Free Will true or false?

[NazariteNation]

I think the problem is people confuse God knowing every choice every person is going to make with election. The Bible tells us that God knows who is going to be saved or not, the Book of Life, but that doesn't mean each person doesn't still have the choice. We all have free will, even while we are slaves to sin.

Foreknowledge doesn't equal election.

Amen. I think a lot of people struggle with the fact that God exists outside of time and is capable of seeing every situation to "the beginning from the end". God knows exactly who will answer His call yet still He calls upon everyone because it is in His character to give everyone an opportunity.... "For it is God's will that not one should perish" also "to each is given a measure of faith"... what you do with it is entirely up to you.

 

[roaringkitten]

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:8

God knows everything past, present, and future. Whether people realize it, He is not bounded by time.....Time is of use to us humans who are bound in the 5 senses....But not to God....Because He is the Everlasting.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.". Hebrews 11:1

 

[dodolah]

You are born into sin, therefore, how did you have a choice?

Do you think a child raised by a prostitute, abused sexually at an early age with pimps and drug addicts as his or her early environment would truly have a free will equal to a pators' kid? Do you think someone born in Saudi Arabia where its illegal to own bibles and raised by parents who drill Islam in your head from the earliest of ages has the same free will or ability to choose as someone born in the US with a church on every corner?

There is a fallacy in reasonings of born into sin without having a choice.
In that case, are you saying you have no choice but to sin? that it is beyond your power? Thus, you are not responsible of the sins you've made?


Weirdly, I say yes to all your questions.
I have a choice to accept Jesus as my savior or not.

I wasn't born in Saudi Arabia; but, I was born in another country where Islam is the majority. In fact, I did read the Koran and I understood the "fatwa." and, I can actually chant the islamic prayers for maghrieb in full (I involuntarily memorized the whole prayer since they sing the prayers outloud everyday, they put the prayers in ALL TV channel and radio channel; so you cannot escape from hearing it).

Of all that... I still grow close to Christ. I read the bible, I compare it with Koran, and I found the truth.

 

[moyadim]

"I have a choice to accept Jesus as my saviour or not" You are wrong. This is not biblical. "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain." John 15:16 There is a difference in Greek between "sin" and "sins' (plural). Sin (singular) is referring to the sin nature that you are born with that you inherited from Adam "Therefore as by the offense (sin) of one (Adam) judgment came upon all men to condemnation (death) Romans 5:18. The word "sins" refers to individual acts of defiance against God's law. The sin nature is what causes you to sin. You have sins that your not even aware of until he reveals it to you. "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." I John 1:8 It is not a fallacy of reasonings, its scripture. You were born into sin. Original sin is one of the fundamental doctrines of Christianity. Its not even disputed anymore. Put your Koran away. There is nothing to compare. Your planting seeds of destruction in your life. You reap what you sow. Why read a book of lies?

 

[dodolah]

"I have a choice to accept Jesus as my saviour or not" You are wrong. This is not biblical. "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain." John 15:16 There is a difference in Greek between "sin" and "sins' (plural). Sin (singular) is referring to the sin nature that you are born with that you inherited from Adam "Therefore as by the offense (sin) of one (Adam) judgment came upon all men to condemnation (death) Romans 5:18. The word "sins" refers to individual acts of defiance against God's law. The sin nature is what causes you to sin. You have sins that your not even aware of until he reveals it to you. "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." I John 1:8 It is not a fallacy of reasonings, its scripture. You were born into sin. Original sin is one of the fundamental doctrines of Christianity. Its not even disputed anymore. Put your Koran away. There is nothing to compare. Your planting seeds of destruction in your life. You reap what you sow. Why read a book of lies?

AHAHAHA..
I for one is the kind of person who actually research first before condemning anything.
I read Koran because I am curious and of course by nature i am comparing it to the bible.
I wonder why you assume that I am still reading Koran?
I have read it and come to a conclusion that the bible is the truth.

As far as free will goes, go ahead and believe what you want.
And, I'll believe what I conclude as the truth.
God that specifically condemn people to go to hell is an awful God and imo not worthy to be worshiped.

Your God might do that, but my God said:
[SIZE=+1]II Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance". [/SIZE]

GOD that forces people to worship Him and created His children only for the sake of filling the lake of fire is an oximoron God.
If that is the truth, He felt to me like a little kid with a giant magnifying glass and see us, humans, as ants to be burned.
If this is the truth, then imho, Lucifer has the right to rebel. What an injustice things this kind of God made.
Predeterminism constitute human as nothing more than an animal to God that only exist for the sole purpose of His perverted and selfish desire.

What about the baby who died too early? They have original sin.. of course, that means they are destined to go to hell, right?
I wonder what kind of parents that would still believe in God's love when they heard a pre-determinist priest saying to them, "I'm sorry dear, your baby is going to hell anyway.. nothing I can do."


But, thank heavens, that is far from the truth.
[SIZE=+1] I Timothy 2:4 says, "Who desires all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth"

[/SIZE]

 

[moyadim]

I agree with you. Just don't tell anyone in your church, they will show you the door. However, your missing my point. Some are chosen KNOW for salvation. This doesn't mean everyone else will end up in hell. The name of Jesus didn't even enter the western hemisphere until 1492. Millions of Indians lived and died here until that time. They hardly had a chance to hear about the gospel. According to western christianity, they are all in hell. That is foolish, to say the least. You didn't address the scriptures I posted. opinion doesn't matter. "you didn't choose me but I chose you". That is indisputable. Let me give you another, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48) Try and dispute that one. The reason Armeniasm was the choice in the west over Calvanism is because of this issue. Christians can't believe God would preordain someone to hell. That is the problem with their doctrine concerning hell. They don't know what the Bible actually says. According to the west God is involved in an eternal war with his own creation (Satan) over the souls of men. According to that, Satan is clearly winning (about 2 billion Christians in the world of a 6.5 billion population). According to the Bible, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (I Cor. 15:22) This is Paul's entire theology concerning the first Adam and the last Adam. He uses the same comparisons between the two Adams to teach in Romans 5. "but sin is not imputed when there is no law" Rom. 5:13 How can sin be counted against your muslim brothers if they only had the koran. Is that God's law? God sees all of mankind in two ways. In the first Adam or the last. All of mankind is still in the first Adam, we have the sin nature. When man is resurrected, he wil be in the last Adam and have the body of Christ. The next time a christian tells you about everyone in hell, ask him which one? In Greek there are 3 words for hell in the New testement; gehenna, greek form of the valley of Hinnom; hades and tartaroo. In Hebrew just Sheol which is translated 33 times hell and 32 times grave. When he can't answer your question tell him to be careful then about sending everyone there. Oh, and by the way, according to this same perveted theology, most of the Jews of the last 2000 years will be in Hell forever. They died having not accepted Christ. They would have a legal right to accuse God. He made eternal covenants with them.

 

[roaringkitten]

"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain." John 15:16

"We love him, because he first loved us." 1 John 4:19

As Christians we bear fruit. We were commanded to do so. To those that one day place faith in Jesus Christ he's chosen us Christians to be the ones to bear fruit....He could have chosen rocks to bear His fruit, or trees, or animals, but he chose Christians to shine the glory of Jesus to all the world!

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." Romans 8:29

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Revelation 22:17

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:13

Whosoever means ANYONE can place their faith in Jesus Christ....To preach one cannot, is teaching heresy!

"Predestined" is such an abused word today. So much confusion about it. When the Lord clearly defines those He FOREKNEW(all those that would place their faith in Christ) ....

 

[roaringkitten]

In other words God does not predetermine who he chooses to be saved, but he foreknew who would ultimately place faith in Jesus Christ! Predestined in context is talking about Christians chosen to bear fruit....Not that God cherry picked who the Christians would be....

 

[KingDavid]

Jeremiah 18:1-10 talks a great deal about free will our choice and/or a nations choice to do good or evil and what God would do in each case

 

[phil36]

Baptistrw, I think you are confused between the difference of 'free will' and 'self determination' there is a huge difference. Can we honestly say we have 'Free will/choice' when it comes to spiritual matters when we are dead to sin? as stated above read Ephesians 2:1-9 or just read Romans 9.

Phil

 

[Baptistrw]

Baptistrw, I think you are confused between the difference of 'free will' and 'self determination' there is a huge difference. Can we honestly say we have 'Free will/choice' when it comes to spiritual matters when we are dead to sin? as stated above read Ephesians 2:1-9 or just read Romans 9.

Phil

Um, no, I'm not.

 

[farouk]

Phil36:

Frankly, there is no getting round passages such as Ephesians 2 and Romans 9.

We need to guard against our capacity to 'receive meekly the engrafted word' being corrupted by fashionable political and religious notions.

God bless.

Baptistrw, I think you are confused between the difference of 'free will' and 'self determination' there is a huge difference. Can we honestly say we have 'Free will/choice' when it comes to spiritual matters when we are dead to sin? as stated above read Ephesians 2:1-9 or just read Romans 9.

Phil

 

[roaringkitten]

Baptistrw, I think you are confused between the difference of 'free will' and 'self determination' there is a huge difference. Can we honestly say we have 'Free will/choice' when it comes to spiritual matters when we are dead to sin? as stated above read Ephesians 2:1-9 or just read Romans 9.

Phil

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?" Romans 10:13-14

"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." 1st Timothy 2:4

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9


In the verses above, Romans declares ANYONE can call upon the Lord, 1st Timothy tells us it is His desire for all to be saved(although many WILL perish in the lake of fire), and 2 Peter tells us that He is not willing for ANY to perish! How can God make these claims if he cherry picked who would be saved from the beginning? Again, I stress to read the Word in CONTEXT. Anyone teaching God cherry picked who would be saved in advance is teaching dangerous heresy. And to those who teach He died only for the elect is believing and teaching a LIE!

"And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again." 2 Corinthians 5:15

"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men," Titus 2:11

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
1 John 2:2

God gives a STERN warning for those who should pervert these truths:

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in ****able heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." 2 Peter 2:1

 

[Abing]

Re: Free Will true or false?

True!

Deuteronomy 30:15-18
15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God,and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him."
2 Timothy 2:21,1 Timothy 6:12,1 Corinthians 9:24 Romans 2:10 and so many others

When we say Free will is false, then we are contradicting God's word.
God is just. (Isaiah 26, and many others)
If so, then ... you know what I mean.
That whosoever believeth in Him (John 3:16)
If so, then ... it's obvious.
God wanted you to choose good rather than evil (Joshua 24:15, and many others)
If so, then ... yeah.

If there was no free will...
Question: Luke 6:46 " 46And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?"
Answer: I say, because you don't have freedom to do those things. (Could be because you weren't meant to do the things Jesus say)

Lk 9:5 " And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them."

If there wasn't free will, then why oh why do we have to tell the people to repent!? (Acts 3:19 19Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,).

 

[farouk]

"I am more naturally inclined to believe than others, so that is why I am saved."

Well, I would never say that. Depsite the rebellion of my heart, God in grace drew me to the Cross. Ephesians 2.8&9.

Take care.

 

[kselby]

god created us witha free will........yes it is true god can see into the future...but this does not mean that our fate is pre-destined....you could not say that it is my destiny to die in a car crash or that god has destined me to a life of riches or sorrow...we all create our own destiny.yes it was god original purpose for humans to live on the earth forever...but this does not mean that all will have this ...only those doing the will of the father.

 

[farouk]

I think we need to guard against getting our faith definitions from fashionable political and religious ideas and rather go to the Scriptures alone, the sure guide, for matters of faith.

 

[jjkg]

It says in the Word that it is God's will that no one should perish, yet we know that the reality is that people still do (eternal hell). To say that God predestines people to eternal condemnation is frankly, absurd. Why would it be God's will to save everyone and yet, at the same time, predestine people to go to hell? I think the term "free will" is kind of a deceptive term anyway. We really have no freedom without Christ. The bible says we are/were 'slaves to sin' until we accept Christ's sacrifice for our sins, and when we are reborn unto Him we are to be 'slaves unto righteousness'. But I think that is where the freedom lies, in the fact that accepting Christ allows for us the freedom to now worship/live for Him.

 

[phil36]

The term freewill is confusing, what actually does this mean?? If before we are saved we are 'children of wrath' and that we obey satan (which means we do not obey God) Ephesians ch2.

Read Ephesians Ch1 :3-5. Someone above has stated that it would be hard to belive that God would predestine some to perish, is that really what scripture says? No, of course not, we have ourselves to blame for perishing (again read Ephesians ch2:1-3, it is by God's grace that we are saved, we all deserve death, Don't we?

What does the English word 'Whosoever' mean, does it mean everyone? God does not wish that anyman perish of course he doesn't but who's fault is it if we all perish, is it God's?? of course not!

Farouk, you stated you are more 'Natural inclined to belive' and that is why you are saved, is that true? remember what scripture says, you were dead to sin and a child of wrath so if you are correct are you saying that God vreated some to be more naturally inclined to belive in Jesus and the rest arent so they will perish?

jjkg, I agree 'free will' is a deceptive term as we are only free in Christ our Lord and Saviour. And, yes we were slaves to sin, so if you are slave to sin and obey the devil can you have true free wil as some would have us belive to be the case in chosing?

I agree to an extent we have free will ie, in the fact i can choose wich colour of shirt i will purchase and what colour i want to paint my bathroom or what i am going to eat for breakfast, but we are missing a more serious point here. we are dead in sin, slaves to sin and we obey satan, our whole nature is bent on evil (although we are not all as evil as we could be due to Gods good grace).

If salvation in Christ, ultimatley rest on the responses of the fallen humankind to the invitation of the gospel, we might despair of anyone ever being saved. People who are dead to sin, at enmity with God, who walk in the ways of the prince of the power of the air, would never make a positive response to the gospel. Christ would be a saviour without having saved anyone. That is, if this view of mans own ability to choose God unaided, or choose Christ without the predestinating grace of the Father to make that certain, is the case.


What about Jesus' prayer in the upper room, when he thanks the Father for those whom the Father has given him, and his exclamation of the confidence that all that the Father has given him 'WILL' come to him. (not, they might come to him) John 17.

I know some people find free will and the Sovereignty of God Hard to fathom, I struggled myself.

On another point I am not sure what you mean farouk by political and religious ideas (where did you get your free will ideas, truthfully?)
, there was no problem of predestination/election until pelagian came on the scene and argued with Augustine (as far as i am aware), and we know that palagian was a heratic.

Kselby, I am really confused by your comment, so is your life just a wildcard?? If you are living Gods will, did he just make that up on the spare of the moment, or are you in charge and God is just standing by idly watching you? do you not God has a will and purpose for your life and he will guard your steps???

Abing are you saying God belives in the freewill of man and that man can choose his own destiny, didnt adam and eve do that? John 3:16 uses 'whosever' what does that word mean, and you are right God does not wish that any man perish but as we know and the Paul states many times, we have ourselves to blame for that. we all deserve to perish, dont we?

Abing i think you are slightly confused as to why we need to tell people of the need to repent, it is Gods word, its the words that vibrates the heart of a sinner its how God reaches those 'WHOSEVER' he wills. so does that sound unfair??? are you saying God is unfair?????

Did not God question Job along the lines of ' who are you 'o'man to question me?'

if we belive that we make the choice for salvation are we saying that we truly can truly weigh up the evidence and make the proper choice ie obey God rather than the devil, since our nature is sinfully invlined?

anyhow i apologise now if i have miquoted, and for my spelling and grammer, I hope and pray that i have said this in love , I am not a learned man as some of you will be, i am not an academic but I belive int he sovereignty of God and i doubt if fallen man could ever choose life.

Your humble brother in Christ

phil

 

[farouk]

phil36:

Thanks for taking the trouble to comment on what I posted.

Actually, if read carefully, what you referred to from my post was precisely what I don't believe. I was indeed 'dead in tresspasses and sins' (Ephesians 2) before the Lord wondrously intervened in grace.

Take care.

The term freewill is confusing, what actually does this mean?? If before we are saved we are 'children of wrath' and that we obey satan (which means we do not obey God) Ephesians ch2.

Read Ephesians Ch1 :3-5. Someone above has stated that it would be hard to belive that God would predestine some to perish, is that really what scripture says? No, of course not, we have ourselves to blame for perishing (again read Ephesians ch2:1-3, it is by God's grace that we are saved, we all deserve death, Don't we?

What does the English word 'Whosoever' mean, does it mean everyone? God does not wish that anyman perish of course he doesn't but who's fault is it if we all perish, is it God's?? of course not!

Farouk, you stated you are more 'Natural inclined to belive' and that is why you are saved, is that true? remember what scripture says, you were dead to sin and a child of wrath so if you are correct are you saying that God vreated some to be more naturally inclined to belive in Jesus and the rest arent so they will perish?

jjkg, I agree 'free will' is a deceptive term as we are only free in Christ our Lord and Saviour. And, yes we were slaves to sin, so if you are slave to sin and obey the devil can you have true free wil as some would have us belive to be the case in chosing?

I agree to an extent we have free will ie, in the fact i can choose wich colour of shirt i will purchase and what colour i want to paint my bathroom or what i am going to eat for breakfast, but we are missing a more serious point here. we are dead in sin, slaves to sin and we obey satan, our whole nature is bent on evil (although we are not all as evil as we could be due to Gods good grace).

If salvation in Christ, ultimatley rest on the responses of the fallen humankind to the invitation of the gospel, we might despair of anyone ever being saved. People who are dead to sin, at enmity with God, who walk in the ways of the prince of the power of the air, would never make a positive response to the gospel. Christ would be a saviour without having saved anyone. That is, if this view of mans own ability to choose God unaided, or choose Christ without the predestinating grace of the Father to make that certain, is the case.


What about Jesus' prayer in the upper room, when he thanks the Father for those whom the Father has given him, and his exclamation of the confidence that all that the Father has given him 'WILL' come to him. (not, they might come to him) John 17.

I know some people find free will and the Sovereignty of God Hard to fathom, I struggled myself.

On another point I am not sure what you mean farouk by political and religious ideas (where did you get your free will ideas, truthfully?)
, there was no problem of predestination/election until pelagian came on the scene and argued with Augustine (as far as i am aware), and we know that palagian was a heratic.

Kselby, I am really confused by your comment, so is your life just a wildcard?? If you are living Gods will, did he just make that up on the spare of the moment, or are you in charge and God is just standing by idly watching you? do you not God has a will and purpose for your life and he will guard your steps???

Abing are you saying God belives in the freewill of man and that man can choose his own destiny, didnt adam and eve do that? John 3:16 uses 'whosever' what does that word mean, and you are right God does not wish that any man perish but as we know and the Paul states many times, we have ourselves to blame for that. we all deserve to perish, dont we?

Abing i think you are slightly confused as to why we need to tell people of the need to repent, it is Gods word, its the words that vibrates the heart of a sinner its how God reaches those 'WHOSEVER' he wills. so does that sound unfair??? are you saying God is unfair?????

Did not God question Job along the lines of ' who are you 'o'man to question me?'

if we belive that we make the choice for salvation are we saying that we truly can truly weigh up the evidence and make the proper choice ie obey God rather than the devil, since our nature is sinfully invlined?

anyhow i apologise now if i have miquoted, and for my spelling and grammer, I hope and pray that i have said this in love , I am not a learned man as some of you will be, i am not an academic but I belive int he sovereignty of God and i doubt if fallen man could ever choose life.

Your humble brother in Christ

phil