why cessationism is wrong: good article

[atwhatcost]

Making general claims about church history can be difficult. So I probably shouldn't have categorically said that most of the sign gifts disappeared most of the last 1900 years of church history. The issue is complex enough that it deserves more than that.

You're completely right that there are many different periods in church history where people claim that these gifts were active. When I try to evaluate these claims (or evidence of activity), I fit them into one of three categories:

1) Third-person, friendly historical claims (for instance, someone today who has a vested interest in believing that the gifts were always active claims that they were active in the 2nd century, etc.);
2) Third-person, unfriendly claims (for instance, in the early church, pagans sometimes conceded to Christian apologists that, yes, Christians in fact were casting out demons);
3) First-person, friendly 'personal-experience' claims or straight-up observational evidence (an example of observational evidence: I have seen that John Knox prophesied in print that the queen would die suddenly before x months, and I have confirmed that it happened just as he said it would; an example of personal-experience claims: all the people who say that they personally have spoken in tongues, have been healed by such-and-such pastor, etc.).

In and of themselves, each of these types of evidence varies in strength. When pagans were conceding to apologists that Christians were casting out demons in the early church, for instance, that's a fairly compelling reason to believe that this was still happening at that time. That is much more compelling, for instance, than if someone tells me they know this still happens from personal experience. Unlike the pagan, they're much more likely to want to believe what they're saying and, so, wishful thinking, etc., may affect their judgement. (Of course, they may be spot on, too. So they aren't discounted out-of-hand. It is just that they get less of the benefit of the doubt than an enemy of Christ who has to concede something he'd refute in a heartbeat, supposing he could.)

In addition to this, there's another thing we have to keep in mind when evaluating miracle claims. (I'm including predictive prophesy and tongue-speaking as 'miracles'.) In particular, we know from Scripture that false and very deceptive miracles were prophesied -- so deceptive they would almost persuade the elect. This tells us that (a) it is possible that a compelling case could be made for false miracles and (b) that we ought to be on-guard against getting duped. As for being on-guard against being duped? Our only safety on this front is to put Biblical theology before miracles, and to put the theology of miracle-workers on trial as much as their miracles. If the miracles are used to support theological error, then I automatically discount them as coming from the Spirit of God (aka, the "Spirit of Truth").

With that background in mind, I tend to discount most miracle claims throughout church history -- though not all. I'm not quick to discount ones directly performed by God, for instance. If we pray for someone to be healed, and they're healed, give God the glory. I do, however, believe it is prudent for Christians to take a default skeptical stance -- initially, at least -- toward any claim that a person laid hands on people and healed them, cast out a demon, etc., while yet remaining open to the evidence. In a few cases at different times in church history, I think the evidence is actually sufficient to think the supposed miracle is probably genuine. They fit into those periods I mentioned above.

As for the specific events you mentioned: The Welsh Revival, Jonathan Edwards, Azusa Street, and the Jesus Movement. Jonathan Edwards is perhaps my favorite theologian, and I've read his works extensively. He dealt with ecstasies and elevated emotional states in the members of his church and community, but I don't know of any evidence that the miraculous gifts were in play at that time. As for the other revivals/movements: I only know a little about them by hearsay, and I don't know enough about the theology that went with them to really evaluate them carefully.

So, here's my take on what you're saying, (and I readily admit I may have misunderstood you, so feel free to correct me if I have):
Unless you know the religious background of the person doing the report, (the three types you listed), and the authentication of the report, you don't trust the reports? (And I understand you meant at varying degrees.) In a way, I don't blame you. I'm not that trusting with historic evidence either. Josephus got a lot of stuff wrong. The Council of Nicaea spent quite some time sifting through the different scrolls trying to define what was Bible-worthy and what wasn't. And, let's face it, any day on the news we see reports so off the wall, they're almost worthless. Almost.

That's the first reason I don't agree with you though. If they're reporting, it's a story. Maybe not the real story, but something happened. Four shootings in Philly two nights ago. I know two people were in serious condition and two weren't. I know the two in serious condition weren't related to each other. I know there were "three incidences." That they gave, so something really happened in three places related to three different locations. If it was a middle-class to upper-class person, if anyone of them happened in a rich neighborhood, Center City, or Olde City (the last two are our business district and tourist area), or if it was unusual (like the time a guy kidnapped a woman and took her south), we'd learn more from a slanted POV with more stories to follow up. But since these people weren't important, it was really about four bullets in people in one night. Still, I know there were these real instances.

In like kind, Josephus got the basic info right. He just drew the wrong conclusions. (Moses lead a group of survivors of the plague out of Egypt. That kind of basics without the full story.) In like kind, the scraps we have from history are significant. Miracles is significant. It made history. The details may be sketchy, but the story is there.

And, the Nicaea Council? Well, if they got it wrong, we've been wrong for close to 1700 years now. Apparently, it is possible for fallible men to figure out the difference between Infallible God and other fallible men. If we kill off that possibility of sometimes they got it right in history, then we kill off trusting those guys to figure out which guys got it right enough to include it in the Bible. (The same theory I go with to trust my instruction manuals for any electrical or electronic gadgets. lol)

As for Azusa Street? Equally as sketchy on the details. Actually plenty of details, but I'm skeptical on what happened and how. Early days of WoF movement, but as much as the beliefs stink, people were healed a lot. So much so, that even if 10% of those people were truly healed it was significant. (Just like Moses coming out of Egypt with plague survivors -- sketchy, but accurate to some degree.) So, no, I don't think most of the people were miraculously healed, and I don't think the gifts were properly applied from a theological view, but God moves through despite Man's intentions. If God wanted to heal someone, he would certainly use theologically unsound people to do it. What's his other choice, since none of us get it fully right? (Well, the obvious other choice is to do it himself, but he doesn't do that.)

And the Jesus Movement? I'm part of that. You're right. It wasn't always theologically sound. It didn't stop God from moving big time. Most of the time it was young people doing the evangelizing and preaching because God saved them and they were passing it on. And they were praying. And miraculous things happened all over the country. Only later did those of us who were truly saved figure out we need good teaching. (Some faster than others. lol)

I believe to tell a good lie, there has to be some truth in it. (The serpent told good lies to Eve -- some truth, but not full truth. Satan told some lies to Jesus -- some truth, but not all truth.) So if a lie isn't a complete and full fabrication, how much more so when people aren't trying to tell a lie? Even if they don't get it all right, there's even more truth to it than a lie. Something has happened in history in the different parts of history we know, where God did miraculous things. And some is still going on.


Bzzzzzz. (The sound of my brain frying. lol) If I keep going after this, I'll be working on fumes, so I take up more tomorrow.

 

[atwhatcost]

Please shorten it to 20000 characters long is part of a message you will get if your post is too long; the first part of the error message tells you how many characters your post is.

Experienced on that already, huh? lol

Actually, I go to other forums that give much less space, so I'm used to not going for the long-haul anymore. 20,000 characters? Wow! That's a novella or a long short story.

 

[Dan58]

Just one? Tough choice. Okay. I pick Francis Schaeffer.


You really don't read much, do you? I've read so many inspired books (knowledge ) written usually in the last 200 years, that I have no idea why you think they don't exist.


Not much for even reading anything on the thread you chose to respond to either, hunh? I already showed one event on this thread. You really don't read much, do you?


Yup, JYO indeed, not based on anything. No books, no reading anything anyone else said, straight up just your opinion. How are you going to change your mind when you haven't even figure out someone already showed a prophetic gift and even published volumes of his insight, when you refuse to read anything to gain knowledge?

I seriously doubt my proof will change your mind, because it's closed tighter than the International Space Station?

So Francis Schaeffer was a prophet? Is the Pope, Joseph Smith, David Koresh, Jim Jones, Ron Hubbard, Ellen White, Margaret MacDonald, also prophets?

An inspired work is not any ole book, but scripture. "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life" (Revelation 22:18-19). I'm not saying there aren't inspirational Christian books, just that they aren't direct revelations given by God.

A true prophet receives revelation from God about future events, the rest is just philosophy, opinion, and interpretation of what has already been written.

 

[Jack]

So Francis Schaeffer was a prophet? Is the Pope, Joseph Smith, David Koresh, Jim Jones, Ron Hubbard, Ellen White, Margaret MacDonald, also prophets?
.

David Koresh wasn't that bad. I've listened to the man preach, and he spoke the gospels well. The government made an example of him because they wanted the devout to feel threatened.

 

[nowyouseem033]

If I can sum up what's being portrayed today in churches it would be:

Tongues spoken today aren't even the biblical account of tongues. Plus they were meant for a sign to the Jews. Today its just jibber jabber, with no interpreter needed? Paul says to shut up if their is no interpreter. He also says to take turns 3 at most speak.. I guess people don't read Paul

Miracles aren't even close to that of the miracles of Acts. They are also unverifiable, and often over dramatized. Maybe these faith healers should go to hospitals and heal the sick but NO!!!. I still know many Christians who aren't healed and they are very strong in their faith... Do I dare say that's its made them stronger not faithless.

Prophecy.. oh boy... Well if its not in line with the bible its false and how could you test it to see if it is of God. And If it were biblical it wouldn't be a prophecy. You would be just speaking to the person about the bible which is just another way of saying that your to lazy to read the bible so God sent me to tell you in person. OOHHH GOD SPOKE TO ME... yes and he speaks to me too. its called the written word, open up and read it!!

 

[convallaria]

If I can sum up what's being portrayed today in churches it would be:

Tongues spoken today aren't even the biblical account of tongues. Plus they were meant for a sign to the Jews. Today its just jibber jabber, with no interpreter needed? Paul says to shut up if their is no interpreter. He also says to take turns 3 at most speak.. I guess people don't read Paul

Miracles aren't even close to that of the miracles of Acts. They are also unverifiable, and often over dramatized. Maybe these faith healers should go to hospitals and heal the sick but NO!!!. I still know many Christians who aren't healed and they are very strong in their faith... Do I dare say that's its made them stronger not faithless.

Prophecy.. oh boy... Well if its not in line with the bible its false and how could you test it to see if it is of God. And If it were biblical it wouldn't be a prophecy. You would be just speaking to the person about the bible which is just another way of saying that your to lazy to read the bible so God sent me to tell you in person. OOHHH GOD SPOKE TO ME... yes and he speaks to me too. its called the written word, open up and read it!!

Perhaps you should describe yourself as a Bible reader, rather than a Christian? When you read the written word, it is supposed to be quick (as in moving, like quicksilver) and powerful...Hebrews 4:12:

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

If you read it like a car manual there is something wrong.

 

[ember]

If I can sum up what's being portrayed today in churches it would be:

Tongues spoken today aren't even the biblical account of tongues. Plus they were meant for a sign to the Jews. Today its just jibber jabber, with no interpreter needed? Paul says to shut up if their is no interpreter. He also says to take turns 3 at most speak.. I guess people don't read Paul

Miracles aren't even close to that of the miracles of Acts. They are also unverifiable, and often over dramatized. Maybe these faith healers should go to hospitals and heal the sick but NO!!!. I still know many Christians who aren't healed and they are very strong in their faith... Do I dare say that's its made them stronger not faithless.

Prophecy.. oh boy... Well if its not in line with the bible its false and how could you test it to see if it is of God. And If it were biblical it wouldn't be a prophecy. You would be just speaking to the person about the bible which is just another way of saying that your to lazy to read the bible so God sent me to tell you in person. OOHHH GOD SPOKE TO ME... yes and he speaks to me too. its called the written word, open up and read it!!

I see.

Nothing like some 21 year old sarcasim to kick start your day.

You get what you give.

 

[notuptome]

My opinion is that they will cease when...

For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
(1Co 13:9-10)


Now we see only an indistinct image in a mirror, but then we will be face to face. Now what I know is incomplete, but then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known.
(1Co 13:12)

When we see Jesus.

Well you have the correct scriptures but an incorrect understanding of them. The reference here is to the OT with the NT being the clearing of the shadows. Seeing through the glass darkly was the OT foretelling now the NT confirming and explaining the OT.

When Jesus referenced the OT scriptures He always referred to them in the present tense. Jesus confirmed the OT scriptures. The NT scriptures built upon that and gave the completed revelation of God.

It's not about us seeing Jesus but about Israel seeing Jesus. Signs and wonders will precede the coming of the Lord for Israel. I would hope the church has already seen Jesus or they have believed in error.

The best option remains the completed canon of scripture as the perfect to which is referred in the passage. History and current practice seems to clearly support the end of tongues.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[ember]

we have a completed revelation of God?

since when?

with our finite minds we have all knowledge and we understand all mysteries? yeah?

the opinion that the Bible is 'the perfect' referred to by Paul in I Corinthians leaves one wondering why there is anything more they need to know

the Bible is what is REVEALED...it is not to be worshipped and it is not perfection on earth

 

[James866]

I Corinthians 12:1 "Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant."
Ignorance and wrong teaching is a major problem in the church in general as well as most significantly in regards to the holy spirit field including manifestations of holy and unholy spirit.

First; Notice the word "gifts" is italicized, that means in KJV that word "gifts" was ADDED by the Translator, and therefore has no divine authority whatsoever.

Jesus declared the Great Commission about signs that would follow believers, including speaking in tongues. Paul said "But the manifestation of the spirit is given to every man to profit withal." I Corinthians 12:7.

In the first century church speaking in tongues and the other 8 manifestations of holy spirit (9 total) were commonly practiced in accordance with the Great Commission. The institution and control of the Catholic church and the general falling away from God, even during Paul's life time, that all Asia had turned away from Paul, destroyed the understanding of much of the Sacred Secrets (mystery; Greek: musterion) which were hidden in God since the world began but revealed to the Apostle Paul for the obedience of the church (See Romans chapter 16; Postscript and all 27 uses of musterion (transliterated "mystery," not a translation).

The church lost the practice, use, understanding, mentoring and benefits (profit) of the 9 manifestations of holy spirit. The Devil has done a good job of causing false teachings, practices and counterfeit manifestations to discredit the genuine operations of holy spirit. At the time of the KJV translation no one knew about the 9 manifestations and how to operate them and how they work. PERIOD.

The "to anothers" has also caused great confusion, which on its face appears to limit manifestations of one to each person.
The gift is holy spirit, and the ability to operate all 9 manifestations is given to every believer. These manifestations are able to operate because of Christ in each believer (Colossians 1:27). But it is for each believer to desire spiritual things that determines a lot of whether they will be operated or not, as well as believing and understanding etc.

The to anothers are actually composed of two different words in Greek, though they appear as the same words in English. Five of the manifestations use the Greek word heteros translated to "another, which means of a different type or quality, or charactoristic, while only different (diverse) kinds of tongues and the manifestation of faith uses the Greek word allos in the Greek, translated again as "another." Allos means of the same kind or charactoristic, quality or type.

The reason for this is a view to who is initially profited by the manifestation; The manifestation of faith is required to operate all of the manifestations of holy spirit, so the person performing the manifestation is profited first, allowing him to carry out God's will in manifesting whatever is needed of the nine manifestations. The different kinds of tongues also first benefits the believer doing it, as it adds great joy and amazement at being able not only to speak on language of men or of angels but many.

The manifestations were designed to operate not only in love, as I Corinthians states in chapter 13:1, but also they are given to each beleiver (Paul said forbid not to speak in tongues, and I would that Ye all spake in tongues, if gift individually, then why would Paul say that, as well as to covet to prophesy and to desire spiritual matters or things in verse 12:1 of first Corinthians?, as well as so that all may prophesy in I Corinthians 14?)

The manfestations come like a clump of grapes, together, and as many as are needed are to be utilized as guided by the holy spirit in any given situation. The total misunderstanding of this has lead to limitation of the power of God being manifested. If all of the manifestations are needed, would God expect 9 different people to have to go to help deliver or minister to someone? Such foolishness, as if God is stupid, not its the teachings and misunderstandings that are stupid.

The Devil's manifestations are carried out without limitations by the Satanists and Luciferians with unfortunately great zeal and effectiveness of evil. The believers should be ashamed of themselves for quenching the spirit. By the way, without bragging but just as fact, I have learned and practiced all nine manifestations for 40 years now, as well as many other beleivers, though we are in a great minority. Many Christians will use the scriptures wrongly as well as other arguments to allow them to believe that all the "gifts" (actually manifestations of holy spirit) are ceased, or that God only gives as He directs, or that you only get one).

I have read whole books on the subject of holy spirit and manifestations, and lots of details are important that are difficult to go into without writing or reading a book of material. I recommend the book by John Schoenheit "The Gift of Holy Spirit, The Power To Be Like Christ" 4th Edition, can be obtained at amazon.com.

 

[notuptome]

we have a completed revelation of God?

since when?

with our finite minds we have all knowledge and we understand all mysteries? yeah?

the opinion that the Bible is 'the perfect' referred to by Paul in I Corinthians leaves one wondering why there is anything more they need to know

the Bible is what is REVEALED...it is not to be worshipped and it is not perfection on earth

God has given all we need and the Holy Spirit leads believers into the truth of Gods word. Perfect in the context of the scripture of which we are speaking is complete. It is not referring to the English usage of the word perfect.

A higher regard for the word of God would do you well in your walk with God.

Scripture teaches that God places His word in very high regard.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

Why this thread is wrong:

Cessationism and Rebellion

You know, Convallaria, I had no idea that your intention on these forms was to defend Continuationism. I truly thought you were under fire simply for claiming to have the gift of tongues.

It did not take long for me to realize my own error in understanding.

An interesting note: Once I realized my own error, you did a complete 180 with regards to your attitude towards me. Your tone went immediately from appreciative and supportive to angry and dismissive.

May my testimony here be an affirmation to those dedicated persons who have gone before me.

Romans 14:1-23 ESV

As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. ...

 

[James866]

Correction; Paragraph 7: not five of the manifestations use.. should read seven of the manifestations use...

 

[James866]

Note: In Old Testament and the Four Gospels only Seven manifestations of holy spirit were available and recorded as practiced/used. With the receiving of the holy spirit on the Day of Pentecost, two more manifestations were added; Speaking in tongues and speaking in tongues with interpretation. Sorry for my error in my original post above of saying five manifestations use...in reference to allos and hetoros. I was posting this from memory and was in a hurry and made a few mistakes inadvertently. THE SEVEN MANIFESTATIONS OTHER THAN FAITH AND DIFFERENT KINDS OF TONGUES USE ALLOS GREEK WORD FOR "ANOTHER, WHILE FAITH AND DIFFERENT KINDS (DIVERSE) TONGUES USES THE GREEK WORD HETEROS FOR ANOTHER. SORRY FOR THE MIX UP.

 

[James866]

It is not insignificant that Jesus foretold about speaking in tongues in the Great Commission, as well as the other signs despite that fact that in the four gospel period, as Jesus was called to the lost sheep of the House of Israel, and that the disciples did have holy spirit, and operated seven manifestations.

Those that quench the spirit and attack tongues and tongues with interpretation (I am referring to when it is genuine and operated correctly), as well as any of the other manifestations have the audacity to think that God adding two more manifestations of holy spirit are insignificant? Why would God add two more that were not available in Old Testament and The Four Gospel period?

God does not ever do any thing on a "whim," or of NO IMPORTANCE.

THE CHURCH TO A GREAT EXTEND IS FALLEN AWAY FROM GOD'S WILL AND DOCTRINES, THESE ARE THE END TIMES. IF SUPPOSEDLY GOD'S PEOPLE DON'T STAND UP NOW AND BELIEVE GOD, THEN WHEN?

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

THE CHURCH TO A GREAT EXTEND IS FALLEN AWAY FROM GOD'S WILL AND DOCTRINES, THESE ARE THE END TIMES. IF SUPPOSEDLY GOD'S PEOPLE DON'T STAND UP NOW AND BELIEVE GOD, THEN WHEN?

'God's doctrines' is an oxymoron. We've been in the 'end times' since the Garden of Eden.

 

[ember]

God has given all we need and the Holy Spirit leads believers into the truth of Gods word. Perfect in the context of the scripture of which we are speaking is complete. It is not referring to the English usage of the word perfect.

A higher regard for the word of God would do you well in your walk with God.

Scripture teaches that God places His word in very high regard.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

a higher regard for other Christians might be in the works for you

you have no business telling others that they do not revere the Bible as much as or quite possibly more than, you do

the problem is that you seem unable to discuss something without digging at people personally...occaisonally some people need a reminder that their remarks are unacceptable

it is unacceptable to berate others because they do not share your opinion

 

[ember]

Re: Why this thread is wrong:

You know, Convallaria, I had no idea that your intention on these forms was to defend Continuationism. I truly thought you were under fire simply for claiming to have the gift of tongues.

It did not take long for me to realize my own error in understanding.

An interesting note: Once I realized my own error, you did a complete 180 with regards to your attitude towards me. Your tone went immediately from appreciative and supportive to angry and dismissive.

May my testimony here be an affirmation to those dedicated persons who have gone before me.

Romans 14:1-23 ESV

As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. ...

this is the type of thing that requires a pm

it sounds like you would like to have an arguement with her in public...you know...give her a good ole thrashing with an audience

you did the same thing to me in the other thread and I told you that I do not accept your remarks or your judgement of me

convallaria does not need me to answer for her, but I am because she is probably asleep over in the UK right now (time diff) and I have seen you making these kind of remarks here in the forums once too often

did all the moderators leave and put you in charge?

stop attacking other believers...discuss the op...not the person...it's making for some real bad atmosphere

people need to learn how to do that...I doubt very much that convalleria had only you in mind when she started these threads...they are open to everyone

 

[convallaria]

Re: Why this thread is wrong:

You know, Convallaria, I had no idea that your intention on these forms was to defend Continuationism. I truly thought you were under fire simply for claiming to have the gift of tongues.

It did not take long for me to realize my own error in understanding.

An interesting note: Once I realized my own error, you did a complete 180 with regards to your attitude towards me. Your tone went immediately from appreciative and supportive to angry and dismissive.

May my testimony here be an affirmation to those dedicated persons who have gone before me.

Romans 14:1-23 ESV

As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. ...

Hi PW,

I think it is pretty clear you had help with your "understanding" of things but not to worry.

This is how I see it:

When we first met you seemed to be a peacemaker on the discussions, which I appreciated very much. You at one point claimed to be new to the faith, and I being new to the forum felt you deserved plenty of latitude if you were going to be a force for peace. You even changed your ID to PeacefulWarrior instead of WoundedWarrior, which was good.

Then at some point I noticed you weren't exactly peacemaking so much as agreeing with everyone, or at least "liking" all the posts. I still thought, not to worry...and encouraged you to spend a little more time reading the word of God rather than agreeing with all, if you remember. God says light cannot have fellowship with darkness so it is a bit worrying to me that you would want to appear to be on everyone's side. That is not so much peacemaking as something a bit cowardly and weak, trying to be buddies with all whether they are right or wrong. But even so I thought, if you truly are new to the faith then so long as you keep reading and praying and holding onto the Lord, you will find the right way.

I actually identified at one point that you seemed to be gravitating towards the "tongue haters" point of view, which really is dangerous for you and anyone else taken in by it, because it is tantamount to denying the Holy Spirit.

Now suddenly you seem to be the expert on what you call "continuism"...and I am suddenly the bad guy for speaking against cessationism. Now I have never heard such a term as continuism before in my life, so you obviously are not so green as you made yourself out to be, if you are using such words with such apparent authority. That is, unless you were actually playing us all and pretending not to know anything. Either way, you suddenly began to defend people who had belittled, insulted and pretty vilely attacked those of us who speak in tongues and have given testimony of such on here. Well I am sorry, but I am not going to be messed about, thank you.

There is no such thing as continuism, there is just the word of God. Whoever got at you has lied to you, and you have swallowed it hook line and sinker.

The word of God (quick and powerful) is the opposite of cessationism (dead and powerless and gone), which makes cessationism heresy.

Now then PW, you need to come away from those people who are trying to teach you error: not for my good but for your good, because it will end badly for you if you don't.

Pray the Lord will guide you into the company of Spirit filled believers who are not afraid to tell you the truth, and get stuck into your Bible as deeply as you can, asking Him to lead you as He has promised, into all truth.

 

[convallaria]

'God's doctrines' is an oxymoron. We've been in the 'end times' since the Garden of Eden.

That is totally wrong PW. Again, you are wanting to appear the expert in something that is completely off the wall and unbiblical. Something really fishy is going on here.