Orthodox Christianity

[crossnote]

All Christians (born again) are saints, meaning they have been sanctified or set apart for God's purpose.
The Holy Spirit has sealed those who are His, we are not sealed by some ecclesiastical hierarchy.

 

[Cassian]

Ahwatukee,

First of all, men do not assign saint-hood to other men. Two, by claiming that saint-hood is designated to those who
live exemplary lives would be to infer good works equals saint-hood. When a person receives Christ, they become
a saint from that moment on through faith and not by works.

Well, actually they do. Protestants are the only ones that have no saints that one can emulate or model ones life. We are justified by faith, we are not "saved" by faith alone. It is the works through faith that saves. You will give an account of your works, NOT your faith.

In regards to prayer, the following was given by Jesus:"This, then, is how you should pray:
“ ‘Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come, your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today our daily bread. And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation,but deliver us from the evil one."
"But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." (Matt.6:6)
"We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you" (Col.1:3)
"I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better." (Eph.1:17)
"Since you call on a Father who judges each person's work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear."
(1 Pet.1:17)
"Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." (Matt.26:39)
Jesus prayed to the Father only and every example is the apostles praying to God the Father. You will not find any examples like this praying to dead saints nor to angels nor to Mary. Praying to anyone else but the Father in the name of his Son is following after the traditions of men. In this case, it is following after Roman Catholic dogma. In Revelation, that the prayers of the great tribulation saints are being offered up by the four living beings and the twenty four elders does not constitute praying to saints who have died and now in heaven. We can pray to God the Father in the name of our Lord for our living brothers and sisters here and they for us, but we are not pray to those saints who have passed on for intercession, for they cannot speak to God on our behalf. That's Jesus office.
All prayer should be directed to God the Father in the name of his Son, Yeshua Hamashiach.
My prayer for you is that you would come away from the traditions of men.

However, it does not address the topic that we are commanded to pray for others, and that we can supplicate others to pray for us. One of your misunderstandings is the use of the word "pray". You are also confusing the distinction between mediate and intercede. This is also not about RCC dogma. If you are going to argue against something you aught to understand what you are arguing against.
Your interpetation of Rev is incorret as well. Where do you think they got those prayers they are presenting?
Actually, the concept of "traditions of men" is what you are proposing. Given the scriptural and historical practice it is modern man's inposed interpretation of scripture to not ask that constitutes traditions of men. Asking saints in heaven to pray for us is from very early Church history. Long before the RCC ever came along. The consensus and authority of the Church is as unchangeable as scripture since both are the work of the Holy Spirit within Christ's Body. After all, the very Bible you are using was given to you by the consensuss of the Church. Same as the decision in Acts 15:28.

It is not a requirement to attain eternal life but one surely has missed some important principles of application of our creation as human beings, the Trinity, Incarnation, Resurrection and life in the Church.

 

[jamie26301]

I never said Christ was divided, where did you come up with that? Red herring = logical fallacy.

I think she means divided as in you have your "alive" saints and your "dead" saints. Divided as in you distinguish one saint from another in how you approach them. It doesn't make sense to distinguish them when the only difference is not being in bodily form, but still conscious and bonded in spirit. Jesus even talks of death as "only the body" and not the soul in terms of murder.

 

[Magenta]

Thank you.

You are welcome

That's unavoidable,

I disagree. Slagging me for using the Bible as an authority and then turning around to cite the Bible as an authority is not only contradictory but shows very poor character.

The context I quoted from you was dealing with honoring saints. Do you meditate on the actual lives of the writers of Scripture? If you knew them better, had more sources on them, would you honor them? (By honor, I simply mean to show recognition as someone of who has left a godly mark on the world. A poem about them, a mention of their name while leading a prayer, etc Putting extra effort into saying "I did not personally know this believer, but as my sister/brother in Christ I admire this or that")

John the baptist said, "He must become greater; I must become less," Or, "He must increase, but I must decrease." But you err if you think that in honouring those who penned Scripture means we are to pray to them for anything, let alone to intercede on our behalf. That has been under discussion, whether it is Scriptural to pray to dead people. The dead know nothing. Of course, the Catholic and those who hold similar views will claim that Mary is not dead, but that is not a Scriptural view either, and no doubt we shall be chastised on holding to Scripture when their demonic tradition says otherwise.

 

[Cassian]

Canonized saints is simply a made up classification contributing to the works righteousness system of both Rome and the East. Not Scriptural.

According to you. Can you cite any authoritative council with the Holy Spirit's blessing that made that designation? Or is it just your personal opinion?

 

[Magenta]

According to you. Can you cite any authoritative council with the Holy Spirit's blessing that made that designation? Or is it just your personal opinion?

Please give Scripture to show canonizing of saints is Holy Spirit sanctioned and not just demonic tradition/opinion. Thank you.

Praying to the dead is strictly forbidden in the Bible.

 

[jamie26301]

You are welcome

I disagree. Slagging me for using the Bible as an authority and then turning around to cite the Bible as an authority is not only contradictory but shows very poor character.

I was making a broad statement, and I only skimmed the posts. I only mean that there are decisions you will make in your life that the Bible may guide you in, but will not tell you verbatim what to do.

But I can understand being unnerved about getting criticised for something the person then turns around and does themselves. The divide over Scripture as sole authority and as "co-authority" if you will, is extremely tough because it is more perspective than something you can point to and say "now it's irrefutable."

John the baptist said,

He must become greater; I must become less," Or, "He must increase, but I must decrease."

John's role in leading the way was closing. People were going to Jesus more and to him less, and his followers were concerned about this and asked John about it. Yes Scripture means a lot to me, but without context it is easily to manipulate.

But you err if you think that in honouring those who penned Scripture means we are to pray to them for anything, let alone to intercede on our behalf.

My point with not every detail being in Scripture would suggest that may apply to spiritual things as well. And like I said earlier, different believers have different ideas for the same generic words - what do you mean by pray?

That has been under discussion, whether it is Scriptural to pray to dead people.

The dead know nothing.

The context, Ecclesiastes, is addressing a certain situation in light of death. And it is not addressing believers vs unbelievers.

Of course, the Catholic and those who hold similar views will claim that Mary is not dead,

What do you mean by dead? Bodily, sure, but the idea of canonized saints is that eternal life upon death doesn't disconnect those believers from the Body still on earth. Those who believe in Christ will never die, remember. (John 11) Scientifically speaking you could say believers are dead, but biblically, not as much.

but that is not a Scriptural view either,

You don't think Mary was granted eternal life upon her passing?

demonic tradition says otherwise.

I've witnessed plenty of tradition being held above or in addition to Scripture in my walk through Protestant churches.

I do know that the Scriptures testify of Christ, He said so. So to me, the idea that all these other things are of such great importance in Scripture - enough to stigmatize and split - are not THAT important. Just my opinion.

 

[Magenta]

What do you mean by dead? Bodily, sure, but the idea of canonized saints is that eternal life upon death doesn't disconnect those believers from the Body still on earth. Those who believe in Christ will never die, remember. (John 11) Scientifically speaking you could say believers are dead, but biblically, not as much.
You don't think Mary was granted eternal life upon her passing?

Scripture nowhere promotes the view of the soul being immortal. Eternal life is found in Jesus Christ alone. To say believers never die is not Biblical, either. We shall be resurrected from what, otherwise? Those whose names are found in the Lamb's book of life, those who heeded the call to repentance, do not pass into the second death. It is called the second death because we do die a first death. The first is temporary, as is this life. The second is not.

 

[Cassian]

Please give Scripture to show canonizing of saints is Holy Spirit sanctioned and not just demonic tradition/opinion. Thank you.

Praying to the dead is strictly forbidden in the Bible.

So far, all of your comments have not really been directed at the issue. Your comments are based on your interpretation of scripture and not as it has always meant from the beginning.

Whatever the Church does is of the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit moving through the Church. It is all based on Acts 15 and the Council of Jerusalem.

Where does scripture anywhere forbid praying to dead saints?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hello Everyone.
May the Father of Lights illuminate us and lead us into the Ever-Eternal Light of His Son Jesus. Amen.

I am interested in learning more about the Orthodox Church. I have done some study in the past, but stopped for various reasons. Last night I watched a video on Youtube about Frank Schaeffer (Francis Schaeffer's son), and his reasoning on converting to Greek Orthodoxy. Why I Converted To Eastern Orthodoxy : Author Frank Schaeffer - YouTube

I would like to talk to actual Orthodox Christians around the world. I already know of a few Orthodox Christians on CC. One question I have is the Churches view of Mary as Theotokos. Can someone please explain?

Also, to Protestant Christians: I am not interested in various refutations of Orthodoxy that you may believe are refutations. Thank you.

Love you all, for God is Love.
SoliDeo

From what I gather orthodox is nothing but a popeless catholic. I must wonder though, why you came in here, and not into an orthodox chatroo, or webpage, if your truly looking for what they believe? Like Crossnote. me thinks you have alterior motives.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hello! I'm so glad to hear you're interested in Orthodoxy! Being born and raised in an Antiochian Orthodox home, I can say that Alexandr did a good job of explaining the Theotokos to you. Simply put, without Mary, where would we be? Unlike the common belief, no, we do not worship her. We honor her as the mother of our Lord and Savior who said yes. We ask her to pray for us, but we do not pray TO her. I hoped this helped! And again, thank you for being interested in Orthodoxy! It's the best part of my life; it's so deep and abounding with riches.

May Gid continue to guide you as you go on this journey of faith.

where would I be without mary?

The same place I am now. Only difference would be I would be taught Jesus had a mother named (insert whatever name of the woman whome God chose instead of mary) and not mary.

Jesus is what saved me, not mary. Mary is a sinner who was saved by her son. who was chosen by God for whatever reason. nothing more, nothing less.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I actually beg to differ. The Orthodox Church isn't a spin off of the Catholic Church. There was only one church after Christ, and in 1054 the church split into orthodox and catholic. Protestants came from the catholic.

well you would be wrong. but thats ok. Opinions are welcome. But open minds and humble spirits are what we need.

 

[Grandpa]

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

I suppose you could pray for dead saints. But not to dead saints.

Our Prayers are directed to the Lord alone.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Protestantism is a branch of Roman-Catholicism, not eastern christianity.

The Catholics have ex-communicated the whole eastern christianity in 1054 because they refused to submit to Pope's totalitarian authority.

Thank God we have the true body of Christ, which is neither protestant, catholic or orthodox.

If not for that, we would all still be bowing down to the vicar (ceasar) of rome.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

With regard to the bold section; What do you mean? Of course Mary was Jesus' mother.

Edit: Oops I just realised this is an old thread. Wouldn't have posted had I realised...

lol I just saw that myself. I love it when these old threads are rehashed..

 

[Is]

No.
People, meaning the Church assigns that designation to certain individuals who have lived exemplary lives In Christ.

Yeah, and look at all those priests that looked like they were living exemplary lives until they found out they were molesting children.

 

[Cassian]

Yeah, and look at all those priests that looked like they were living exemplary lives until they found out they were molesting children.

Ah, but that was the RCC not the Orthodox. There is a difference, becoming ever more and more distant.

However, we are also all sinners in need of forgiveness and mercy. I would assume that no Protestant has ever molested children.

 

[Is]

And yet there are many sola scripturists, and denominations that do not hold to that theological fact. Some use the term but have an altogether different concept of the Incarnation. Even the RCC has changed the meaning.

So what! That's all they are is denominations, they are not Christians.

 

[crossnote]

According to you. Can you cite any authoritative council with the Holy Spirit's blessing that made that designation? Or is it just your personal opinion?

Let me ask you, since it's not in Scripture, where did it come from?

 

[Magenta]

So far, all of your comments have not really been directed at the issue.

So far I have multiple times asked of you what you demand of others and you refuse to comply, instead contradicting yourself time and time again showing that even your own standard is useless.