Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,"

[mailmandan]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

Plain talk said...

And such were some of you but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of out God. (1 Cor. 6: 11)

These sins listed in verses 9-10 that are descriptive of the lifestyle of the "unrighteous" which Paul says in Galatians 5:21 that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God are not practiced by those who are born of God - 1 John 3:9 NAS. Such WERE some of you...

And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. (1 Cor. 13: 2) But now abides faith, hope and love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. (1 Cor. 13: 13)

If someone has genuine saving faith in Christ and have received the Holy Spirit, it would be impossible for them to have NO love at all. Paul uses hyperbole (obvious and intentional exaggeration) about understanding ALL mysteries and ALL knowledge and having faith that can move mountains yet having NO love. Paul is not exaggerating about the importance of love though. Faith works through love (Galatians 5:6), but we are saved through faith, not faith plus love. Love is the greater quality of the three because God is love and it outlasts them all. Long after faith and hope are no longer necessary, love will still be the governing principle that controls all that God and his redeemed people are and do. We won't need faith and hope in heaven. In 1 Corinthians 13:13, Paul is not teaching that even if our faith is genuine that our faith cannot save us without producing "enough" love. Paul is stressing the importance of love, not teaching that faith is insufficient to save us without our best efforts to love. All genuine BELIEVERS love Christ. Why? Because we have received the love of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5) when we believed the gospel (Ephesians 1:13). We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19).

For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death. (2 Cor. 7: 10)

Genuine sorrow, according to the will of God produces repentance without regret, leading to salvation through faith.

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourself with Christ. (Gal. 3: 26, 27)

Galatians 3:26 - For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. This verse ends with a period. It's not by faith and baptism, but simply by FAITH. Notice in Galatians 3:27, that those who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Now for the word "enduo" (put on). This word also appears in Romans 13:14 where we read, "But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill it’s lusts." This exhortation is not to a sinner, telling him to be baptized to "put on" Christ, but it is written to Christians. Evidently then, baptism is not the only way to "put on" Christ. To "put on" Christ is to conform to Him, imitate Him. So it is in baptism; we "put on" Christ, conforming to Him in the ordinance that declares Him to be our Savior. So if we must "put on" Christ to be saved through water baptism, apparently we are not saved yet. We must also “put on” Christ by making no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts (Romans 13:14). Right? Let’s be consistent.

As Greek scholar A.T. Robertson explains - "This verb is common in the sense of putting on garments (literally and metaphorically as here). In I Thessalonians 5:8 - Paul speaks of "putting on the breastplate of righteousness." He does not here mean that one enters into Christ and so is saved by means of baptism after the teaching of the mystery religions, but just the opposite. We are justified by faith in Christ, not by circumcision or by baptism. But baptism was the public profession and pledge, the soldier’s sacramentum, oath of fealty to Christ, taking one’s stand with Christ, the symbolic picture of the change wrought by faith already. One does not put on a uniform in order to become a soldier. Simply putting on a soldier’s uniform does not make one a soldier. Once he is made a soldier he is then able to wear the uniform that distinguishes or marks him as a soldier. Putting on a judge’s robe does not, in itself, make anyone a "judge." But, one who has been made a judge is qualified to put on "judicial robes" and thus declare his qualifications. So too with being baptized the Christian puts on robes for which he has previously been qualified to wear. The putting on of Christian attire is not what makes one a Christian, but one which becomes a token of it. If one puts on the clothes of a Christian, in water baptism, without first becoming a Christian, then he becomes an imposter, and is declaring, in baptism, to be what he is not.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through Love. (Gal. 5: 6)

Why does faith work through love? See Romans 5:5 and 1 John 4:19.

That He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing with water with the word. (Eph. 5: 26)

Every time you see the word "water" in scripture, you jump to the conclusion that it's water baptism. Water is used in the Bible as an emblem of the Word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. Baptism does not avail to cleanse the heart from defilement, but our Lord did say, "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you" (John 15:3). The Apostle Peter wrote, "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever" (I Peter 1:23). Here Peter speaks of the use made of the word of God in regeneration. The Word of God is the means through which the Holy Spirit accomplishes the new birth. You continue to confuse water/living water/washing of water by the word/washing of regeneration with plain ordinary H20/water baptism. These verses on water/living water/word/Spirit relate to spiritual washing/purification of the soul accomplished by the Holy Spirit through the word of God at the moment of salvation. (John 3:5; 4:10,14; 7:37-39; Titus 3:5; Ephesians 5:26; 1 Peter 1:23).

So then my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. (Philp. 2: 12, 13)

Notice that Paul said, work "out" your salvation, NOT work "for" your salvation. This does not refer to salvation by works, but it does refer to the believer's responsibility for active pursuit of obedience in the process of ongoing sanctification. Sanctification has no bearing on justification. That is, even if we don't live a sinless perfect life (which we won't), we are still justified by faith in Christ (Romans 5:1). Verse 13 continues, after a comma, "for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose."

Having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were raised up with Him through faith in the working of God , who raised Him from the dead. (Col. 2: 12)

In the symbol of baptism the resurrection to new life in Christ is pictured with an allusion to Christ's own resurrection and to our final resurrection. Paul does not mean to say that the new life in Christ is caused or created by the act of baptism. That is grossly to misunderstand him. Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs "through faith." Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead" (Colossians 2:12). God has power to raise Christ from the dead and he has power to give us new life in Christ through faith. Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about "through faith" - and is properly symbolized by dipping the new believer in and out of the water.

Constantly bearing in mind your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the presence of our God and Father. (1 Thess. 1: 3)

Notice the words "work of" faith, "labor of" love and "patience of" hope in 1 Thessalonians 1:3. These are the practical outworking of the Thessalonians' conversion. The "work" the Thessalonians do is a result or consequence of their faith. So too their "labor" flows from love and their "endurance" comes from hope. Work "of" faith does not mean that faith in essence is the work accomplished. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Their work is a result or consequence "of" their faith. The work done is "of" faith or done "out of" faith. Faith was already established at conversion and then the work followed as a result or consequence "of" faith. You are trying to turn work "of" faith into this work "is" faith. You make no distinction between faith and works that follow as a result of our faith and the result is salvation by works.

Dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. (2 Thess. 1: 8)

We read in Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Refusing to obey the gospel is refusing to believe the gospel.

For the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. (1 Tim. 1: 5)

Because we are saved, not to become saved.

Who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity. (2 Tim. 1: 9) And He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to his mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit. (Titus 3: 5)

*He saved us not according to our works/not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness just blew your arguments right out of the water.* Washing of regeneration/renewing by the Holy Spirit = spiritual washing/purification of the soul accomplished by the Holy Spirit at the moment we are saved through faith.

And having been made perfect, He became to all that obey Him the source of eternal salvation. (Heb. 5: 9)

So who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I've heard many works salvationists (such as Roman Catholics and Mormons, along with yourself) use this verse to try and support salvation by works. Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved, and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by practicing righteousness and not sin (1 John 3:9,10). In either sense, only believers obey Him. Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers practice sin and not righteousness (1 John 3:8,10) and unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so-called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation based on their works. So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him. You simply write a blank check with the word "obey" then fill in whatever amount of works that you wish in order to accommodate your "works based" false gospel.

Let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. (Heb. 10: 22)

Plain ordinary H20 is not pure water. Having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, an evident allusion to the sprinkling of blood in the old tabernacle (Hebrews 9:18-22) and the shedding of Christ's blood for the cleansing of our consciences (Hebrews 10:1-4). 1 Peter 1:2 says for "the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ." Our bodies washed with pure water, old verb to bathe, to wash. See Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5 for the use of loutron. Strong's Greek Concordance with Vine's Number 3067 - (Loutron) "a bath, a laver" is used *metaphorically of the word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing,* Ephesians 5:26; and Titus 3:5, of the "washing of regeneration" which water baptism symbolizes and pictures.

 

[mailmandan]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

Plain talk said...

By faith Abraham, when he was called obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance.--- (Heb. 11: 9)

At what point was Abraham's faith accounted to him for righteousness? See Genesis 15:6.

He will receive the crown of life , which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. (James 2: 12)

Who loves Him? The saved or the lost?

Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. (James 2: 17)
But are you willing to recognize that faith without works is useless. (James 2: 20)

In James 2:14, we read of one who says-claims he has faith but has no works (to demonstrate that his claim is genuine). So this is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith. James does not teach that we are saved "by" works (as you teach). His concern is to show the reality of the faith "professed" by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of works, faith was perfected. (James 2: 21, 22)

Notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. No! The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save his soul, but it proved or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works - "shown to be righteous."

And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God. (James 2: 23)

The scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous because of his faith (Genesis 15:6) long before he offered up Isaac on the alter and demonstrated the reality of his faith in Genesis 22.

You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. (James 2: 24)

James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous". Once again, James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure. (1 Pet. 1: 2)

You have a problem with confusing justification with sanctification.

Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, fervently love one another from the heart. (1 Pet. 1: 22)

Compare "purified your souls in obeying the truth" with Acts 15:9 - "purified your hearts by faith." You still don't understand that obeying the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves (Romans 1:16; 10:16). You take the word "obedience" here and add your works then try to "shoe horn" your works "into" salvation through faith, but the shoe does not fit. Roman Catholics and Mormons do the same thing.

An corresponding to that, baptism now saves you---not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience---through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. (1 Pet. 3: 21)

Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He says that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not the part which saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism). Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.*

And by this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep his commandments. The one who says , "I have come to know Him," and does not keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (1 John 2: 3, 4)

We know that we have come to know Him (demonstrative evidence) - if we keep His commandments. Believers don't keep His commandments in order to come to know Him, but BECAUSE they know Him. Notice, the one who says (compare with James 2:14 - says he has faith) and does not keep His commandments (demonstrates) - that he is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Yes faith is the indispensable connection to the grace of God, but faith, without love and works of faith, is meaningless, dead and useless.

This still does not mean we are saved works and without faith it is impossible to please God no matter how much we try to love and no matter how many works that we attempt to accomplish.

Faith works through repentance, baptism, calling on the name of the Lord, confession and the obedience of faith, in love, to perfect itself.

Paul said faith works through love. Repentance precedes saving faith in Christ. Baptism follows saving faith in Christ. Calling on the name of the Lord is done in faith, not after faith. Faith and confession are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together, as I showed you in Romans 10:8-10. Obedience of faith/obedience that flows from faith is WORKS and we are not saved by works. Perfect itself does not mean saved by works. You are so mixed up.

We are saved by a "perfected" faith, an obedient loving faith.

We are saved by faith that trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation then as a result, love and obedience FOLLOWS. You have this backwards. In James 2:21, James was said to be justified by works when he offered up Isaac on the altar and by works faith was perfected, yet this happened many years AFTER Abraham believed the Lord and his faith (not his works) was accounted to him for righteousness (Genesis 15:6). According to your flawed logic here, Abraham was still a lost man when his faith was accounted to him for righteousness in Genesis 15:6 and he was not saved until his faith was perfected by works in Genesis 22.

Works of faith are not MY WORKS,

Do believers accomplish these works or does God accomplish these works for them? Works done out of faith are works that the believer accomplishes.

they are works of God since faith is a work of God.

Work of God does not mean that God completely accomplishes the work as we sit by passively. In John 6:29, Jesus said - this is the work of God/the work that God requires, that you believe in Him whom He has sent. This also does not mean that faith is just another work in a series of works in a quest to be saved by works, as you seem to teach.

Works of faith are not performed to be righteous thereby, they are performed to perfect our faith.

So was Abraham a saved man in Genesis 15:6 when his faith was accounted to him for righteousness or not until many years later in Genesis 22, when his faith was perfected? You are teaching that we are not really saved through faith in Christ, but through "works of faith" that are accomplished later. Sugar coat it all you want, but you are clearly teaching salvation BY WORKS.

We must constantly guard our minds from that concept, which is the basis of law and law is not of faith. Even so, faith is not the greatest quality, that distinction is claimed by love.

You are completely mixed up and all I can do you continue to pray for you. Continue to seek for the truth and God bless.

 

[mailmandan]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

There is a marked difference between a "work of faith" and a "work of righteousness." God bless.

Through your misinterpretation of scripture, you still have not shown the difference and you still have not answered my questions: So a work done out of faith "work of faith" is not a "work of righteousness" but a work of UN-righteousness? Is Christ's finished work of redemption not sufficient enough for you? So how many works/works of faith/works of obedience etc.. must you accomplish and add as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save you?

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

You quoted the wrong verse and this is no coincidence. Romans 5:1 - Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. The verse that you meant to quote was Romans 1:5. Anytime you see the word "obey" or "obedience," you jump to the erroneous conclusion that we are saved by obedience/works which follows faith. Paul's mission, as he perceived it, was to bring people to the point of saving faith in Christ, which faith, in turn, would motivate one to express and evidence that saving faith in appropriate fashion. This obedience flows from saving faith in Christ. Although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of coming to faith in Christ as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel" (Romans 10:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were consistently obedient to God. Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR/UNTO obedience to the faith. Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR/UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works, NOT by good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). In Romans 1:5, Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced "enough" obedience/works. We have access by FAITH into GRACE… (Romans 5:2) not faith "and obedience." We are saved through faith first, then "unto" obedience/good works. You put the cart before the horse.

If one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it is imperative to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving salvation. So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of our salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of our salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. Also see (Romans 4:4-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Here you go again confusing the symbol with the reality. We are Spirit baptized "into the body of Christ" (1 Corinthians 12:13) not water baptized. In what sense are we water baptized into Christ? In the same sense that the Israelites were "baptized into Moses" (1 Corinthians 10:2). Were the Israelites literally water baptized into the body of Moses? Absolutely not. As Greek scholar AT Robertson explains - Baptism is the public proclamation of one's inward spiritual relation to Christ attained before the baptism. See on "Galatians 3:27" where it is like putting on an outward garment or uniform. Into his death (ei ton qanaton autou). So here "unto his death," "in relation to his death," which relation Paul proceeds to explain by the symbolism of the ordinance. We were buried therefore with him by means of baptism unto death (sunetaphmen oun autwi dia tou baptismato ei ton qanaton). Second aorist passive indicative of sunqaptw, old verb to bury together with, in N.T. only here and Colossians 2:12 . With associative instrumental case (autwi) and "by means of baptism unto death" as in verse Colossians 3. In newness of life (en kainothti zwh). The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ's death and burial and to our death to sin (verse Colossians 1 ), forwards to Christ's resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave (F. B. Meyer). There is the further picture of our own resurrection from the grave. It is a tragedy that Paul's majestic picture here has been so blurred by controversy that some refuse to see it. It should be said also that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality. Water baptism is the PICTURE, NOT THE CAUSE.

There is a contrast here between slaves in Romans 6:16. There are only two kinds of slaves in this world, in the spiritual sense; slaves of sin unto death, or slaves of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness." Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.

In Romans 6:17, before they obeyed that form of doctrine by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16), they had been slaves to sin. 1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by faith. We obey that form of doctrine/obey the truth when we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel.

Notice in Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness and with the mouth, confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. It's not believe today then confess next week and are finally saved next week.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing that Jesus is Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep personal conviction, without reservation, that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So simply believing in our head (and not in our heart) that God raised Him from the dead does not result in righteousness and simply reciting the words "Jesus is Lord" not by the Holy Spirit from a check list of steps as if they are simply magic words that when added to mere "mental assent belief" gives us an entry pass through the door of eternal life is not unto salvation.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to mailmandan again.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

Thanks mailmanDan
I had the wrong understanding of that scripture in Romans 10:8.

 

[valiant]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins," is there any reason to believe that any other cases of water baptism were practiced for any other reason

For Example

Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Act 16:15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.
Act 16:33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
Act 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 9:17-18 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

????? [If so, where are the scriptures that indicate it?]

practised as 'the answer/interrogation of a good conscience towards God'? (1 Pet 3.21).

Incidentally in Acts 2.38 what is for the remission of sins is 'REPENT and be baptised IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST'. It was not the baptism which saved but the One into Whom they were baptised, at that time a totally new idea.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

Through your misinterpretation of scripture, you still have not shown the difference and you still have not answered my questions: So a work done out of faith "work of faith" is not a "work of righteousness" but a work of UN-righteousness? Is Christ's finished work of redemption not sufficient enough for you? So how many works/works of faith/works of obedience etc.. must you accomplish and add as a supplement to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Him save you?

I noticed that plain talk has not responded.

I'm sure someone got a good understanding, though.
Points discussed were clear and very well presented.

 

[plaintalk]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

To mailmandan:

If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. (1Cor 13: 2)
This is the Apostle Paul’s postulation not mine. Is he postulating an impossible scenario? Let the spin begin. Perhaps we should consider the substance of his statement before dismissing it, if for nothing else, for the sake of discussion. Since you can’t imagine such a situation, let’s stick to Paul’s language. IMO Paul is saying that if he has faith to the ultimate degree but does not have love, he is nothing and his faith is meaningless. I can personally identify with Paul’s statement as I vividly remember one minister saying in a discussion, “Love, love, love; I am sick and tired of hearing about love.” And sadly he appeared to give that impression. IMO Paul’s statement has tremendous negative implications for that modern day fiction, “salvation by grace through faith alone.” Yes, salvation is by grace through faith but saving faith is never alone. Our first exposure to the love of God is when we hear the good news that God so love the world, not just the elect, that He gave His Son to taste death for everyone---Jesus died, was buried and arose the third say. The Holy Spirit was sent to convict the world, not just the elect, of sin, righteousness and judgement. If we are convicted, believe, we are inclined to come to Jesus, the Righteous One, and we are drawn to God by His love. We cannot come to God unless we are drawn by His love. We are not saved at this point but we can see love interacting with faith from the beginning of our walk. Yes, faith without love is meaningless.
Mailmandan says, “Faith works through love. (Gal 5: 6) but we are saved through faith, not faith plus love.” More spin. More accurately, IMO, we are saved by faith which works through loves. Are there works which lead to salvation? Of course---calling on the name of the Lord, repentance, baptism, confessing the name of Christ, obedience are all said to save or lead to salvation. Faith working through these factors, through love, saves. Of course, mailmandan will try to spin them away. Is it proper to say the eternal life is promised to those that love God? (James 1: 12) or that those who love have passed from death to life? (1 John 3: 14) Of course, this is not love apart from faith but faith that is mingled with love. God bless.

 

[presidente]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

I'm late to chime in, but here goes.

If your doctrine and your churches doctrine doesn't quite line up with scripture, then your doctrine needs to change. Even though I was raised Evangelical, I have to admit that Evangelical presentations of the Gospel often don't sound that much like presentations of the Gospel in the Bible.

Here is stuff you hear Evangelicals say,
1 It's a relationship not a religion.
---When their Bible speaks of 'pure religion' in James 1. Unbelievers don't know our unique definitions of words like 'religion' so we shouldn't bog down our presentations of the Gospel with them.

2. It's all about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
---Jesus probably grew up with some folks who had personal relationships with Him who didn't believe the Gospel. The people in Nazareth knew him. Judas Iscariot had a personal relationship with Him, but Judas was lost.
---The apostles never present the Gospel as being about having a 'personal relationship with Jesus Christ.'
---Why should we think that the Hindu who wants to put a statue of Jesus on the shelf, the New Ager who wants a spirit guide, or the Muslim who doesn't believe that Jesus is the Son of God or that He rose from the dead, who repeats a prayer to 'accept Jesus' so he can have a personal relationship.... is saved?

3. The Bible does not teach you get saved by repeating a prayer.
--I saw a video made by an author who explained the 'sinner's prayer' ritual was popularized only in the 1950's, taken from a way to get people who were ready to make a profession of faith after a counselor went through the Bible with them and talked with them about their faith.
--Repeating a prayer doesn't save you. Saying it without faith won't save you. Asking people to repeat a prayer without explaining the Gospel to them first doesn't make any sense at all, though it seems to be the norm in many pulpits throughout the land.

4. The Bible does not teach that you get saved by 'asking Jesus into your heart.'
---Check it out. It's not there. Even 'behold I stand at the door and knock' is addressed to a church, not the unbeliever. And it doesn't mention Jesus coming into anyone's heart.
- There is no reason to think that the verse that says, "But to as many as received Him..." refers to the modern evangelical ritual of repeating a prayer after a preacher, which hadn't even been in the first century.

5. The apostles preached Christ, the cross and the resurrection.
---One cannot claim the promise of salvation based on I Corinthians 15:1-4 if he doesn't believe that Jesus died for His sins and rose from the dead. One cannot claim the promise of salvation found in Romans 10:9-10 if he doesn't believe that Jesus rose from the dead.

So why do so many preachers NOT tell sinners that Jesus died for their sins and rose again from the dead, but instead talk about having a 'personal relationship' and repeating a sinner's prayer. Some mention the cross and not the resurrection. Believing that Jesus died on the cross isn't enough to save you. Caiaphas believed that Jesus died on the cross. Plenty of pagan Romans believed that Jesus died on the cross. Plenty of atheists believe that Jesus died on the cross.

Colossians 2:12
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

6. Our salvation is tied up with our faith that God raised Jesus from the dead.
I Corinthians 15
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Romans 10

[SUP]9 [/SUP]That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

7. The apostles preached the Gospel and then called people to repentance, faith, and water baptism. They didn't just say a bunch of evangelical clichés about 'relationship and not a religion', skip over the gospel, and ask people to pray a prayer to 'ask Jesus into your heart.'

Matthew 28:18

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.



Acts 2:38
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[presidente]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

When John the Baptist preached for the remission of sins, was he calling people to repent for sins that were already remitted? That doesn't make much sense. Why would we read that into Acts 2:38?

Ananias said to Paul to 'Arise and be baptized, and calling upon the name of the Lord, wash away your sins." Paul mentioned this while he was evangelizing, so he must have thought that it was okay. He got saved through these series of events.

Evangelicals need to adjust their beliefs about scripture to accommodate scripture, not the other way around. And we don't need to define our beliefs in reaction to other groups that emphasize different things.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

I'm late to chime in, but here goes.

If your doctrine and your churches doctrine doesn't quite line up with scripture, then your doctrine needs to change. Even though I was raised Evangelical, I have to admit that Evangelical presentations of the Gospel often don't sound that much like presentations of the Gospel in the Bible.

Here is stuff you hear Evangelicals say,
1 It's a relationship not a religion.
---When their Bible speaks of 'pure religion' in James 1. Unbelievers don't know our unique definitions of words like 'religion' so we shouldn't bog down our presentations of the Gospel with them.

2. It's all about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
---Jesus probably grew up with some folks who had personal relationships with Him who didn't believe the Gospel. The people in Nazareth knew him. Judas Iscariot had a personal relationship with Him, but Judas was lost.
---The apostles never present the Gospel as being about having a 'personal relationship with Jesus Christ.'
---Why should we think that the Hindu who wants to put a statue of Jesus on the shelf, the New Ager who wants a spirit guide, or the Muslim who doesn't believe that Jesus is the Son of God or that He rose from the dead, who repeats a prayer to 'accept Jesus' so he can have a personal relationship.... is saved?

3. The Bible does not teach you get saved by repeating a prayer.
--I saw a video made by an author who explained the 'sinner's prayer' ritual was popularized only in the 1950's, taken from a way to get people who were ready to make a profession of faith after a counselor went through the Bible with them and talked with them about their faith.
--Repeating a prayer doesn't save you. Saying it without faith won't save you. Asking people to repeat a prayer without explaining the Gospel to them first doesn't make any sense at all, though it seems to be the norm in many pulpits throughout the land.

4. The Bible does not teach that you get saved by 'asking Jesus into your heart.'
---Check it out. It's not there. Even 'behold I stand at the door and knock' is addressed to a church, not the unbeliever. And it doesn't mention Jesus coming into anyone's heart.
- There is no reason to think that the verse that says, "But to as many as received Him..." refers to the modern evangelical ritual of repeating a prayer after a preacher, which hadn't even been in the first century.

5. The apostles preached Christ, the cross and the resurrection.
---One cannot claim the promise of salvation based on I Corinthians 15:1-4 if he doesn't believe that Jesus died for His sins and rose from the dead. One cannot claim the promise of salvation found in Romans 10:9-10 if he doesn't believe that Jesus rose from the dead.

So why do so many preachers NOT tell sinners that Jesus died for their sins and rose again from the dead, but instead talk about having a 'personal relationship' and repeating a sinner's prayer. Some mention the cross and not the resurrection. Believing that Jesus died on the cross isn't enough to save you. Caiaphas believed that Jesus died on the cross. Plenty of pagan Romans believed that Jesus died on the cross. Plenty of atheists believe that Jesus died on the cross.

Colossians 2:12
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

6. Our salvation is tied up with our faith that God raised Jesus from the dead.
I Corinthians 15
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Romans 10

[SUP]9 [/SUP]That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

7. The apostles preached the Gospel and then called people to repentance, faith, and water baptism. They didn't just say a bunch of evangelical clichés about 'relationship and not a religion', skip over the gospel, and ask people to pray a prayer to 'ask Jesus into your heart.'

Matthew 28:18

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.



Acts 2:38
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

No, Lets all spit on the cross of Christ, and save ourselves by working to earn what he calls a gift.

Thanks but no thanks.

The jews had circumcision, the gentile has baptism. Both will rot in hell if they do not repent and recieve the spiritual circumcision (baptism) done by the hands of God who raised him from the dead.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

When John the Baptist preached for the remission of sins, was he calling people to repent for sins that were already remitted? That doesn't make much sense. Why would we read that into Acts 2:38?

Ananias said to Paul to 'Arise and be baptized, and calling upon the name of the Lord, wash away your sins." Paul mentioned this while he was evangelizing, so he must have thought that it was okay. He got saved through these series of events.

Evangelicals need to adjust their beliefs about scripture to accommodate scripture, not the other way around. And we don't need to define our beliefs in reaction to other groups that emphasize different things.

John told them to repent. For things where about to change. a new was was being introduced. the old was being replaced.

Peter said to repent. Your way will not work. Its Gods way or the highway.

 

[notuptome]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

When John the Baptist preached for the remission of sins, was he calling people to repent for sins that were already remitted? That doesn't make much sense. Why would we read that into Acts 2:38?

Ananias said to Paul to 'Arise and be baptized, and calling upon the name of the Lord, wash away your sins." Paul mentioned this while he was evangelizing, so he must have thought that it was okay. He got saved through these series of events.

Evangelicals need to adjust their beliefs about scripture to accommodate scripture, not the other way around. And we don't need to define our beliefs in reaction to other groups that emphasize different things.

What baptism are you espousing?

I hope you are saying that it is Holy Spirit baptism that saves and not water baptism.

I fail to understand why something so basic is so difficult for many to comprehend.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[plaintalk]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

To mailmandan:
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a sorrow which is without regret, leading to salvation; but the sorrow of the world produces death. (2 Cor. 7: 10)
We have already seen that salvation is by grace through faith (Eph. 2: 8, 9) and that faith works through love. (Gal. 5: 6) This verse depicts one factor, repentance, that leads to salvation, that is operative prior to the reception of the gift of salvation. If that is correct, then we can combine the thoughts of the three verses to read: salvation is by grace through faith which works through repentance through love. If this is true, then salvation is certainly by grace through faith that is not alone. Of course there other factors that save or lead to salvation also, therefore we would be justified in inserting any of these factors into our comprehensive statement. Anyone of these factors throws the “faith only” doctrine in to serious question. God bless.

 

[shotgunner]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

Some of you are making it way too difficult and complicated. All that is necessary is for a person to see Jesus as the only way to salvation and to cry out to him, truly seeking salvation.

That's it! In that simple statement is contained faith, love, grace and repentance.

 

[valiant]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

To mailmandan:
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a sorrow which is without regret, leading to salvation; but the sorrow of the world produces death. (2 Cor. 7: 10)
We have already seen that salvation is by grace through faith (Eph. 2: 8, 9) and that faith works through love. (Gal. 5: 6) This verse depicts one factor, repentance, that leads to salvation, that is operative prior to the reception of the gift of salvation. If that is correct, then we can combine the thoughts of the three verses to read: salvation is by grace through faith which works through repentance through love. If this is true, then salvation is certainly by grace through faith that is not alone. Of course there other factors that save or lead to salvation also, therefore we would be justified in inserting any of these factors into our comprehensive statement. Anyone of these factors throws the “faith only” doctrine in to serious question. God bless.

Your thesis fails on two grounds.

Firstly you fail to see that the word salvation is being used in two different senses in the two verses you mention. Eph 2.8-9 is referring to a person who is lost receiving eternal salvation through the grace (unmerited favour and activity) of God. He is thereby accounted as righteous and made anew in the Holy Spirit. He has become acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. The penalty of his sin has been removed once for all and he has now entered into an experience in which Christ will gradually save him from the power of sin so as eventually to present him holy, unblameable and unreprovable in His sight.

The verse you mention is referring to salvation from the power of a particular sin, that is deliverance from it in the life. It is not referring to 'eternal salvation' as Eph 2.8-9 is. Such people were Christians who were being saved from the power of particular sins.

You fail also because you do not understand what it means to be saved by faith alone. Such a doctrine does not deny that many things may occur in a person's life prior to his being saved. Indeed he would not believe if he did not have a change of mind. But they are preparatory and not necessary for salvation. The only thing necessary for eternal salvation is a true response of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Once that response of faith has taken place eternal salvation has been received as a gift and that gift is not conditional on anything else although it will result in many things..

 

[Viligant_Warrior]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

Unbelievable. 316 replies to an OP with a false premise.

 

[plaintalk]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

To mailmandan:
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. (Gal 3: 26, 27)
“Its not by faith and baptism, but simply by faith.” mailmandan The spin goes on. You appear to be stating that we are sons of God by faith and not by baptism because there is a period after verse 26. But the very next verse begins with “For,” connecting that verse with what has preceded it. We are the sons of God by faith by being baptized into Christ. Why? Because those who by faith have been baptized into Christ have clothed themselves with Christ. In Christ there is life and righteousness and sonship and a host of spiritual blessing. Jesus our Lord is the Son of God, therefore when they have been clothed with Christ, they have put on sonship, they are adopted as children of God.
When we receive Christ by believing in His name we are given the right to become children of God. (John 1: 12, 13) These verses tell us how that is accomplished from the adoption perspective. Faith and baptism are also included in the spiritual birth perspective.
God imputes the attributes of Christ to us when by faith we are baptized into Christ. But with most of us the reality of our lives are quite distant from what is imputed to us. Now begins the process of renewal by the Holy Spirit, to bring our actual lives into conformity to that which is imputed to us. That is why we are admonished (Rom. 13: 14)
Many say that A. T. Robertson is a great Greek scholar, I know that I read His Word Pictures as there is a lot of good information. But I have also read that he has publicly acknowledged that he has fudged his exegesis of certain passages to favor his Baptist persuasion.
“If one puts on the clothes of a Christian, in water baptism, without first becoming a Christian, then he becomes an imposter, and is declaring in baptism, to be what he is not.” Wow! I glad you are not the judge. The disciples were first called Christians at Antioch, so a Christian is essentially a disciple. Jesus authorizes his disciples to make additional disciples of all nations by baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit and teaching them to observe all things commanded. So when by faith we are baptized into Christ we become children, we are redeemed, we are clothed with Christ and we become disciples. There is no hypocrisy. One note, we don’t put on the “clothes of a Christian,” we put on Christ. God bless.

 

[mailmandan]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

To mailmandan:

If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. (1Cor 13: 2)
This is the Apostle Paul’s postulation not mine. Is he postulating an impossible scenario? Let the spin begin.

You mean let your spin begin. Paul is not saying there are Christians out there who have the gift of prophecy, know all mysteries and all knowledge and have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but won't be saved because they have no love. You are always trying to "add additional requirements" (works/man's performance) to salvation through faith so that you can boast.

Perhaps we should consider the substance of his statement before dismissing it, if for nothing else, for the sake of discussion. Since you can’t imagine such a situation, let’s stick to Paul’s language. IMO Paul is saying that if he has faith to the ultimate degree but does not have love, he is nothing and his faith is meaningless.

But Paul did not say he had faith to the ultimate degree BUT DID NOT HAVE LOVE, did he? Paul is stressing the importance of love and not teaching salvation through faith "plus love." Did Paul say saved through faith and love in Ephesians 2:8? Faith that does not work through love is not genuine faith. Just like faith that claims to be genuine yet produces no good works is not genuine saving faith but is an empty profession of faith, a dead faith (James 2:14-18).

I can personally identify with Paul’s statement as I vividly remember one minister saying in a discussion, “Love, love, love; I am sick and tired of hearing about love.” And sadly he appeared to give that impression.

What does that say about that minister? Just because someone is a minister does not necessarily mean they are saved. Genuine Christians are never sick of hearing about love. I get sick of not hearing about love enough.

IMO Paul’s statement has tremendous negative implications for that modern day fiction, “salvation by grace through faith alone.” Yes, salvation is by grace through faith but saving faith is never alone.

Salvation by grace through faith in Christ (rightly understood) alone is not fiction, but truth. Salvation by grace through faith in Christ "and works" is age old heresy. The word "alone" in regards to salvation through faith in "Christ alone" conveys the message that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not on the merits of our works. It is through faith IN CHRIST alone (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 1:16; 3:24); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). Simple! That is the balance that you have out of balance because you teach salvation based on works. Human pride keeps people from coming to Christ. Their hands of full of their works and they will not let go in order to take hold of Christ through faith.

Our first exposure to the love of God is when we hear the good news that God so love the world, not just the elect, that He gave His Son to taste death for everyone---Jesus died, was buried and arose the third say. The Holy Spirit was sent to convict the world, not just the elect, of sin, righteousness and judgement. If we are convicted, believe, we are inclined to come to Jesus, the Righteous One, and we are drawn to God by His love. We cannot come to God unless we are drawn by His love. We are not saved at this point but we can see love interacting with faith from the beginning of our walk. Yes, faith without love is meaningless.

Faith works through love. Faith that has no love is not genuine faith. We are saved at the point of placing our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation. Unless the Father draws us (John 6:44) and enables us (John 6:65) we would never come to saving faith in Christ all by ourselves. We love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). We receive the love of God in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (BELIEVERS) - Romans 5:5. Lost unbelievers do not have agape love in their heart.

Mailmandan says, “Faith works through love. (Gal 5: 6) but we are saved through faith, not faith plus love.” More spin.

No spin at all. This is what you are implying. If we have faith but no love, we won't be saved. You are always trying to base salvation on the merits of our performance/works. What about if we have faith and love but no hope? What about if we have hope and love but no faith? These are OXYMORONS. Between faith, hope and love, love is the greater quality of the three because God is love and it outlasts them all. Long after faith and hope are no longer necessary, love will still be the governing principle that controls all that God and his redeemed people are and do.

More accurately, IMO, we are saved by faith which works through loves. Are there works which lead to salvation?

Yes, genuine faith works through love and no, works do not lead to salvation they flow from salvation. Saved by grace through faith, not works, created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). You have it backwards.

Of course---calling on the name of the Lord, repentance, baptism, confessing the name of Christ, obedience are all said to save or lead to salvation.

Your misunderstanding here is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics. Calling on the name of the Lord is what we do when we come to faith in Christ and are saved (Romans 10:13), not after we come to faith in Christ. Repentance precedes coming to faith in Christ (Acts 20:21), not after we come to faith in Christ. Baptism is something we do after we come to faith in Christ (Acts 10:43-47). Confessing with out mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10). The act of obedience that saves is choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16). Those who believe the gospel and are saved have already repented and called upon the name of the Lord. Water baptism and further multiple acts of obedience which follow receiving salvation through faith are WORKS and we are NOT saved by good works, but FOR good works. *Are you ready to repent and believe the gospel?

Faith working through these factors, through love, saves. Of course, mailmandan will try to spin them away. Is it proper to say the eternal life is promised to those that love God? (James 1: 12) or that those who love have passed from death to life? (1 John 3: 14) Of course, this is not love apart from faith but faith that is mingled with love. God bless.

Faith works through love BECAUSE we are saved, not to become saved. You try to spin the truth away because it tickles your ears to believe that you will be saved based on the merits of your best efforts to love/your performance/your works that you call God's works. Those that love God are BELIEVERS, not unbelievers. This is DESCRIPTIVE of BELIEVERS. We know that we have passed (past tense) from death to life, because (demonstrative evidence) we love the brethren. Believers do not love the brethren in order to pass from death to life, but BECAUSE they have passed from death to life. Also see 1 John 3:10. You have this backwards. You have the tail wagging the dog. The cart before the horse. You are unable to make a distinction between PRESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture and DESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture because you read the Bible through the lens of performance based/works salvation. As I told you before, I was raised in the Roman Catholic church and at one time had spent some time in the church of Christ so I understand your confusion. Been there, done that, BUT NOW I BELIEVE. When will you BELIEVE? Continuing to pray for you. Continue to seek for the truth and God bless.

 

[mailmandan]

Re: Since Acts 2:38 teaches that the baptism commanded is "for the remission of sins,

To mailmandan:
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. [SUP]27 [/SUP]For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. (Gal 3: 26, 27)
“Its not by faith and baptism, but simply by faith.” mailmandan The spin goes on.

You mean YOUR spin goes on. You are the spin doctor. Paul clearly stated you are all sons of God by faith in Christ Jesus (period). Not by faith and baptism. Next verse, next statement.

You appear to be stating that we are sons of God by faith and not by baptism because there is a period after verse 26. But the very next verse begins with “For,” connecting that verse with what has preceded it. We are the sons of God by faith by being baptized into Christ.

For is not connecting baptism with becoming sons of God through faith. Notice how Paul said "we are sons of God by faith in Jesus Christ" - PERIOD but you twist and change verse 26 to say "we are sons of God by faith by being baptized into Christ." That's NOT what Paul said. Quit twisting the Scriptures. Paul also said Ephesians 2:8 that we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH, not through faith and baptism. John said - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become (they actually do become) children of God, to those who believe in His name: *No baptism "added" there either. Why are you so obsessed with water baptism and why do you insist on continuing to fight the truth? You need to place your faith in the Savior God, not the water god.

Why? Because those who by faith have been baptized into Christ have clothed themselves with Christ. In Christ there is life and righteousness and sonship and a host of spiritual blessing. Jesus our Lord is the Son of God, therefore when they have been clothed with Christ, they have put on sonship, they are adopted as children of God.

It's by faith in Christ, not faith in baptism. Go back and read post #301 again. I thoroughly explained to you about the words "put on" (enduo) and showed you where it is also used in Romans 13:14. *Your argument is inconsistent.

When we receive Christ by believing in His name we are given the right to become children of God. (John 1: 12, 13) These verses tell us how that is accomplished from the adoption perspective.

John clearly told us in John 1:12 how we are given the right to become (and actually do become) children of God - believe in His Name. *Nothing there about baptism.

Faith and baptism are also included in the spiritual birth perspective.

False. It's not and baptism - John 1:12; Galatians 3:26. Believe in His name/Faith brings about our spiritual birth. Water baptism is the PICTURE, NOT THE REALITY.

God imputes the attributes of Christ to us when by faith we are baptized into Christ.

False. Faith is not baptism and faith precedes baptism and we are saved through faith. It's just that simple. Not hard to understand. Just hard for you to ACCEPT because of your indoctrination. Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works. Your faith is clearly in baptism (and other works) and not exclusively in Christ. Either we are trusting 100% in Christ to save us or else we are 100% lost.

But with most of us the reality of our lives are quite distant from what is imputed to us. Now begins the process of renewal by the Holy Spirit, to bring our actual lives into conformity to that which is imputed to us. That is why we are admonished (Rom. 13: 14)

Who is admonished to put on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provision for the flesh to fulfill it's lusts in Romans 13:14? Saved believers or lost unbelievers?

Many say that A. T. Robertson is a great Greek scholar, I know that I read His Word Pictures as there is a lot of good information. But I have also read that he has publicly acknowledged that he has fudged his exegesis of certain passages to favor his Baptist persuasion.

I don't see him fudging his exegesis but I see him harmonizing Scripture with Scripture. I see people in the church of Christ distorting and perverting passages of Scripture in an effort to "patch together" their so called gospel plan. AT Robertson does not pervert the gospel by teaching salvation by works.

“If one puts on the clothes of a Christian, in water baptism, without first becoming a Christian, then he becomes an imposter, and is declaring in baptism, to be what he is not.” Wow! I glad you are not the judge. The disciples were first called Christians at Antioch, so a Christian is essentially a disciple. Jesus authorizes his disciples to make additional disciples of all nations by baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit and teaching them to observe all things commanded.

So someone who gets water baptized apart from placing their faith in Christ for salvation is not an imposter, but is a Christian anyway in your eyes and is not declaring in baptism, to be what he is not? God is the judge and he knows who genuinely trusts exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation and who does not. Water baptism does not cause someone to become a disciple of Jesus. Becoming a disciple of Jesus is a heart decision made prior to getting water baptized. Make disciples then baptize them and teach them to observe all things commanded BECAUSE they are disciples, not to become disciples.

So when by faith we are baptized into Christ we become children,

False. We are children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:26). Those who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ (Galatians 3:27). But put on the Lord Jesus Christ and make no provisions for the flesh to fulfill it's lusts (Romans 13:14). Evidently then, baptism is not the only way to "put on" Christ. To "put on" Christ is to conform to Him, imitate Him. So it is in baptism; we "put on" Christ, conforming to Him in the ordinance that declares Him to be our Savior. So if we must "put on" Christ to be saved through water baptism, apparently we are not saved yet. We must also “put on” Christ by making no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts (Romans 13:14). Right? Let’s be consistent.

we are redeemed, we are clothed with Christ and we become disciples. There is no hypocrisy. One note, we don’t put on the “clothes of a Christian,” we put on Christ. God bless.

You still have it backwards and you JUST DON'T GET IT! Your obsession with water baptism and rejection of faith in Christ has also become nauseating. Putting on Christ is putting on the clothes that only a Christian is qualified to wear. Plain ordinary H20 has no power to redeem you or make you become a disciple of Christ. Don't buy into the lies of Campbellism. You are still unable to see anything beyond your church of Christ indoctrination, but I will continue to pray for you. Continue to seek for the truth and God bless.