Legalism's Mistake: Confusing Cause & Effect (Sanctification)

[eternally-gratefull]

Maybe if everyone stop posting for a bit and just prayed together they would see you and the ok pretty much have the same stance?

The dirt slinging really makes me sad. Gonna go pray for y'all and spend time with family and friends. May everyone remember that we are to listen twice as much as we speak..two ears one mouth and to pray for God will not our own pride to shine forth.

You need to spend more time listening to him. 90 percent of the time, He is right on target, Like what he just said.

But then the other 5 percent he wil go and say even if we have all these things, we can still lose it (and lose salvation) which means he still teaches a performance based salvation. It is just suttle sometimes.

 

[FreeNChrist]

It's easy to take the "high road " when you're not down in the trenches.

 

[ember]

I remember a message in church about 5 years ago. Legalism and licentiousness both come from the same foundation, and that is pride. Sadly neither of them will admit that they have failed to meet Gods standard, and their only hope is Christ. Both have the foundation of I am good enough. I believe in Jesus so he will not condemn me. I do not do these sins, so as Long as I keep myself clean, I will be ok.

Thing is though, that you are calling Christians here legalists who are not legalists

I do not do these sins, so as Long as I keep myself clean, I will be ok

That is false. No one has said that.

 

[Josefnospam]

why not call legalism the law. Keeping of the law. "For as many as are under the works of the law are under the curse" Galatians3:10 Now I don't know about you but I believe the scripture and am free of the curse. Can you say the same. You can if Christ has given you the spirit of life. " Oh that men would praise the Lord for his goodness and wonderful works to the children of men" KJV in book of Psalm.

 

[Stephen63]

A sinner IS what a sinner DOES. Practice sin, without thought of who it will affect or its consequences. We have witnessed those practicing sin by deliberately twisting what people are, what they've done, & what they believe. DECEIVERS.

Those who practice deceit to humiliate a believer OBVIOUSLY isn't practicing righteous living. I guess by their own "belief system", they were never saved to begin with, for that is what they proclaim.

I don't think I would believe this group's doctrine with so many practicing sinners in it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Thing is though, that you are calling Christians here legalists who are not legalists

Who? Name one person who believes in the truth if the power of God to,

1. He who begn a good work in you WILL CONTINUE it until the day of Christ.
2. by One sacrifice he HAS PERFECTED FOREVER those who are being sanctified.

So name one? WHo teaches this who I am calling a legalist?

That is false. No one has said that.

I hear it in here all the time, and people like you deny they ever said it.

Ken says it over and over when he claims as long as he stays in an active faith and does not fall back into a lifestyle of sin, he will be saved.

Yet you and he will deny he ever said it?

Your reading comprehension maybe?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A sinner IS what a sinner DOES. Practice sin, without thought of who it will affect or its consequences. We have witnessed those practicing sin by deliberately twisting what people are, what they've done, & what they believe. DECEIVERS.

Those who practice deceit to humiliate a believer OBVIOUSLY isn't practicing righteous living. I guess by their own "belief system", they were never saved to begin with, for that is what they proclaim.

I don't think I would believe this group's doctrine with so many practicing sinners in it.

A sinner is one who has broken a command of god. He at that point has fallen short of the glory of God. and is in danger of hellfire, Unless that sin is redeemed.

So what redeems that sin? According to the law it had to be the blood of a goat or sheet or ram. So what redeems our sin?

 

[FreeNChrist]

Does anyone have anything else to add on the mistakes of Legalism? What else do you find wrong with it? Is sanctification at the heart of the issue or is it more than that? Is it a lack of faith in the finished work of Jesus? Do they treat salvation like a race where Jesus has passed us the baton and said, "Go for it."? Is the Good News just too good for them?

Another mistake, reconciliation. Many think of reconciliation as God doing His part and us doing our part. But we do not reconcile ourselves to God, rather, we are to be reconciled (2 Cor 5:20), that is, we are to accept what God has already achieved for us.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Another mistake, reconciliation. Many think of reconciliation as God doing His part and us doing our part. But we do not reconcile ourselves to God, rather, we are to be reconciled (2 Cor 5:20), that is, we are to accept what God has already achieved for us.

I think John (the one who teaches on eternal life the most) said it best.
John 1:12 [SUP]12 [/SUP]But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

We did not give our self the right to be called children of God. God gave that right of sonship to us. Not because we were good people. because we earned it, Because we lived up to some code. But because WE RECEIVED HIM, why did we receive him? Because WE TRUSTED HIM.

 

[FreeNChrist]

A sinner IS what a sinner DOES. Practice sin, without thought of who it will affect or its consequences. We have witnessed those practicing sin by deliberately twisting what people are, what they've done, & what they believe. DECEIVERS.

Those who practice deceit to humiliate a believer OBVIOUSLY isn't practicing righteous living. I guess by their own "belief system", they were never saved to begin with, for that is what they proclaim.

I don't think I would believe this group's doctrine with so many practicing sinners in it.

Ironic....

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ironic....

what group has practicing sinners in it?

John said a child born of God can not practice sin.. So who born of God can practice sin?

as you said,, Ironic......

 

[BenFTW]

To the Op,
I am not going to address either side of this issue, even though I had several posts marked to do so. What I want to address is the SIN that motivates these threads.

The opening statement "seems" to be innocent enough, yet is slanted with bias. Never mind the subject matter, it is slanted.

Neither the Op, nor others on the Op's side, EVER speak against those on their side that stirs up trouble for the other side. Never.

Instead, the Op & the others put their "likes" on the wicked slanderous remarks that are made by such wicked people. Wicked is what wicked does.

Then, the Op states openly that he agrees & believes the same things as the wicked people. Does the sin of association ring a bell?

In the end, this looks like a "good cop/bad cop routine adjusted to push personal agenda, & of course, to say "I'm right, & you're wrong."

When one of the group (just one, but usually more) is mean spirited, obnoxious, & haughty with their statements about how the opposing person is an uneducated so-&-so, The reader only needs to see that the behavior of these people is truly evil & those that openly agree with them are no better.

Matthew 5:3-12 (KJV) [SUP]3 [/SUP]Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

I actually stated in response to KennethC that there was some bias in the OP, so you are not stating anything I myself haven't already pointed out. We all have our biases, so do you, clearly, in this very post calling certain Christians wicked. You even go on saying I agree with wicked people... what were you saying about slander? You then accuse me of sin by association. Lots of allegations and accusations, how very kind of you. It seems you might want to look in the mirror for the wickedness you say others have.

 

[weakness]

Yet you teach salvation can be lost. Which means it must be earned.

What causes the gift to lost (what ever work it is one must do or not do) is not the question. The mere fact that the work is required is what matters.

Do not say your not trying to earn salvation, when you teach salvation can be lost (must be earned)[/QUOTE/.Where does obedience come into play? Is it a work to? To know to do good and not do it to him it is sin. God desires obedience more than sacrifice. I believe that the creation reflects attributes of God. Where in the creation do you see results of anything without effort? It says even God worked six days then rested. He that doesn't work is a sluggard or slothful. Even in the world a lazy person is not looked upon favorably. I personally think there is a time to work and a time to wait on God. This either or situation being forced upon us is by nature controversial. There are times in my life that God's grace is working and I don't even know it and other time I feel he wants me to do something ,or work. Why does it have to be one or the other? I think there are some here that are into this doctrine and do stir up strife. I know a common denomination that hold this doctrine and are one of the most legalist and condemning bunch of people I know. I think the grace people are not represented in truth, or the legalist for that matter.I feel like an evil spirit is moving and shaking this conversation ,and not to God's glory. Just look at things that have been said, pushing the limit of civility for the world to see. I, It's not Jesus for sure, it's shameful . Why doesn't every body pull back and pray about this a few days?

 

[FreeNChrist]

Where does obedience come into play? Is it a work to?

Good question. In the new covenant "obedience" takes on a radical new meaning....the "Word" to be heard and obeyed is a Person, the living Lord Jesus Christ. It is not law-based obedience that focuses on keeping rules and regulations, as the old covenant concept did. It is our receptivity of Christ that is our "obedience of faith", as we listen under Him in order to discern what He wants to do in us and through us. That is not a work that gains us acceptance or favor with God, it is our privilege as children of God.

To know to do good and not do it to him it is sin. God desires obedience more than sacrifice.

Actually it is mercy that God desires more than sacrifice.

I believe that the creation reflects attributes of God. Where in the creation do you see results of anything without effort? It says even God worked six days then rested. He that doesn't work is a sluggard or slothful. Even in the world a lazy person is not looked upon favorably. I personally think there is a time to work and a time to wait on God. This either or situation being forced upon us is by nature controversial. There are times in my life that God's grace is working and I don't even know it and other time I feel he wants me to do something ,or work. Why does it have to be one or the other? I think there are some here that are into this doctrine and do stir up strife. I know a common denomination that hold this doctrine and are one of the most legalist and condemning bunch of people I know. I think the grace people are not represented in truth, or the legalist for that matter.I feel like an evil spirit is moving and shaking this conversation ,and not to God's glory. Just look at things that have been said, pushing the limit of civility for the world to see. I, It's not Jesus for sure, it's shameful . Why doesn't every body pull back and pray about this a few days?

There are many things we "do", as Christians. But none of them are meritorious works. Nothing we "do" in any way prompts, induces, elicits or solicits God's grace activity. God always initiates and solicits our response, and the response He solicits is always that of faith. The beauty of the Christian life is that Christ is the dynamic of His own demands and the expression of His own expectations. Our "part" is to live by faith in Him, being receptive to His grace activity.

As to the rest, truth is important. If truth sets us free, then it follows that error binds us. We are exhorted to earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints (Jude 1:3). The amplified version defines "earnestly contend" as, "fight strenuously". Contend earnestly is a powerful expression that stresses the need to defend the truth continually and vigorously.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Where does obedience come into play? Is it a work to?

Eph 2: 10. For we (who were saved by grace through faith and not work) are his workmanship created for good works. Obedience is fruit.

To know to do good and not do it to him it is sin. God desires obedience more than sacrifice. I believe that the creation reflects attributes of God. Where in the creation do you see results of anything without effort? It says even God worked six days then rested. He that doesn't work is a sluggard or slothful. Even in the world a lazy person is not looked upon favorably. I personally think there is a time to work and a time to wait on God. This either or situation being forced upon us is by nature controversial. There are times in my life that God's grace is working and I don't even know it and other time I feel he wants me to do something ,or work. Why does it have to be one or the other? I think there are some here that are into this doctrine and do stir up strife. I know a common denomination that hold this doctrine and are one of the most legalist and condemning bunch of people I know. I think the grace people are not represented in truth, or the legalist for that matter.I feel like an evil spirit is moving and shaking this conversation ,and not to God's glory. Just look at things that have been said, pushing the limit of civility for the world to see. I, It's not Jesus for sure, it's shameful . Why doesn't every body pull back and pray about this a few days?

If you think through self effort you can even help one iota to make yourself worthy of standing in front of a holy and righteous God. Then you have more problems than I can help you with.

Me, I will continue to be the one on my knees. Thanking God for his mercy to me, a sinner.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Here's C. J. Mahaney explaining the mistakes the legalist makes, some of which agrees with what has already been brought up;

Legalism involves seeking forgiveness from God, justification before God, and acceptance by God through obedience to God. Legalism is substituting, in essence, my works for Jesus’ finished work. Legalism is self-atonement and the height of arrogance. It’s living as if the cross of Christ was unnecessary or insufficient.

Legalism is seeking to achieve forgiveness from God and acceptance by God through obedience to God. In other words, a legalist is anyone who behaves as if they can earn God’s approval and forgiveness through personal performance.

The implications of legalism are staggering in their arrogance. Legalism claims that the death of Jesus on the cross was either unnecessary or insufficient. It essentially says to God, “Your plan didn’t work. The cross wasn’t enough and I need to add my good works to it to be saved.”

Here’s the mistake the legalist makes. He confuses his own ongoing participation in the process of sanctification with God’s finished work in justification. In other words, he thinks that godly practices and good works somehow contribute to his justification. But God’s Word is clear when it says, “Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law…” (Romans 3:20). None of us earn God’s approval and love by our good works. None of us can add to the finished, complete work of Jesus on the cross. He paid the price of our sins. He satisfied God’s wrath… The legalist allows his performance of spiritual duties to become his preoccupation and source of self-righteous pride. In doing so, he unwittingly walks away from the main thing – the gospel.

 

[BenFTW]

Legalism also misses out on the love of God, its as if God's love letter (the Bible) to them is conditionally stated rather than a full expression of His heart towards them. The plan of reconciliation is not a full embrace but a distant thing to one day obtain, when yet God wishes to have this intimacy today. Its sad, the veil is broken but religion would have it sown back up.

 

[Stephen63]

I actually stated in response to KennethC that there was some bias in the OP, so you are not stating anything I myself haven't already pointed out. We all have our biases, so do you, clearly, in this very post calling certain Christians wicked. You even go on saying I agree with wicked people... what were you saying about slander? You then accuse me of sin by association. Lots of allegations and accusations, how very kind of you. It seems you might want to look in the mirror for the wickedness you say others have.

Sin is sin..... twisting a person's statements to belittle him is underhanded & deceitful. The Bible teaches us that if a "christian brother" sins, the brethren are to approach that brother & do their best to convince him to repent & be restored.

I've approached you, for you have not done that for your sinning "brother". You should have already, regardless of this disagreement on doctrine. If you are who you claim to be, you have to, & you know it. If you don't, you are going down that same road he is & will eventually be doing the same things..... actually, IMO, you have already started, & so has your educated lady friend.

If he isn't restored, then he never was saved in the first place according to your doctrine, & you have been conspiring with someone who "came out from us, but was not of us." Where then does that place you? What side are you really on? True christians know a true child of God cannot live a gray life..... we're either clean, or we're not.

Those that refuse to be restored are to be treated as a heathen & a publican (Matt. 18:15-17) You, then, must restore him or disassociate yourself from him. If either you or your lady friend doesn't, you both will have proven yourself to be like him.

If I were you, I would do the right, scriptural thing, whether you are the real deal or whether you want to continue to keep people believing you are. Be either righteous or a shrewd fake, but don't be a fool.

What's it gonna be?

 

[BenFTW]

Sin is sin..... twisting a person's statements to belittle him is underhanded & deceitful. The Bible teaches us that if a "christian brother" sins, the brethren are to approach that brother & do their best to convince him to repent & be restored.

I've approached you, for you have not done that for your sinning "brother". You should have already, regardless of this disagreement on doctrine. If you are who you claim to be, you have to, & you know it. If you don't, you are going down that same road he is & will eventually be doing the same things..... actually, IMO, you have already started, & so has your educated lady friend.

If he isn't restored, then he never was saved in the first place according to your doctrine, & you have been conspiring with someone who "came out from us, but was not of us." Where then does that place you? What side are you really on? True christians know a true child of God cannot live a gray life..... we're either clean, or we're not.

Those that refuse to be restored are to be treated as a heathen & a publican (Matt. 18:15-17) You, then, must restore him or disassociate yourself from him. If either you or your lady friend doesn't, you both will have proven yourself to be like him.

If I were you, I would do the right, scriptural thing, whether you are the real deal or whether you want to continue to keep people believing you are. Be either righteous or a shrewd fake, but don't be a fool.

What's it gonna be?

Jesus and Paul both had stern words for the self-righteous, so it doesn't surprise me those upholding the Gospel they preached would be doing likewise. Legalism works against the liberty Jesus paid for with His own blood, that is offensive. That makes people respond in the way they do because it makes light of what Jesus did for us.

Who is twisting words and statements? None other than those who are self-righteous ignoring grace and pulling verses out of context. The people you mention, I do not see them twisting words. I see them refuting the false doctrines of self-righteousness. If you believe in the Gospel you should be applauding them.

What's it going to be? It's going to be graceful. You said I have sinned. Guess what? I am washed in the blood of the Lamb. No sin confession needed, but a proper appropriation of faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ. Not a work of the flesh, but a resting in Jesus. You see, this is the difference between grace and legalism. In grace there is no condemnation in Jesus Christ. In legalism there is condemnation in their misunderstanding of the Gospel. They have no assurance but what they can muster up in themselves. We have assurance in Jesus Christ, and the indwelling Holy Spirit (as the seal of Redemption).

My question to you is, where do you place your confidence?

 

[Grandpa]

What's your focus and what should it be?

If it is on rules and regulations, the letter, then all you will see is sin and death.

If your focus is on Christ all you will see is perfection. You will see Grace and Mercy. You will see Love and Peace.

You know where your focus should be. Not on your performance. On the Lords Performance.

That's the distraction and mistake of legalism. Its much more important to see where you are going than where you have been.