Orthodox Christianity

[sydlit]

•Originally Posted by Cassian Protestants should stop asking others to pray for them, at least you would have a consistent theology.•

Aren't praying TO someone, and asking someone to pray FOR you 2 different things?
And speaking of inconsistant theology, doesn't roman theology consider protestants to be 'separated brethren' somehow? What does that even mean? Are they part of, or outside of, the church-the body of Christ? Are they hellbound or heavenbound? Are they separate, or brothers in Christ?

 

[Cassian]

Ok, thx, cassian. I know you have your beliefs, and im sure you know i have mine, tho i have alot to learn. And i know this is not a 2way chat but an open forum, so i hope others add to it. And i dont want to seem confrontational or against you personally, but if you consider all of the above, (catholic, protestant, ortho, etc.) to be christians, then what seems to be the problem? Why are some required to 'invoke' the 'saints' but others dont have to, yet they're all christians? And can it be ANY saints, or is it limited to only certain ones that a subdivision of the over-all 'christian umbrella' has appointed necessary or acceptable to invoke?

I don't know if you noticed but just using the name "Christian" does not make one a Christian.

Also, it is NOT a requirement to ask a Saint to intercede for you. In other words it is not dogma.
It is preferable to use the Saints that the Church has Canonized, but also not a requirement.
It is just the same as asking someone living in this temporal world you know to pray for you. It is not a requirement

 

[Ahwatukee]

Ok, thx, cassian. I know you have your beliefs, and im sure you know i have mine, tho i have alot to learn. And i know this is not a 2way chat but an open forum, so i hope others add to it. And i dont want to seem confrontational or against you personally, but if you consider all of the above, (catholic, protestant, ortho, etc.) to be christians, then what seems to be the problem? Why are some required to 'invoke' the 'saints' but others dont have to, yet they're all christians? And can it be ANY saints, or is it limited to only certain ones that a subdivision of the over-all 'christian umbrella' has appointed necessary or acceptable to invoke?

Greetings Sydlit,

If I May, nowhere does the word of God teach that believers are to pray to saints. Unlike Roman Catholicism, which teaches that sainthood must be obtained by performing good works, true believers become saints at the moment they receive Christ. Furthermore, those saints who have died cannot intercede for living believers, for there is only One who intercedes on our behalf and who sits at the right hand of God, Jesus Christ. Neither are we to pray to angels, but only to God in the name of his Son. By praying to saints or angels, you are seeking something other than God.

Hope this helps

 

[Cassian]

•Originally Posted by Cassian Protestants should stop asking others to pray for them, at least you would have a consistent theology.•

Aren't praying TO someone, and asking someone to pray FOR you 2 different things?
And speaking of inconsistant theology, doesn't roman theology consider protestants to be 'separated brethren' somehow? What does that even mean? Are they part of, or outside of, the church-the body of Christ? Are they hellbound or heavenbound? Are they separate, or brothers in Christ?

The word "pray" does not have as its first meaning to converse with God. We just have habitually used it that way only today. It means to entreat, to ask, to supplicate. You can do that with a person here on earth or in heaven.

Orthodox consider both RCC and Protestants as not being in Communion with them. They would be outside of the Body of Christ.

 

[Magenta]

Orthodox consider both RCC and Protestants as not being in Communion with them. They would be outside of the Body of Christ.

Orthodox consider only themselves as being the Body of Christ?

More of your unsound belief. I suggest you read your Bible.

 

[Is]

As an Orthodox Christian who converted in January, I can tell you a few things. We refer to the Holy Virgin as the "Theotokos" or Mother of God because that is what she is, she gave birth to God in the flesh, Christ. Christ, as we see him, is another person of the Holy trinity who are three persons in one God, Christ being the Word of God who took flesh inside the Holy Virgin. What the Orthodox church does that all other churches don't do is actually venerate the Theotokos, we have icons of her, we ask for her intersession/help, we celebrate her rise into heaven to sit on Christ's right hand, etc. But to make a long story short, like I said, Theotokos just means "Mother of God" in Greek, it's original form. If you have any other questions, I do have a few book recommendations, I can assist you as much as I can, but like I said, I've only been an Orthodox Christian for about 6 months now, but, I also know that many Orthodox Church websites have an outline of Orthodoxy. I hope this helped, and may God bless youAlexandr

We refer to the Holy Virgin as the "Theotokos" or Mother of God because that is what she is, she gave birth to God in the flesh

This is not biblical. The Lord God Almighty has no mother, since He has no beginning and no end (Genesis 1:1; Revelation 4:8).

 

[Cassian]

Orthodox consider only themselves as being the Body of Christ?

More of your unsound belief. I suggest you read your Bible.

You mean as you interpret it, not as it was given by the Apostles and preserved and guarded by the Holy Spirit.
Please show from scripture that Christ is divided.
Show from scripture that the faith is multi-faceted.
Can you give any evidence that it is "unsound"?

 

[Cassian]

This is not biblical. The Lord God Almighty has no mother, since He has no beginning and no end (Genesis 1:1; Revelation 4:8).

May I assume then that you do not believe in the Incarnation of Christ?
I would need to assume that Christ is NOT one with the Father and the Holy Spirit, the Trinity.

 

[Is]

May I assume then that you do not believe in the Incarnation of Christ?
I would need to assume that Christ is NOT one with the Father and the Holy Spirit, the Trinity.

I do believe that Jesus was God incarnate.

Mary was the mother of his humanity or of the man Christ Jesus, a mother of God would have to be in existence before God, which is impossible! The Bible states that God is eternal and had no beginning. God can have no mother and still be God. Also, there can be no person who existed before God. Therefore, there is no Mother of God. This is why we never read in the Bible that she is the Mother of God, but only that she is Jesus' mother or the mother of Jesus, as identified in Scripture:

Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. (Mark 3:31)

Now Jesus' mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd. (Luke 8:19)

They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers. (Acts 1:14)

 

[Magenta]

Please show from scripture that Christ is divided.

I never said Christ was divided, where did you come up with that? Red herring = logical fallacy.

Show from scripture that the faith is multi-faceted.

Please show from Scripture what I already asked you hours ago. I gave 16 Scriptures to counter your demonic claim that we should not be doing what the Bible clearly says we should. Can any Scripture be given to show we are to pray to dead people, or ask dead people to intercede on our behalf?

 

[Magenta]

It is preferable to use the Saints that the Church has Canonized, but also not a requirement.

Do you have any Scripture to back this idea that it is people who decide who is a saint?

 

[Cassian]

I do believe that Jesus was God incarnate.

Mary was the mother of his humanity or of the man Christ Jesus, a mother of God would have to be in existence before God, which is impossible! The Bible states that God is eternal and had no beginning. God can have no mother and still be God. Also, there can be no person who existed before God. Therefore, there is no Mother of God. This is why we never read in the Bible that she is the Mother of God, but only that she is Jesus' mother or the mother of Jesus, as identified in Scripture:

Then Jesus' mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. (Mark 3:31)

Now Jesus' mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd. (Luke 8:19)

They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers. (Acts 1:14)

The reason that the 2nd Ecumenical Council declared that the Mary was the mother of God, the Theotokos, was to ensure that the understanding of Christ's humanity could not ever be denied. It was the answer to Nestorius who was claiming that Christ was NOT God. That Christ was a created being. It is fundamental to understanding historical Christology.

 

[Cassian]

I never said Christ was divided, where did you come up with that? Red herring = logical fallacy.


Please show from Scripture what I already asked you hours ago. I gave 16 Scriptures to counter your demonic claim that we should not be doing what the Bible clearly says we should. Can any Scripture be given to show we are to pray to dead people, or ask dead people to intercede on our behalf?

Unlike your methodology of deduction by using a text as a source of ideas, and as a how-to manual you will not find anything that says it explicitly. It is implied, inferred based on the understanding of the Body of Christ, His Incarnation, the fact that souls are alive and active in heaven. God is Lord of the Living, not the dead. Christ is the resurrection and the Life. Death has been conquered and we are unified in one Body that exists both in heaven and on earth.

We are instructed to pray for others, to enjoin others to pray for us, there should be no objection to enjoin the saints in Heaven to intercede for us.

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Hebrews 12:22-23 "You HAVE COME to Mount Zion, and to the city of the Living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to the myriads of angels, to the general assembly, and the Church of the first born who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and the spirits of righteous men made perfect.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Rev. 5:8 …the four living creatures and the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb, each on having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, WHICH ARE THE PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]James 5:16: "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man accomplishes much." The saints are perfected in heaven and continue to do what they did on earth: offer up prayers and supplications to God on behalf of their brethren in Chri[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]It is the foundation of Trinitarian Theology: We are created for communion. God is Three persons in one essence.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]God IS communion, we are created in His image. Intercession is communion, sharing a common life, humanity and being connected to one another through Christ. Orthodoxy: No one is saved alone. "Where two or three are gathered"; I Tim. 4:5 "You are sanctified by the Word of God and prayer" Acts 1:14 Disciples were in one accord in prayer and supplication. I Cor. 12 baptized into one body, the Church, all members of one another, Vine and branches, share a common source of life/the same life in Christ. We, as Christians, MUST share in the sufferings and life of other Christians, and will continue to do so after death.


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]All Protestants have rejected the Apocrypha or Deuterocanonicals but they shed light on the practice of Invocation of the Saints. Tobit gives a valuable insight into popular Jewish spirituality in the century or two before Christ. The writer has the angel Raphael say, "When you and Sarah your daughter-in-law prayed, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I brought remembrance of your prayers before the Holy One... I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints, and who go in and out before the glory of the Holy One."[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]2 Maccabbees 15:12 Judas Maccabbees sees a vision of the departed Onias praying for the Jews, and the Prophet Jeremiah also prays for them and appears to him and gives him a golden sword to conquer [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]with. This is why the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus would have made sense to Jesus’ Jewish audience. They believed that the dead can communicate among themselves and with those who are on the earth. This was the belief that the early Christians brought into the Church and saw affirmed in Christ as indicated in Revelation, Hebrews, etc.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]LXX was the "Bible of the NT Church" which contained the Apocrypha. Jude 9, Michael and Satan; 2 Tim. 3:8 Jannes and Jambres. The Apocrypha was used for instruction and doctrine.

Part of the problem of understanding it correctly is that Protestants have been so anti RCC and assume that all the incorrect things the RCC does applies to others who hold the same view.[/FONT]

[/FONT][/FONT]I can understand your confusion. Every denomination has a different understanding of who is Christ. You have a multitude of differing faiths that supposedly all are members of the Body of Christ. Nothing in scripture supports such a view.

There is ONLY one Body of Christ. It is the Body, the Church that He established here on earth. It is the same Church that still exists today, unified and unchanged, As scripture states, One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism.

 

[Cassian]

Do you have any Scripture to back this idea that it is people who decide who is a saint?

No.
People, meaning the Church assigns that designation to certain individuals who have lived exemplary lives In Christ.

 

[Magenta]

No.
People, meaning the Church assigns that designation to certain individuals who have lived exemplary lives In Christ.

On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Scripture tells us who are the saints: everyone who has received Jesus Christ by faith is a saint.

 

[Is]

The reason that the 2nd Ecumenical Council declared that the Mary was the mother of God, the Theotokos, was to ensure that the understanding of Christ's humanity could not ever be denied. It was the answer to Nestorius who was claiming that Christ was NOT God. That Christ was a created being. It is fundamental to understanding historical Christology.

All one has to do is read John 1:14 to figure that out without all the ecumenical gymnastics.

 

[Magenta]

Unlike your methodology of deduction by using a text as a source of ideas, and as a how-to manual you will not find anything that says it explicitly. It is implied, inferred based on the understanding of the Body of Christ, His Incarnation, the fact that souls are alive and active in heaven. God is Lord of the Living, not the dead. Christ is the resurrection and the Life. Death has been conquered and we are unified in one Body that exists both in heaven and on earth.

And you base this on what if not the Bible? Your imagination, I suppose, or the imaginings of others apart from Scripture, so you are on dangerous ground. You clearly contradict yourself. Also a plain reading of Scripture which I know you are against since you just denigrated me for using the text as a source, but regardless, a plain reading of Scripture will inform you that a soul is the breath of God combined with the physical body.

We are instructed to pray for others, to enjoin others to pray for us,

Why then tell us not to pray for others? You contradict yourself again.

there should be no objection to enjoin the saints in Heaven to intercede for us.

Aside from the fact that it is not Scriptural at all.

No one is saved alone.

Were you saved in a group? Interesting.

All Protestants have rejected the Apocrypha or Deuterocanonicals

Really? Another interesting assumption on your part.

The Apocrypha was used for instruction and doctrine.

The Apocrypha was ADDED by certain people... it was not originally considered inspired by anyone.

Part of the problem of understanding it correctly is that Protestants have been so anti RCC and assume that all the incorrect things the RCC does applies to others who hold the same view.

Can you tell us all the things the RCC does wrong?

I can understand your confusion. Every denomination has a different understanding of who is Christ. You have a multitude of differing faiths that supposedly all are members of the Body of Christ. Nothing in scripture supports such a view.

You are confused. Nothing in Scripture supports your view that nobody outside your exclusive group is saved.

There is ONLY one Body of Christ. It is the Body, the Church that He established here on earth. It is the same Church that still exists today, unified and unchanged, As scripture states, One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism.

Oh, so now it is okay to get your ideas from Scripture? You should make up your mind.

 

[atwhatcost]

they are the only ones that do not practice "invocation of the Saints". All others, Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Roman Catholic practice "invocation of the saints".

Baptists don't either.

 

[crossnote]

Nice text but it has nothing to do with intercessory prayer.
Also, I would guess that you actually pray the Lord's prayer where you are praying to God and not to Jesus. If ONLY Jesus can mediate(your definition) then you are incorrectly praying.
In addition I would suggest that all Protestants cease from praying for others and stop asking others to pray for them. You have a very inconsistent theology.

The Lord's Prayer was given before Calvary. We now have access to the throne of Grace thru the One Mediator. That's where my prayers go. Besides, last time I checked Jesus is God.

Jesus is the ONLY MEDIATOR, and you have given me no Scripture showing otherwise.

Praying FOR others and praying TO others are totally different, the former is acceptable the latter isn't unless it is to God.

 

[crossnote]

No.
People, meaning the Church assigns that designation to certain individuals who have lived exemplary lives In Christ.

Scripture trumps 'people', 'councils', 'traditions' and 'magisteriums'