Departure From Oblivion!
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A
Where? I honestly think this is a case where you were taught this once, assumed the teacher was right, and hooked onto it. I've done that often enough. I've had to erase much of what I was taught to find what the truth is in scripture. Sometimes when I do that I can ended up right back where I started and find out the teaching was right. Sometimes I don't.
All I ask is you try the same thing, because people are still perverting the gospel.
It's like sending a rocket to the moon. You'll miss it entirely if you start off at a 90 degree angle from the proper trajectory. But you'll also miss it entirely if you're off by one degree. What you've been taught is merely one degree off. At least, I think so. Check out your math to see if you're right. What if it's not about the Law?
All I ask is you try the same thing, because people are still perverting the gospel.
It's like sending a rocket to the moon. You'll miss it entirely if you start off at a 90 degree angle from the proper trajectory. But you'll also miss it entirely if you're off by one degree. What you've been taught is merely one degree off. At least, I think so. Check out your math to see if you're right. What if it's not about the Law?
S
I have to disagree with that.
Romans 3:20King James Version (KJV)[SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Galatians 2:16King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
The law was never intended to be a means to overcome sin. The law was meant to identify sin.
Galatians chapter 1 Paul notices that they are not following what they were originally taught.
Galatians 2:16-21 so the correction begins with the works of the law minus faith is not of grace.
Galatians 3:10-13 Curse of the law
Galatians 4:21 I mentioned before post 183
Galatians chapter 5 how not to be under the law by means of the fruit of the Spirit
Galatians chapter 6 how to fulfill the law
"Yoke of bondage" is only mentioned once in scripture. Galatians 5:1 speaks of Pharisaical doctrine that is not of the law of Moses. Again, physical circumcision was the covenant with Abraham, circumcision of the heart is in the Mosaic law as well as the New Covenant with Christ.
John 7:22
Deuteronomy 10:16
Deuteronomy 30:6
Keeping the law of God by faith in Christ is not a burden as mentioned before. Post 26 quote
So the chronology of Paul's letter to the Galatians is;
1. There is not justification without faith
2. The law defines a curse for those who do not trust in God's Word.
3. Compromising the truth of God's word with other doctrines puts a person under the law.
4. What the truth of the law really is concerning its spiritual content.
5. How to fulfill the law correctly.
The law is God's word. It's how we use it that matters. It has both blessings as well as cursings.
Deuteronomy 28:1-14 blessings
Deuteronomy 28:15-68 cursings
Obviously there is more iniquity in humans than righteousness, (smile) but that doesn't make the law something bad for God's children to continue in that are in the final Covenant with Christ. Observing the law through faith is not going "back under the law." It's just the opposite.
Romans 3:31
Galatians 2:16-21 so the correction begins with the works of the law minus faith is not of grace.
Galatians 3:10-13 Curse of the law
Galatians 4:21 I mentioned before post 183
Galatians chapter 5 how not to be under the law by means of the fruit of the Spirit
Galatians chapter 6 how to fulfill the law
"Yoke of bondage" is only mentioned once in scripture. Galatians 5:1 speaks of Pharisaical doctrine that is not of the law of Moses. Again, physical circumcision was the covenant with Abraham, circumcision of the heart is in the Mosaic law as well as the New Covenant with Christ.
John 7:22
Deuteronomy 10:16
Deuteronomy 30:6
Keeping the law of God by faith in Christ is not a burden as mentioned before. Post 26 quote
So the chronology of Paul's letter to the Galatians is;
1. There is not justification without faith
2. The law defines a curse for those who do not trust in God's Word.
3. Compromising the truth of God's word with other doctrines puts a person under the law.
4. What the truth of the law really is concerning its spiritual content.
5. How to fulfill the law correctly.
The law is God's word. It's how we use it that matters. It has both blessings as well as cursings.
Deuteronomy 28:1-14 blessings
Deuteronomy 28:15-68 cursings
Obviously there is more iniquity in humans than righteousness, (smile) but that doesn't make the law something bad for God's children to continue in that are in the final Covenant with Christ. Observing the law through faith is not going "back under the law." It's just the opposite.
Romans 3:31
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K
Apostle Paul repeats himself to the Galatians in Galatians 2-3 that now having begun in the Spirit why are they trying to be justified by the works of the law (trying to follow the written letter).
He tells them by seeking out their justification by trying to keep the law instead of receiving it by faith in Christ they have been bewitched into false teachings leading them away from the true gospel of Christ.
Apostle Paul says they were in the truth at once in Galatians 1:6 but are now turning away from it, and Galatians 3:2 shows that they have received the Holy Spirit. Yet Paul still says they are not obeying the truth because they went back to the works of the law. He tells them their way is in vain as the law is not of faith (Galatians 3:12).
Galatians 5:1 Apostle Paul calls the law a yoke of bondage once again...................
A
Hows this for not taking it apart (like you do)?
Gal. 2:15 We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we sought to be justified in Christ, we ourselves also were found sinners, is Christ a minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build up again those things which I destroyed, I prove myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law died unto the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.
21 I do not make void the grace of God: for if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nought.
Gal. 3:
O foolish Galatians, who did bewitch you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was openly set forth crucified?
2 This only would I learn from you. Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh?
4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain.
5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed.
9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them.
11 Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith;
12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men: Though it be but a man's covenant, yet when it hath been confirmed, no one maketh it void, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 Now this I say: A covenant confirmed beforehand by God, the law, which came four hundred and thirty years after, doth not disannul, so as to make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no more of promise: but God hath granted it to Abraham by promise.
19 What then is the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise hath been made; and it was ordained through angels by the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could make alive, verily righteousness would have been of the law.
22 But the scriptures shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But now faith that is come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.
28 There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise.
Note where the law comes in. You've been avoiding the tutor! No tutor, no understanding of Christ!
Still want to cut-and-paste your own gospel?
Gal. 2:15 We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we sought to be justified in Christ, we ourselves also were found sinners, is Christ a minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build up again those things which I destroyed, I prove myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law died unto the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.
21 I do not make void the grace of God: for if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nought.
Gal. 3:
O foolish Galatians, who did bewitch you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was openly set forth crucified?
2 This only would I learn from you. Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh?
4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain.
5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed.
9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continueth not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them.
11 Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith;
12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men: Though it be but a man's covenant, yet when it hath been confirmed, no one maketh it void, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 Now this I say: A covenant confirmed beforehand by God, the law, which came four hundred and thirty years after, doth not disannul, so as to make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no more of promise: but God hath granted it to Abraham by promise.
19 What then is the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise hath been made; and it was ordained through angels by the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could make alive, verily righteousness would have been of the law.
22 But the scriptures shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But now faith that is come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.
28 There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise.
Note where the law comes in. You've been avoiding the tutor! No tutor, no understanding of Christ!
Still want to cut-and-paste your own gospel?
>>>>Satan desires the law to disappear because it has power over his tactics.<<<<
.........................YES!!!!!!!!
I agree that "The law was meant to identify sin," but I disagree with your disagreement because of what Jesus taught, and also what He said to the Pharisees who thought they knew the law , but didn't.
Galatians 3:19
The church of today seems to have the same problem, if one doesn't correctly announce the word of truth. "Rightly divide." The hypocrisy is condemning something that is not even known because it's rejected.
"How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?" (John 5:44-47)
Those of us who are defending the law are NOT defending the works of it without faith in Christ. Is Christ divided against His own Father? I think not. John 8:28
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A
I'm confused. Doesn't that bring it back to "Satan desires the law to disappear because it has power over his tactics?" The Law points to our inability and unrighteousness. Why in the world would Satan be pointed to that huge neon light? Kind of like saying, "See? This is why you shouldn't follow me."
K
I have not been avoiding the tutor as the tutor is only in place to bring us to Christ, after coming to the Lord we are no longer under that tutor. The law is no longer valid for New covenant believers, it was only there to show us our sinful ways and need for a Savior, and that Savior is the Lord Jesus Christ.
It is another gospel preached by those who want to make the Mosaic laws still in effect for believers, when the bible calls it a yoke of bondage. We are not under bondage to the law as believers, we are under the perfect law of liberty through Christ's teachings and commands that set us free from the law.
Actually according to children being led to school, a ("tutor" in other translations), a "schoolmaster" (KJV) was a young person in their late teens that led the small children to school. Once the children were out of danger and could find their own way to school they were no longer in need of the "schoolmaster" for they had been taught the correct route earlier. This didn't mean that they had completed all the instructions, they were old enough to find their own way because of faith, and at that point, ready to eat the meat of knowledge, if you will.
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K
>>>>Satan desires the law to disappear because it has power over his tactics.<<<<
.........................YES!!!!!!!!
I agree that "The law was meant to identify sin," but I disagree with your disagreement because of what Jesus taught, and also what He said to the Pharisees who thought they knew the law , but didn't.
Galatians 3:19
The church of today seems to have the same problem, if one doesn't correctly announce the word of truth. "Rightly divide." The hypocrisy is condemning something that is not even known because it's rejected.
"How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?" (John 5:44-47)
Those of us who are defending the law are NOT defending the works of it without faith in Christ. Is Christ divided against His own Father? I think not. John 8:28
You are misunderstanding the purpose of what Jesus was saying there in John 5:44-47, for He was not about keeping the law.
It was about how the OT law and prophecies pointed to the Lord, and by recognizing that they would have believed that Jesus was that Messiah/Savior that was to come to redeem us from our ways.
Just like Apostle Paul expounded on in Galatians 3 that it was a tutor to bring us to Christ, but after Christ we are no longer under that tutor.
You want to keep having that tutor (law) in effect for us, but the scriptures clearly says it is not.
A
Paul was a Pharisee!!! He knew the law. He could recite the entire law. He WAS tutored his entire life on the law.
Seriously? When were we before we knew Christ? I was taught the Ten Commandments by nuns. Did you know one of them says you need to brush your teeth twice a day, comb your hair before school, and take baths regularly -- especially on Saturday nights to get ready for mass on Sunday? (Oh, that's how adultery was dumby-downed to grade school kids, in case you didn't recognize that law. lol) That was the entire extent of my tutoring on the law.
What was yours?
We missed the tutor! We need the tutor! I've already run down a whole bunch of things I simply didn't know. They're not unimportant. They're not void. They were fulfilled in Christ. If he had to fulfill them, instead of dismiss them, don't you think it's important we know what they were/are? If it was all important enough for Jesus to do, don't you think it should be important enough that we do the same thing IN him, because we can't do any of it without him. What we don't know we can't do in or without him! We need the tutoring we sorely missed to follow Christ completely.
Seriously? When were we before we knew Christ? I was taught the Ten Commandments by nuns. Did you know one of them says you need to brush your teeth twice a day, comb your hair before school, and take baths regularly -- especially on Saturday nights to get ready for mass on Sunday? (Oh, that's how adultery was dumby-downed to grade school kids, in case you didn't recognize that law. lol) That was the entire extent of my tutoring on the law.
What was yours?
We missed the tutor! We need the tutor! I've already run down a whole bunch of things I simply didn't know. They're not unimportant. They're not void. They were fulfilled in Christ. If he had to fulfill them, instead of dismiss them, don't you think it's important we know what they were/are? If it was all important enough for Jesus to do, don't you think it should be important enough that we do the same thing IN him, because we can't do any of it without him. What we don't know we can't do in or without him! We need the tutoring we sorely missed to follow Christ completely.
A
Really? How long were you tutored in the law and how? Paul had a few decades of tutoring.I missed those lessons entirely until I came to Christ. Even then I missed the lessons entirely, because some stupid churches kept telling me the OT doesn't matter.
What's your story on tutoring? I don't see you so much as someone who even accepts tutoring -- just someone out to tutor without any proof he's ever been tutored himself. What have I missed about your story?
What's your story on tutoring? I don't see you so much as someone who even accepts tutoring -- just someone out to tutor without any proof he's ever been tutored himself. What have I missed about your story?
I'll make it clear. Either accept it all and live, or reject even part of it and die in your sins because of purposeful rejection. It's that simple.
Deuteronomy 8:3
The law that God gave to Israel is spiritual and God is Spirit and it is still His words, not Moses'. How do we intend to live in Him if we deny anything that He spoke? Are we denying the abolishment of sin by focusing on the abolishment of certain things that God spoke?
Proverbs 30:5
Matthew 4:4
Deuteronomy 8:3
The law that God gave to Israel is spiritual and God is Spirit and it is still His words, not Moses'. How do we intend to live in Him if we deny anything that He spoke? Are we denying the abolishment of sin by focusing on the abolishment of certain things that God spoke?
Proverbs 30:5
Matthew 4:4
K
Romans 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
The law had its purpose to point out our sinful ways and need for a Savior, and that Savior being the Lord Jesus Christ.
After we have come to the Lord Jesus Christ we are no longer under the law, we are under grace, and the above scripture from Apostle Paul says what the law says is to those who are under the law. Being as how we are not under the law but under grace the law does not apply to us. We walk by the Spirit and not by the oldness of the letter of the law !!! (Romans 7:6)
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
The law had its purpose to point out our sinful ways and need for a Savior, and that Savior being the Lord Jesus Christ.
After we have come to the Lord Jesus Christ we are no longer under the law, we are under grace, and the above scripture from Apostle Paul says what the law says is to those who are under the law. Being as how we are not under the law but under grace the law does not apply to us. We walk by the Spirit and not by the oldness of the letter of the law !!! (Romans 7:6)
K
We only accept it to the fact that it pointed out our transgressions to bring us to Christ, it was never intended to be 100% obeyed or you would not receive eternal life.
If that is the case then you have nobody going to heaven as even the Apostles mentioned that they did not keep it all 100%, and said it is an impossible yoke that was not to be put on the new Gentile believers.
Apostle Paul calls the Mosaic laws a yoke or spirit of bondage multiple times, and states we are not under the law.
No matter how you try to speak it you are still trying to put believers under the law, nowhere in the bible does it say if you don't keep the Mosaic laws to obey them you are condemned.
I think I specified that "party" might have been a bad choice. I simply mean participants.
I think it's the understanding of many Christians that it's NOT the same contract - it has been replaced. As Baptism replaced circumcision. How do you keep a contract that has conditions for God's approval and then incorporate an unconditional love from this same God? It's a contradiction. It's not the same, from my understanding, it has been replaced. And the application/understanding of the Law is not the same. As Paul said, the Law is not sin simply because it convicts/condemns sin. It's not altogether void of purpose - however, it should be balanced because of it's very tendency to incite sin.
I'm not sure where I argued or even implied this, unless you're proposing an idea.
I don't really intend to enter the debate, perse. We are not discussing anything that hasn't been discussed by believing minds far more enlightened than ours - but still confused.
My take right now is that we are partners with God, in designing our life and destiny. But without God, nothing of pure motivation and love can be done, because He IS love. So the best way to improve life is to have God in your life - and I'm not saying which god or which Scriptures, or whatnot, but a higher purpose, particularly of personal nature.
The Law is not love - it is condemnation, because it doesn't praise and it doesn't edify, it only corrects and reveals sin. Plenty of people have read "Thou shalt not murder" and yet go and murder. The Law in and of itself does NOTHING to improve an individual. That's why "return to the Law" concerns some people, esp when you are leaving out of this argument Christ and forgiveness for when one breaks the Law... because they will. And ultimately, the answer many levels against the "watered down Law" is that you are excusing sin. I never knew God to give mankind the authority to judge sin, anyway, not in a manner of salvation requirements or retribution. But man sure loves to take upon himself this role.
We love because HE loved. We draw our feelings and motivations of love from Him. I'm not posing HOW that is done - through Scripture, the Spirit only, both, what religion etc. I am only saying that usually an extreme approach to anything ultimately ends in the opposite extreme pushing back. You end up creating what you pushed hard to squash out... just like the Church, she thrived and with her inspired love and purpose pushed back against hatred and grew. But that's not the same, what we are talking here.
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