and so we will regard all of them as false. A person who does this is safe from judgment.

Red herrings abound with you. Cessationism is a collective term by which bible believing Christians can be disparaged without repercussions. Only three sign gifts have ceased not all the gifts of the Holy Spirit. We should desire the gifts that remain not the gifts that are over and done. The gift of tongues was for Israel not for the Gentiles.

The real truth is that tongues have ended and seeking them now is against God. The real danger is allowing yourself to be captured by this untruth that you can speak or pray in tongues.

Eve transgressed because she wanted to believe that God did not say what God had said.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[crossnote]

"Eve transgressed because she wanted to believe that God did not say what God had said."

And where does it say in God's Word that any of the gifts have ceased?

 

[notuptome]

"Eve transgressed because she wanted to believe that God did not say what God had said."

And where does it say in God's Word that any of the gifts have ceased?

1 Corinthians 13:8 Three sign gifts are specifically mentioned as ending.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Dino246]

Roger, please explain how the phrases, "will be done away" and "will cease" (NASB) now mean, "have ceased"?

How do you distinguish between knowledge (which you claim has ceased) and wisdom (which you don't so claim), per 1 Cor 12:8?

Do you claim to know fully, even as you are fully known (v. 13:12)? If your position is correct, you should, as should all believers. If not, why not? Has God's "perfect" Word failed? Or perhaps your interpretation of this passage is untenable?

 

[Gr8grace]

"Eve transgressed because she wanted to believe that God did not say what God had said."

And where does it say in God's Word that any of the gifts have ceased?

Ok bumper sticker dude. I know you to be rational and can discuss a subject without getting all gushy gushy. And I respect your opinion FULLY.

We have "tongues will cease" when do you believe they will or have ceased. And I hope that you have noticed that if it gets heated....................I leave. SO I am honestly up just for the truth and not to ruffle your feathers!

 

[ladylynn]

The Lord confirmed the preaching of His Word with miracles. If Jesus and the first century Christians needed the Word confirmed with the miraculous (Heb. 2:4), then we do too. There is no scripture that says these miraculous signs have passed away.

Some people have interpreted "that which is perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13:10, as being the complete Bible. This has led them to believe that the gifts of the Spirit have ceased. Although God's Word is perfect (Ps. 19:7), it is not the "perfect thing" that is referred to here. 1 Corinthians 13:8 does say that tongues shall cease, but it will not happen until "that which is perfect is come."

In 1 Corinthians 13:12, Paul says, "when that which is perfect is come, we shall see face to face." This speaks of seeing the Lord face to face, instead of vaguely, as through a dark glass, as it is now. Some might argue that this is speaking in a symbolic sense, instead of literally face to face. But the next comparison in this verse says that then, "when that which is perfect is come," we shall know all things even as we are also known. There is no other way to interpret this, except as a description of when we will stand before the Lord, after this life. Then we will be face to face, and know all things even as also we are known.

Verse eight says that at the time prophecies fail and tongues cease, knowledge will vanish away. This is talking about the next life, or the new heavens and earth, because one of the signs of the end times is that knowledge shall increase (Dan. 12:4).

So the "that which is perfect" that Paul speaks of, cannot be the Bible. It has to be either our glorified body, or Jesus at His second coming. Either way, these verses establish that until "that which is perfect is come," tongues and prophecy will remain. They are still valid gifts, and even today, it is God's will to accompany the preaching of His Word with miracles.

I whole heartedly agree with this devotional article.

 

[convallaria]

1 Corinthians 13:8 Three sign gifts are specifically mentioned as ending.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Roger the word of God doesn't say what you are saying.

1 Cor 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

This verse says that these things will cease at a time in the future, not that they HAVE ceased.

You need to come up with a verse that says these things have ceased at the time we are living in. That would have been an easy thing to do for the early church since they freely moved in prophecy and prophetic writings.

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ. When Christ says He is with us always, even unto the end of the world (Matt 28:20) He means He is with us in His Spirit, Whom we receive by being born again. So I think if Jesus wanted us to know that He would stop demonstrating His presence in us at some point, He would not have told us He would be with us always, don't you?


Matt 28: 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

[jb]

1 Corinthians 13:8 Three sign gifts are specifically mentioned as ending.

For the cause of *****
Roger

Not so, the above is a complete wrenching of that Scripture out of its context!

Acts 2v16-21,38,39: "But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy. I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord. And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.'.. Then Peter said to them,"Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."

The is NO Scripture that limits Joel's prophecy or contradicts it!

Peter confirmed Joel's prophecy, that spiritual gifts will continue right up to the great and terrible day of the Lord, and states that the Pentecostal experience is for all Christians. Acts 2v16-21,38,39. Paul informs us that the age of grace is more glorious and more full of the Spirit's workings than the age of Law. 2Cor 3v6-18, Heb 8v10-13. All thirsty believers in Christ are promised rivers of the Holy Spirit's power and fullness. John 7v37-39.

 

[valiant]

Not so, the above is a complete wrenching of that Scripture out of its context!

Acts 2v16-21,38,39: "But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy. I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord. And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord Shall be saved.'.. Then Peter said to them,"Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."

The is NO Scripture that limits Joel's prophecy or contradicts it!

Peter confirmed Joel's prophecy, that spiritual gifts will continue right up to the great and terrible day of the Lord, and states that the Pentecostal experience is for all Christians. Acts 2v16-21,38,39. Paul informs us that the age of grace is more glorious and more full of the Spirit's workings than the age of Law. 2Cor 3v6-18, Heb 8v10-13. All thirsty believers in Christ are promised rivers of the Holy Spirit's power and fullness. John 7v37-39.

All Christians have enjoyed the Pentecost experience, being baptised in the Spirit, born of the Spirit and being filled with the Spirit. The gifts are secondary and NOT a test of whether someone is filled with the Spirit. That is not to deny their usefulness, only their necessity. Indeed, there are many spiritual gifts mentioned in the New Testament, not just those in 1 Cor 12.

What we should note is that the Holy Spirit gives as He wills. If he wished all people to have a particular gift he would arrange it. Thus part-cessationsim cannot be denied. It is time that we ceased judging peoples' spirituality by manifested gifts. Gifts are NO test of spirituality. Many who have gifts are carnal. The test of spirituality is the fruit of the Spirit.

. .

 

[nowyouseem033]

I believe certain gifts have ceased completely. i.e. Tongues/healing/prophecy which are defined as the gifts of signs and wonders.

The reason why is based upon 2 certain yet important questions we must ask ourselves.

1) What were the purposes of these gifts? and
2) Whom were they given too?

1) IMO the gifts were purposed in a two fold setting. One was to edify and build up the early New Testament Church, which foundations were laid by the apostles and prophets. These gifts also were to be done within a restricted framework that Paul outlines in 2 Corinthians. And NO they weren't used to put on a show in the Middle East contrary to modern evangelical methods being used today. Their purpose was primarily for the building up of the early church.
Two which is more of a pre-requisite to the one above is that is was also to verify and authenticate the men who possess these gifts as men of God. Context: In the early church establishment there was no Bible at their disposal. So what the gifts do is act as a sort of confirmation that the men who possessed these gifts were men sent from God. and because these men were sent from God people could hear what they had to say to them as they had no bible to be able to do that. The gifts act as " you will know those who are mine, by their works they do in my name". It is true however that their were many who had counterfeit gifts in order to lead the people of God astray such as false prophets etc. This is why men who had gifts had to be either sent from Jesus himself or appointed by Peter, John or Paul. Anybody that did not fit that category weren't recognised as people who had the gifts. hence detecting a false believer.

2) Scripture teaches that all do not have these gifts. So the question is who then does have these gifts?
The gifts were given to the 12disciples and apostles. (apostles were not only 12 but many more than that later on).
So the gifts are exclusive only to the office of an apostle. NOT EVERY BELIEVER.
question now is how does one become an apostle?
To be an apostle you were have had to either witness or seen Christ firsthand and be sent by him (12disciples, Paul on his conversion experience) or be appointed to the office of an apostle, by an apostle. (Many examples of people healing that didn't see Christ). So the gifts were categorised and were linked directly to the office and ministry of an apostle, and an apostle only. That is how they also were to distinguish those who were counterfeit and false believers. Either they walked with Jesus and seen him or they were appointed by someone who did i.e. Paul, Peter etc. If every believer had this gift it would be near impossible to know who was a false believer and who was a true believer. (in the area of gifts that is).
question now is do we have amongst us Apostles that walk the earth today?
My answer is NO we don't and no longer have the office of an apostle today.
The purpose for Apostleship was to establish the foundations of the early church through the gifts given to them by God.
Today the church is well thriving amongst the world and we are no longer at the foundations but we are upon those foundations. Hence the orthodox Church has recognised that time as the Apostlolic Era, and we no longer live in the Era.

Conclusion: The gifts were for a specific purpose (establish the early church), given to a specific group of people (Apostles), during a specific stage in time (Apostlolic Era) until the Word of God completed and revealed.

The death of the last apostle brought the ceasing of the signs and wonders gifts, and the closing of the Apostlolic Era. Then the dawn of the Enlightenment age which would prove to be one of the most prosperous ages until the Medieval age.

Note: Can God heal? YES healing hasn't ceased its the gift of possessing it has. That's why we pray for people we love etc, because we know God heals not us.
Does this restrict the Spirits ministry? NO, if you understand the outpouring had a set and defined goal.
What about tongues? I speak English so yes I do speak in tongues, its the gift of translation that has been ceased.
Prophets? Jesus Christ and all he says in his Word is all that you ever will need now and forever more.
Q) Why do we still pray for healing and lay hands on the sick?
1) First and foremost the bible explicitly tells us to pray for one another, lay hands on the sick and pray and I believe this continues and should continue amongst churches today. However their is an important distinction to make clear that during the Apostolic Era the Apostles healed in authority. In other words they were given the authority to heal in the name of Jesus which was again, directly linked to the office of an Apostle exclusively. So to summarise one could say that God healed people through the means of an Apostle. Today there is nothing wrong with God healing except its means now is through prayer. Prayer is not authoritive. Therefore when we pray for healing upon someone and they are healed we affirm that God healed them through our prayers not through our giftings of healing. We claim that God heals through the means of prayer not through the means of mens giftings.

 

[passing_through]

WOW to the OP ! We needed that word!

From across the pond, come sound teaching, thanks so much for posting that article.

 

[Galatians2-20]

Red herrings abound with you. Cessationism is a collective term by which bible believing Christians can be disparaged without repercussions. Only three sign gifts have ceased not all the gifts of the Holy Spirit. We should desire the gifts that remain not the gifts that are over and done. The gift of tongues was for Israel not for the Gentiles.

The real truth is that tongues have ended and seeking them now is against God. The real danger is allowing yourself to be captured by this untruth that you can speak or pray in tongues.

Eve transgressed because she wanted to believe that God did not say what God had said.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Sir, please show biblical proof that any gifts have ceased. There simply is none.

Read Church history people. In it's infancy, Cessationism was created as part of a much larger belief system. When persecution of Christians began to ease in the later 3rd & early 4th centuries, the Eastern Orthodox Church believed that they had crossed over from the "Church Age" into the Millinnial dispensation spoken of in the later chapters of the book of Revelation. They then began to teach that the promised Millennial Kingdom, that Jesus promised would come after His return, had come and they were that Church. We now call this belief Amillennialism. They believed that, because "the perfect church" had come, the gifts of the Spirit were no longer needed. Emperor Constantine would embrace this view when he established Roman Catholicism.

The Orthodox Church, as well as the Roman Catholics shortly after, would begin to reinterpret scripture to accomodate to this new belief that the promised Millennial Kingdom had come thus all of scripture had been fulfilled. Cessationism, Praying to Saints, exalting of the Virgin Mary, etc. were all created during this period of reinterpretting scripture in order to accomodate to this new Millennial dispensation that they believe had come. Basically, both the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church are guilty of making the same mistake that the Jews had made during the Babylonian Exile.

During the exile, Jews began to reinterpret scripture to accomodate their new living situation. The Pharisees, Saducees, Synogoges, and the Oral Law (now known as the Talmud) had all been created during this time. Jesus Himself staunchly opposed these new beliefs and it was that opposition which drove the Pharisees to have Jesus crucified.

If you do not subscribe to Amillennialism or Preterism, there is absolutely no reason to embrace Cessationism. The belief that the gifts of the Holy Spirit had ceased because we now have "the perfect word of God" in the form of the complete cannon of scripture (ie. the Bible) is a fairly recent belief, a new spin on the the Amillennial belief that "the perfect" has already come. However, there is only one that is perfect. His name is Jesus and I think we all can agree that His second coming has yet to occur.

 

[hind_let_loose]

"Eve transgressed because she wanted to believe that God did not say what God had said."

And where does it say in God's Word that any of the gifts have ceased?

Cessationists generally accept their position on account of considerations of systematic theology rather than proof texts. So, for instance, considerations like the ones nowyouseem033 mentioned support their position.

For instance: what is the purpose of the gifts that are under debate (generally predictive prophecy, speaking in tongues, and healings)? When we look through Scripture, we find that these gifts were manifested more when there were major developments in the history of redemption where God revealed Himself in new and more complete ways, with the highest points happening during and around the lifetime of Moses and Jesus/the apostles. Incidentally, these are the times when God gave the OT Law and the Messiah, respectively. And periods where there weren't any major new developments in the history of redemption were periods where these gifts ceased totally. For instance, the intertestamental period (after Malachi to John the Baptist) was silent with respect to these gifts.

All of this is -- to an extent -- confirmed by Christ's teachings about miracles and the miraculous -- these were signs that confirm the authenticity of some new claim, such as that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. For instance:

Mark 2:9-11, "Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? (10) But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) (11) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house."

In this passage, Jesus tells us explicitly what the purpose of the miracle was: to convince unbelievers that He is who He says He is -- the Christ, the Son of the Living God, who has power to forgive sins. And we see the same thing taught or alluded to in many other passages.

Now, if we add to these considerations the fact that Jesus and the apostles are constantly diminishing the value of these "sign gifts" when compared to the value of the word of God, it isn't crazy to believe that once the Word of God is complete, there is no value to these sign gifts any longer. I'm thinking of passages like those disparaging people and generations that "seek a sign" and Lazarus and the rich man. The latter passage is the one where the rich man asks to be raised from the dead to warn his brothers about hell. Since the rich man's brothers already had the word of God and didn't believe it, however, the miracle of raising him from the dead would have been worthless to convince someone of Scripture's truth: "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (Luke 16:31) So, if we have the complete Bible now, the purpose of the miraculous signs seems to be undercut.

My opinion of all this? I believe in a weak kind of cessationism. I think that for the most part of the past 1900 years, the miraculous gifts have been out of practice for various reasons. However, during the Reformation period, there were some impressive "miraculous" things that took place -- including predictive prophecy. And I wouldn't be surprised to see some more come with the ushering in of the the millennium. Both of these were significant times in the history of redemption. But after these periods of change, I wouldn't be surprised to see them go silent again. But I don't think it is impossible for God to give these gifts to people at any time for specific reasons that we're unaware of.

The gifts are not, however, ordinary and to be expected by all believers. And I, personally, have never spoken in tongues, etc., and I don't expect to. Unless I need it to share the Gospel, I really don't care if I ever do. I'd rather grow in faith, hope, and love.

 

[ember]

Cessationism teaches us to abandon some divine commands without divine warrant, and thus preaches rebellion, but the position that we should obey both “desire spiritual gifts” and “test everything” preaches obedience to the Lord, and it is at the same time able to protect itself against all deception. There is no danger in desiring spiritual gifts as long as we also test everything – if all spiritual manifestations are false, then we will expose all of them as false when we test them, and so we will regard all of them as false. A person who does this is safe from judgment.

the biggest problem I have with this article, is that the majority of Christians, IMO, would not have A clue how to test anything and that, sadly, includes many who do believe in the gifts. They test nothing and accept anything spiritual as being from God while operating on the wrong assumption that God would never allow them to be deceived.

The entire world is under deception and only those who put on the armor of God and walk in the light and allow themselves to be led of the Spirit of God, are aware of it. People do not take Jesus warnings seriously and sit blissfully unaware of the deception that masquerades in church after church on a Sunday morning.

Yes cessationism is absolutely wrong and has left multitudes with no protection as they are told they don't have to worry about a thing.

Except....that is NOT what Jesus said. and NOT what the writers of the NT said.

Key to understanding spiritual deception is the fact that God will not interfere with man’s free will, and sometimes that means we’ll choose what we want to believe rather than what we should believe, even in the face of the evidence (Luke 16:31). “Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him” (John 12:37). Notice that they would not believe Jesus, despite the miracles. Their unbelief was willful.

All human sin is based in human choice (1 Corinthians 10:13). When we reject the truth, we make ourselves vulnerable to the lie. Repeated rejection of spiritual truth brings spiritual deception as a divine consequence.link to article the interesting thing, is that this site is basically cessationist in its leanings, but agrees with the op

 

[Dino246]

I believe certain gifts have ceased completely. i.e. Tongues/healing/prophecy which are defined as the gifts of signs and wonders.
...
Two which is more of a pre-requisite to the one above is that is was also to verify and authenticate the men who possess these gifts as men of God.

2) Scripture teaches that all do not have these gifts. ... The gifts were given to the 12disciples and apostles. (apostles were not only 12 but many more than that later on). So the gifts are exclusive only to the office of an apostle. NOT EVERY BELIEVER.
...
To be an apostle you were have had to either witness or seen Christ firsthand and be sent by him (12disciples, Paul on his conversion experience) or be appointed to the office of an apostle, by an apostle. (Many examples of people healing that didn't see Christ). So the gifts were categorised and were linked directly to the office and ministry of an apostle, and an apostle only.

Given the above, please explain two clear passages of Scripture:

Acts 11:28 and 21:10, Agabus the PROPHET; and
Acts 21:9, Philip the evangelists' four daughters, who were PROPHETESSES;

Also, though I'll grant it is slightly less clear, Joel 2:28, "I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; and your sons and daughters will PROPHESY" (emphasis added, of course).

 

[atwhatcost]

Cessationists generally accept their position on account of considerations of systematic theology rather than proof texts. So, for instance, considerations like the ones nowyouseem033 mentioned support their position.

For instance: what is the purpose of the gifts that are under debate (generally predictive prophecy, speaking in tongues, and healings)? When we look through Scripture, we find that these gifts were manifested more when there were major developments in the history of redemption where God revealed Himself in new and more complete ways, with the highest points happening during and around the lifetime of Moses and Jesus/the apostles. Incidentally, these are the times when God gave the OT Law and the Messiah, respectively. And periods where there weren't any major new developments in the history of redemption were periods where these gifts ceased totally. For instance, the intertestamental period (after Malachi to John the Baptist) was silent with respect to these gifts.

All of this is -- to an extent -- confirmed by Christ's teachings about miracles and the miraculous -- these were signs that confirm the authenticity of some new claim, such as that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God. For instance:

Mark 2:9-11, "Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? (10) But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) (11) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house."

In this passage, Jesus tells us explicitly what the purpose of the miracle was: to convince unbelievers that He is who He says He is -- the Christ, the Son of the Living God, who has power to forgive sins. And we see the same thing taught or alluded to in many other passages.

Now, if we add to these considerations the fact that Jesus and the apostles are constantly diminishing the value of these "sign gifts" when compared to the value of the word of God, it isn't crazy to believe that once the Word of God is complete, there is no value to these sign gifts any longer. I'm thinking of passages like those disparaging people and generations that "seek a sign" and Lazarus and the rich man. The latter passage is the one where the rich man asks to be raised from the dead to warn his brothers about hell. Since the rich man's brothers already had the word of God and didn't believe it, however, the miracle of raising him from the dead would have been worthless to convince someone of Scripture's truth: "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." (Luke 16:31) So, if we have the complete Bible now, the purpose of the miraculous signs seems to be undercut.

My opinion of all this? I believe in a weak kind of cessationism. I think that for the most part of the past 1900 years, the miraculous gifts have been out of practice for various reasons. However, during the Reformation period, there were some impressive "miraculous" things that took place -- including predictive prophecy. And I wouldn't be surprised to see some more come with the ushering in of the the millennium. Both of these were significant times in the history of redemption. But after these periods of change, I wouldn't be surprised to see them go silent again. But I don't think it is impossible for God to give these gifts to people at any time for specific reasons that we're unaware of.

The gifts are not, however, ordinary and to be expected by all believers. And I, personally, have never spoken in tongues, etc., and I don't expect to. Unless I need it to share the Gospel, I really don't care if I ever do. I'd rather grow in faith, hope, and love.

I don't usually get into these kinds of debates because usually they comprise of two kinds of people:
1. Those defending their tongues.
2. Those defending their theology.

Rather misses God all together.

But, you seem open-minded enough to get past both of those, and we're both into systematic theology, so I have some questions for you, if you don't mind. They come in no particular order other than how my half-working mind (chronic insomnia AGAIN lol) thinks of them:

1. Historically speaking, where do you come up with most of the sign gifts disappeared for most of the time in the last 1900 years? They didn't cease when believers were hiding as they were being persecuted in the Early Church. I've missed the entire history of the church from @ the 300's to the first millennium. (Never bothered researching it, not to be confused with there was no history back then. lol) I only know what happened in Europe during the Middle Ages, so have no idea what was happening in Africa and Asia. (Fairly certain Christianity hadn't shown up in Aussie and the Americas yet for obvious reasons. lol) You seem to know they showed up again during the Reformation. (I trust you know that. Something I haven't read.) And from what I know of missionaries and people who grew up with true missionary parents or heard stories of missionary work in their family from a generation or two before that, it's still happening in places that aren't so "civilized" that they simply stopped expecting the gifts to cease. So between the gaps in my knowledge, possible gaps in your knowledge too, what has happened in the more recent centuries (The Welsh Revival, Jonathan Edwards, Azusa Street, and the Jesus Movement), and what is happening in Third World countries through missionary work, where is this historic proof they ever ceased? I can definitely say it happened often on Azusa Street and often during the Jesus Movement.

2. You say gifts were for authenticity of new claims. Then here are my questions on that:

a. Given the Bible is about God, and throughout the whole thing, he kept claiming and proving more things about himself, exactly how do you get that it only happened there at that time? For instance, I know Jehovah made himself known in the Far East, because they had a word for God way back before there was even a China. There is historic record of Jao, the great I Am. Since then, they reduced it down to something else (Tao), but there was Jao. There was the great Jove of pre-Roman history. He was THE Jove. He was the great I Am. Only later did they reduce him to Jupiter and give him human characteristics. There is historic proof others heard from the great I Am that I Am. The significance of the Bible also only shows the significance of the Middle East because that's where the great I Am created his path to coming down to redeem those he chose. It's not like God only talked to those we saw in the OT.

b. What makes you think they aren't still needed for authentication? What has changed? Most folks STILL don't trust in God, so he still proves himself for our benefit every day. What has changed other than God has put down, in print, everything he needs us to know about him. The Bible tells us about God. It really does. But God proves himself to many people every single day of the week, every decade, century, millennium since the beginning of Man. Just because we never make the pages of the Bible doesn't mean nothing genuinely miraculous can't and doesn't happen to us. Just because in our limited scope of history we may never know someone who still is gifted like the NT apostles, doesn't mean those people don't exist.

One of my hubby's old friends is just such a guy. He was one of the Philadelphia street preachers who brought people to the Lord through words, signs, and miracles in the early 70's during the Jesus Movement. They lost touch in the decades after that only to meet again in a church that believes in systematic theology. The guy was home for a sabbatical (and to seek more backing for his work.) Usually he was in Kenya developing a church planting there as a missionary and told of the signs and wonders he still participated in. He heard the tongues -- the local elders told him what language it was, who understood it, and why the speaker couldn't know what he was saying. (Old language only learned by well educated people and the guy speaking it wasn't educated at all.) The miracles still happened, because in Africa they aren't programmed to believe they can't like First World Nations are. (I have no idea if prophecy happened. Hubby only talked to him for a couple of hours and the subject never came up. He was talking to an old friend, not doing an interview, so much didn't come up then. lol)

How do you wrap that up into systematic theology? It's still happening. I'm going with it never stopped except to people who are programmed to believe it had to have stopped.

 

[crossnote]

1 Corinthians 13:8 Three sign gifts are specifically mentioned as ending.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

1 Corinthians 13:8 (KJV) Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

SHALL cease is totally different than HAVE ceased.

 

[notuptome]

1 Corinthians 13:8 (KJV) Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

SHALL cease is totally different than HAVE ceased.

So shall be saved is totally different from saved?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Sir, please show biblical proof that any gifts have ceased. There simply is none.

Read Church history people. In it's infancy, Cessationism was created as part of a much larger belief system. When persecution of Christians began to ease in the later 3rd & early 4th centuries, the Eastern Orthodox Church believed that they had crossed over from the "Church Age" into the Millinnial dispensation spoken of in the later chapters of the book of Revelation. They then began to teach that the promised Millennial Kingdom, that Jesus promised would come after His return, had come and they were that Church. We now call this belief Amillennialism. They believed that, because "the perfect church" had come, the gifts of the Spirit were no longer needed. Emperor Constantine would embrace this view when he established Roman Catholicism.

The Orthodox Church, as well as the Roman Catholics shortly after, would begin to reinterpret scripture to accomodate to this new belief that the promised Millennial Kingdom had come thus all of scripture had been fulfilled. Cessationism, Praying to Saints, exalting of the Virgin Mary, etc. were all created during this period of reinterpretting scripture in order to accomodate to this new Millennial dispensation that they believe had come. Basically, both the Eastern Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church are guilty of making the same mistake that the Jews had made during the Babylonian Exile.

During the exile, Jews began to reinterpret scripture to accomodate their new living situation. The Pharisees, Saducees, Synogoges, and the Oral Law (now known as the Talmud) had all been created during this time. Jesus Himself staunchly opposed these new beliefs and it was that opposition which drove the Pharisees to have Jesus crucified.

If you do not subscribe to Amillennialism or Preterism, there is absolutely no reason to embrace Cessationism. The belief that the gifts of the Holy Spirit had ceased because we now have "the perfect word of God" in the form of the complete cannon of scripture (ie. the Bible) is a fairly recent belief, a new spin on the the Amillennial belief that "the perfect" has already come. However, there is only one that is perfect. His name is Jesus and I think we all can agree that His second coming has yet to occur.

There is no scriptural basis for tongues as exhibited in the modern church. Tongues are a sign for Israel. Gentiles comprise most of the modern church and tongues were never for them.

For the cause of Christ
Roger