Departure From Oblivion!

[ember]

Oh good grief. Before this is over you will be keeping Passover and all of the Jewish feasts. Paul spent all of his Christian days divorcing the New Covenant from the Old Covenant they are not compatible. This is just another tangent that causes division in the Church.

Paul had the same problem in his day. He was constantly at war with the Judiazers who wanted to drag the New Covenant people back into the confines of the old Covenant. These two mixed together create a hybrid Gospel alien to the teachings of the Disciples.

at the risk of being stoned again by the popular vote on this site, I would like to draw your attention to your words

these: this is just another tangent that causes division in the church

who says? we are having a discussion here and it seems a bomb dropped into it has just gone off

would be lovely to stay on point and ask questions...not make all inclusive statements that create an immediate and understandable wall going up

I just lived through that...please try to understand ...she already stated she agreed with my statement that she does not necessairly believe a revival is in the making

she is asking questions

 

[atwhatcost]

Does anybody know where I can find some hyssop and a lamb? I'm trying to prepare for passover. Thank God it's not until next year. I live in a subdivision so I need to prepare my neighbors to not turn me in for animal cruelty when the time comes.

Hyssop.

Lamb? A kosher butcher? If you really just got to slaughter it yourself, (which I don't get, because I can't even kill mice in my house easily lol), check your ordinances. Dad was a hunter. The neighborhood kids would all collect into our yard when he was butchering a snapping turtle, goose, duck, pheasant, (quails just weren't enough to go gaga over), and to finish dressing deer. (Had to drain them out in the woods, but skinned them in the yard.) If he bagged enough fowl, each kid got a foot to play with. Pull the tendon at the back and you can make the foot tighten into a claw. Push the tendon and the foot relaxed. Big time if you got the snapper's shell, but usually got smashed up, since how else are you getting the meat out?

Check your ordinances first. And try and get a kosher butcher to teach you how to dress a lamb, because, if done right, it's not cruelty. If done wrong, you'll have very sad images of that poor little kid (another name for a lamb, just in case someone thinks I'm talking about sacrificing a child lol), for the rest of your life, like I have the time Dad couldn't kill the duck in the traditional way, so had me help him kill it. NOT a good image, although, if I told the story I can make it funny.

I'm curious though -- why are you going for a Passover meal? And, aren't you afraid of what the blood on the mantle will draw to your house? (She says and then bats away an annoying fly that is wandering our home. lol)

 

[KennethC]

Hopefully I will be able to make this understandable. First of all: John 7:22 says, "For this reason Moses has given you circumcision (not because it is from Moses, but from the fathers",meaning Abraham. Physical circumcision was not instituted in Mosaic Law, but circumcision of the HEART is, which correlates perfectly with Colossians 2:11 which says, "and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;"

​So, when taken in context, we see that this was the the distorted law of the Pharisees rather than the basic Law of God.

Circumcision of the flesh was done and commanded before the Mosaic laws, but it was added to the list of written ordinances of the Mosaic laws to. In the NT circumcision of the flesh is not required as is part of what Acts 15 is speaking of, but that is not the only part of the Mosaic laws that is being referred to here.

Notice how Jesus in this same chapter you are quoting from in John 7 says this also;

John 7:19
Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

Circumcision in the new covenant is of the heart and not the flesh, as there is no requirement for baby son's to get circumcised. Also the Mosaic ordinances had foods that were said not to be eaten, in the new covenant though we are told to eat whatever unless it is offered to idols, strangled, or the blood.

There are other such changes throughout the NT that show the written ordinances of the Mosaic laws do not apply to Gentile believers in the new covenant.

 

[atwhatcost]

I agree with you to some extent, but one has to be careful which laws and commandments we obey and ignore. It is pretty obvious that the rituals relating to the temple are not binding on Christians, or at least I hope no one sacrifices Sheep and oxen in their back yard. I would advise not to stone a disobedient Son to death, however much you might be tempted. We need guidance from the Holy Spirit and some common sense when reading the Bible.

One day my cousin and I were yapping on my other uncle's lawn. (Her father was my uncle too, but we were on his brother's lawn.) This fairly large ugly looking dog walked toward us. At least, at first I thought it was a dog. When it came closer, we realized it was a goat. I've never seen goats anywhere but petting zoos, and both uncles lived in an upper-class development. (Not uber rich, but definitely rich. The lawn we were on was part of a Revolutionary War era mansion, just to give you some idea how rich.)

A goat? Where did a goat come from? So we went to neighbor's homes to find out, which was no easy chore since the small properties only had half an acre, but up in that part of the development people had at least five acres and usually had their homes built in the back near the woods or mountain cliffs.

My cousin and I split up to handle the task, and she's the one who found the goat's owners -- an old Bavarian couple who retired in Central Virginia. The wife thanked my cousin and told her they had just lost another goat the week before. They only had three, plus they had a pond on their property with a huge fallen tree next to it that they used as a bench. The goats were on leashes connected to a stake in the ground. One had jumped the fallen tree and strangled to death.

My cousin said, "Oh no! That's terrible."

The woman patted her and said, "No. Not really. It was quite delicious."

Never assume your neighbors aren't sacrificing livestock in their back yards. lol

 

[atwhatcost]

Sorry no. Being facetious. You forgive me?

Ah man! Outside the problem of how to slaughter a lamb (no way I'm doing that, nor hubby lol) and that we can't digest lamb, I thought it would be interesting to have a true Passover dinner once.

 

[atwhatcost]

I grew up Lutheran and didn't learn any of this in church but when I got bored with Bible study after several years of being a born again Christian, I started digging deeper and found amazing things. I definitely learned more on my own! Then I started telling others what I had learned and that is where I encountered the greatest opposition I have ever seen to the Word of God.

I totally agree with you about knowing the OT to understand the NT better and as far as learning more about those who think Jesus' words don't apply, I would say, "stay tuned" because I seem to have awakened some and I am pretty sure they will tell me about it. I have read old threads from before I joined and I did not find them to be a bashful group of people.

Try reformed writers. They'll help you understand the OT and NT. That's what they do.

 

[atwhatcost]

It would be nice. Looking forward to your posts. Just a quick question though. If this "revival" happens, should we worry about the coming back of "guilt" and " feeling of condemnation". The law tends to make me feel that somehow. I follow the law but not because I follow the law. Following the law is actually the end result of what I do for Christ who saved me; when He fulfilled the law. You know what I mean?

Jesus fulfilled the law. We are safe in his hands. He has freed us from condemnation, and that's why we want to serve him -- know the law -- so we can. We are free indeed! He IS our ability to do God's good. That's the full message. Yippee!!!

 

[KennethC]

well yes...I am well aware of those scriptures, but I have never applied them and never thought them to be applied, to loosing your salvation when you sin...as we all do

and apparently neither do you!

The way I apply the scriptures as I have been lead is that sinning here or there is not going to cost one their salvation as sinless perfectionists state. However if one stays in that sinful state without repenting and confessing of it, but lets it control their life again then that is a whole different situation all together.

James 5:19-20
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and someone turns him back; Let him know, that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

It is not about sinning here or there and confessing that sin, but about continuing to willfully/deliberately keep sinning.

Kenneth...I don't think you and I believe exactly the same, but I think I may start to understand what you are really saying better?

No we may not look at the scriptures the same way and that is okay as even with the little differences we can still have friendly respectful debates. I don't mind the disagreements or differences if the one's I am talking to are this way, it is only those who want to condemn and belittle others for not seeing the same as them that I dislike.

 

[atwhatcost]

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill" (Matthew 5:17). The laws Jesus fulfilled are the ceremonial laws surrounding the Levitical priesthood. All the sacrificial laws (blood letting, circumcision) and the Temple rituals of the Aaronic priesthood were fulfilled. "Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of MelchisedecJesus became our high priest" (Hebrews 6:20). Jesus became our High Priest, our Intercessor, our Passover, our Sacrifice, our Sabbaths, our Sanctuary and Temple. The implementation of all such statutes and ordinances were only applicable to the Temple, they were only a typology of what was to come, and a foreshadowing of what was ultimately fulfilled in Christ. All others laws remain, but the curse of the law was paid in full at Calvary.

How come people take those laws but ignore the ones that still apply morally? It's still good to pay for damages if you hurt a neighbor's animal, still good not to cheat people by not telling them the truth about an item they're buying, still good to take care of family members who come into tough financial problems, even if it was their "fault," and still good to treat workers fairly. There's a lot of law that's still applicable today. I remember a baker's dozen. The reason behind it was to be fair, because sometimes we think we counted 12, but only counted 11. Better to be more fair, than to cheat someone buying from you.

 

[KennethC]

Jesus fulfilled the law. We are safe in his hands. He has freed us from condemnation, and that's why we want to serve him -- know the law -- so we can. We are free indeed! He IS our ability to do God's good. That's the full message. Yippee!!!

Matthew 22:37-40
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment.39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Romans 13:10
Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

 

[atwhatcost]

What does "revival" mean, to you?

A massive coming to God! I'm thinking Jonathon Edwards, Azusa Street, the Jesus Movement and the Welsh Revival. The Welsh revival brought so many people to the Lord that a boy (about 14 years old) was working in the mines several months, came home and asked his parents about a word he heard. It was a curse word. He was 14 and yet that was the first time he ever heard a curse word. Never heard it playing or in school or at home or even in a coal mine for several months, yet he finally heard one. Can you imagine God moving so mightily in a whole country that a kid doesn't hear his first curse word until he's a teenager working in a coal mine for several months?

Jonathon Edwards had a high pitch (squeaky) monotone voice, and preached for six hours. (Halfway through the sermon was a break where everyone went out into the grounds around the church for a mid meal together.) When you hear the phrase "fire and brimstone preacher," that was him! He was the original. (You can find some of his sermons online.) I think his most famous sermon was "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God." Not the happiest of sermons, and yet so many came that there were people at the doorways listening to what he said, turning to the gathering out front and then shouting so everyone can hear. And they heard. And they repented. And they changed. And they returned week after week to hear this monotone high-pitched preacher.

THAT's a revival!!!

 

[shotgunner]

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill" (Matthew 5:17). The laws Jesus fulfilled are the ceremonial laws surrounding the Levitical priesthood. All the sacrificial laws (blood letting, circumcision) and the Temple rituals of the Aaronic priesthood were fulfilled. "Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of MelchisedecJesus became our high priest" (Hebrews 6:20). Jesus became our High Priest, our Intercessor, our Passover, our Sacrifice, our Sabbaths, our Sanctuary and Temple. The implementation of all such statutes and ordinances were only applicable to the Temple, they were only a typology of what was to come, and a foreshadowing of what was ultimately fulfilled in Christ. All others laws remain, but the curse of the law was paid in full at Calvary.

I have to disagree that only the ceremonial laws were fulfilled. How did Jesus fulfill the law? The answer is by keeping it perfectly so that he became our substitute. I am credited for his righteousness, for his law keeping. Jesus kept all the law not just part of it.

Second when Paul speaks of being delivered from the law, he uses covetousness as an example. If we were only delivered from ceremonial laws he would have used that as an example of what we are delivered from.
Romans 7:6-7King James Version (KJV)[SUP]6 [/SUP]But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.


I will say however that being free from the law does not mean we are lawless. The Holy Spirit will lead and guide us into all righteousness. He will lead me where the law previously did. He can guide me in every area of life where the law could not.

 

[KennethC]

I have to disagree that only the ceremonial laws were fulfilled. How did Jesus fulfill the law? The answer is by keeping it perfectly so that he became our substitute. I am credited for his righteousness, for his law keeping. Jesus kept all the law not just part of it.

Second when Paul speaks of being delivered from the law, he uses covetousness as an example. If we were only delivered from ceremonial laws he would have used that as an example of what we are delivered from.
Romans 7:6-7King James Version (KJV)[SUP]6 [/SUP]But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.


I will say however that being free from the law does not mean we are lawless. The Holy Spirit will lead and guide us into all righteousness. He will lead me where the law previously did. He can guide me in every area of life where the law could not.

Jesus said He came to fulfill the law, and how is this done ???

By showing us a better way to walk, and that is instead of focusing on all the ordinances just focus solely on walking in love;


Matthew 22:37-40
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’38 This is the first and greatest commandment.39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Romans 13:10
Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

 

[atwhatcost]

Oh good grief. Before this is over you will be keeping Passover and all of the Jewish feasts. Paul spent all of his Christian days divorcing the New Covenant from the Old Covenant they are not compatible. This is just another tangent that causes division in the Church.

Paul had the same problem in his day. He was constantly at war with the Judiazers who wanted to drag the New Covenant people back into the confines of the Old Covenant. These two mixed together create a hybrid Gospel alien to the teachings of the Disciples.

Knee-jerk reaction much?

Yes, go with your first reaction. Don't dare delve into something. Really don't! It might cause you to think before giving your knee-jerk reaction and we just can't off and be thinking or anything!

(Wait. Who says I'm sarcastic?

)

 

[shotgunner]

Jesus said He came to fulfill the law, and how is this done ???

By showing us a better way to walk, and that is instead of focusing on all the ordinances just focus solely on walking in love;


Matthew 22:37-40
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’38 This is the first and greatest commandment.39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Romans 13:10
Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


Galatians 5:14
For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

I'll agree with you that Jesus gave us a wonderful example but the part that is legally important with God is that he is our substitute. Many can be a good example but only Jesus could be our substitute.

 

[BarlyGurl]

I'll agree with you that Jesus gave us a wonderful example but the part that is legally important with God is that he is our substitute. Many can be a good example but only Jesus could be our substitute.

I beg to differ Shotgun.... perhaps you meant something different but what I glean from your comment is....

"we just walk and Jesus is the substitution for when we are not loving"

... whilst I suggest we are either in CHRIST OR NOT and by his spirit we walk in love. Did I miss something in your intention? Am I showing the distinction?

 

[shotgunner]

I beg to differ Shotgun.... perhaps you meant something different but what I glean from your comment is....

"we just walk and Jesus is the substitution for when we are not loving"

... whilst I suggest we are either in CHRIST OR NOT and by his spirit we walk in love. Did I miss something in your intention? Am I showing the distinction?

I meant that he is our substitute in every way. Yes, we are in him. In him we are not judged by our imperfection but by his perfection. We are not just however in him, he is in us, and yes his love in us is what motivates and moves us. We are not judged by our actions in him however but by our faith in him. It is that faith in him that moves us to righteous actions.

Jesus is our substitute in every way. He suffered where legally, I should have suffered. He is completely righteous and my only righteousness in contained in my faith in him. He died and I died with him. He rose again and I attained eternal life when I rose with him. That's what Paul was saying here.
Romans 6:4-5King James Version (KJV)[SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

And here
Galatians 2:20King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[ember]

what is the fullfillment of the law? and please do not say ooo me ooo me...I have the answer!!! Jesus!

because I think what I am seeing here, is that Jesus is the answer may be the same but the meaning of that answer is not the same

in other words. poster 1 saying 'Jesus' may mean there is nothing left for me to do

poster 2 saying 'Jesus' may mean I need to do the same

poster 3 saying 'Jesus' may mean I rest my case

 

[BarlyGurl]

.....Sheesh!!! have you been fasting????

 

[shotgunner]

what is the fullfillment of the law? and please do not say ooo me ooo me...I have the answer!!! Jesus!

because I think what I am seeing here, is that Jesus is the answer may be the same but the meaning of that answer is not the same

in other words. poster 1 saying 'Jesus' may mean there is nothing left for me to do

poster 2 saying 'Jesus' may mean I need to do the same

poster 3 saying 'Jesus' may mean I rest my case

I see the fulfillment of the law as Jesus having been the only man to have ever kept all the law. In fact the only man who could keep the law not having been born into sin, but being born of a virgin, not having the sin nature of Adam but born of God's word made flesh. Jesus never sinned, therefore kept all the law, therefore fulfilled the law.