Is the Devil bound right now...?

[Ahwatukee]

The Hal Lindsay books and John Darby pre-trib rapture tradition is just as ludicrous as the amil position. Pre-mil does not mean all of them are on the pre-trib rapture theory that began from Darby in 1830's Britain.

In order to prove their position, as you have done above, they site other writers as the reason for those who hold to a pre-trib catching away and I always tell them the same thing: I never learned that information from those people, but came to my own conclusions through the study of scripture. Here is a list in favor of why the resurrection and catching away will take place prior to the beginning of the seven years:

Proof #1: Revelation 19:11-21 doesn't mention a resurrection.
The catching away is a resurrection of those "in Christ" (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Isn't it a little bit odd that in Rev. 19:11-21, which is the clearest picture of the second coming of Christ, there is no mention of a resurrection? The catching away will be the biggest event since the resurrection of Jesus where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected and translated, yet there isn't any mention here. Don't you think it deserves at least one verse? The catching away isn't mentioned because it doesn't happen at the second coming.

Proof #2: Zechariah 14:1-15 doesn't mention a resurrection.
This is an Old Testament picture of Jesus returning to earth at the second coming. Again, no mention of a resurrection.

Proof #3: Two different pictures are painted.
In the Old Testament, there were two different pictures painted of the Messiah-one suffering (Isa. 53:2-10, Ps. 22:6-8, 11-18) and one reigning as King (Ps. 2:6-12, Zech. 14:9,16). As we look back on these scriptures, we see they predicted two separate comings of the Messiah-the 1st coming as a suffering Messiah and the 2nd coming (still future) as a reigning King.
In the New Testament, we have another picture added. Again, we have two pictures painted which don't look the same. These two different descriptions of Jesus' coming point to two separate events we call "the resurrection and catching away" and "the second coming."

Proof #4: The Known Day and the Unknown Day
Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't know and a day we can know. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matt. 24:15-21, 2 Thess. 2:4) This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation (Dan 9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Rev. 13:4) and will be destroyed by Jesus at His second coming (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thess. 2:8). The known and unknown days must happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.

Proof #5: A door open in heaven (Revelation 4:1)
The door in heaven is opened to let John into heaven. I believe John's call into heaven is prophetic of the church being caught up (see proof #6). In Revelation 19:11, heaven is opened again, this time to let the armies which are already in heaven out. This is the Church, which has been raptured at a previous time, following Jesus out of heaven at the second coming. Also, I believe that the "trumpet call of God" in 1 Thes.4:16 is synonymous with "that voice that sounds like a trumpet, which says 'come up here' " in Rev.4:1

Proof #6: "Come up here." (Revelation 4:1)
A voice called for the apostle John to "Come up here," and immediately he was in heaven. This could be a prophetic reference to the catching away of the Church. The words "Come up here" are spoken to the two witnesses who are killed in the middle of the Tribulation, who are resurrected and ascend into heaven (Rev. 11:12). Therefore, the phrase "Come up here" could mean the church is caught up in Rev. 4:1. The word "church" is mentioned 22 times in Rev. 1-3, but is not mentioned again until Rev. 22:17 which is outside of the narrative.

Proof #7: The 24 elders have their crowns.
After John is called up into heaven, he sees the 24 elders with their crowns (Rev. 4:4-10). We know that Christians will receive their rewards (crowns) when we are caught up (2 Tim. 4:8, 1 Pet. 5:4). We will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous (Luke 14:14). The elders couldn't receive their crowns unless the resurrection and catching away has taken place.

Proof #8 Holy ones are already with Jesus in heaven (Zech. 14:5, Rev. 19:14)
The armies in heaven riding on white horses and clothed in fine linen, follow Jesus out of heaven at His second coming (Rev. 19:14, Zech. 14:5, Col. 3:4). These are not angels because Rev. 19:7-8 has the bride receiving her fine linen just before her descent with the Lord. Also, in Rev.17:14, those who return with him from heaven are identified as his "called, chosen and faithful followers" which would not be a proper designation for angels, but for the redeemed. In order to come out of heaven, we must go there first, indicating a previous resurrection and catching away.

Proof #9: Kept from the hour of testing (Rev. 3:10)
Revelation 3:10 says we will be kept out of the hour of testing which will come upon the whole earth (the Tribulation). Some have wrongly believed "keep" means to be kept through, or to be protected through the Tribulation. But the words in the text are Tereo "to guard" and Ek "out of", properly, to "guard out of". He will keep us "out of" the hour of testing. It is not just the testing, but the time period. The Church will be called home before that hour of testing.

Proof #10: Angels don't resurrect people when they gather them for judgment.
When the angels are sent forth to gather the elect at the second coming (Matt. 24:29-31), some have wrongly interpreted this as the catching away. There is one huge problem with this interpretation. If we are resurrected at this time, why would we need angels to gather us? In the resurrection, Jesus said that we will be like the angels, in our glorified bodies (Matt. 22:30), able to travel in the air at will. Obviously, these people who are gathered are not resurrected, therefore it can't be referring to the catching away. No one would claim the wicked are caught up at this time, yet Matthew 13:39-41, 49 says the angels will not only gather the elect, but also the wicked. This gathering is not a resurrection, but is reference to those in their mortal bodies who will have made it though to the end that seven years, they being the wheat and the tares.

Proof #11: Both the wicked and the righteous can't be taken first.
First Thessalonians 4:13-17 says the righteous are taken and the wicked are left behind. Matthew 13:30, 49 says the wicked are taken first and righteous are left behind. This points to two separate events, the resurrection and the second coming.

Proof #12: Jesus returns from the wedding.
When Jesus returns to earth at the second coming, He will return from a wedding (Luke 12:36). At the resurrection, Jesus, the Bridegroom is married to His bride, the Church. After the wedding, He will return to earth and we with him.

Proof #13: Jesus will receive us to Himself, not us to receive Him (John 14:2-3).
Jesus said He would prepare a place for the Church in heaven, then He would come again to receive us to Himself. Why would Jesus prepare a place for us in heaven and then not take us there? At the resurrection and catching away, He will come to receive us to Himself, "that where I am (heaven), there you may be also." If the catching away occurred at the same time as the second coming, we would go up to the clouds and then immediately come back to earth. That would contradict John 14:2-3.

Proof #14: The one who restrains is taken out of the way.
In 2 Thess. 2:6-7, Paul says "the one who restrains will be taken out of the way" before the Antichrist can be revealed. We believe this refers to the catching away because the Church indwelt by the Holy Spirit, is clearly the biggest obstacle to the Antichrist becoming a world ruler.

Proof #15: The separation of the sheep and goats (Matt. 25:31-46)
If the resurrection and catching away occurred at the second coming, why would the sheep and the goats need to be separated immediately after the second coming? A catching away at the second coming would have already separated the sheep and the goats. With a Pre-Tribulation resurrection and catching away, the people saved after the church has been removed will need to be separated after the second coming. Also, notice that in Rev.20:4, only a resurrection is mentioned, but there is no mention of living believers being changed and caught up.

Proof #16: Who will populate the Millennium? If the catching away occurs at the second coming and the wicked are cast into hades at that time, who will be left to populate the millennium? Only people in their natural (non-resurrected) bodies will be able to have children (Matt. 22:30). With a Pre-Tribulation catching away, the people saved after that who are alive at the second coming will populate the earth during the Millennium.

 

[valiant]

I can defend the pretrib rapture handily with out those you reference.
I use the KJV and am a former member of an amil fellowship.

There is not one reference to a postrib rapture and anything but premil is a grand canyon ridiculous leap that has scripture twisted so bad it is ludicrous.

precisely my view of premill lol. twisting Scripture constantly, manipulating the Greek and Hebrew, failing to recognise context and with its head in the clouds

If there was a great tribulation mentioned in Scripture (which there is not) that referred to the end of the age post trib would be right as long as they ditched the spurious millennium.

 

[valiant]

Well, dear Valliant, the future will reveal.

very true. but the Scripture reveals it already

 

[ukok102nak]

John: 5. 46. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John: 5. 39. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
≈ THIS ARE WORDS OF OUR LORD CHRIST JESUS ≈

*this man is also a believer
Although his believed is different to those believers also . ...
Titus: 3. 3. For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

 

[Ahwatukee]

John: 5. 46. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

John: 5. 39. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
≈ THIS ARE WORDS OF OUR LORD CHRIST JESUS ≈

*this man is also a believer
Although his believed is different to those believers also . ...
Titus: 3. 3. For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

Hello ukok102nak,

In the scriptures that you mention above, Jesus is speaking to the Pharisee's and Jewish leaders. He is rebuking them for their unbelief, saying to them:

"Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

The reference to Moses writing about Jesus is found in Deut.18:15,18 which says,

"The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him."

Those men were not believers in Christ, which is why Jesus is rebuking them for their unbelief. In another scripture, he said to the Pharisees and the religious leaders:

"I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins."

I might also add, that in your example above it says, "for in them ye think ye have eternal life" not that they did.

 

[Ahwatukee]

precisely my view of premill lol. twisting Scripture constantly, manipulating the Greek and Hebrew, failing to recognise context and with its head in the clouds

If there was a great tribulation mentioned in Scripture (which there is not) that referred to the end of the age post trib would be right as long as they ditched the spurious millennium.

A post-trib resurrection and catching away is impossible and always for the same reason, the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, must take place prior to the Lord's return to end the age. Scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and therefore, believers must be removed prior to that wrath. Consequently, the post-trib version puts all believers through the entire wrath of God. At the end of Paul's teaching on the resurrection and catching away, he finished with, "Therefore comfort each other with these words." If believers were to go through the time of God's wrath, there would be no comfort, for we would be experiencing the same wrath of those who will have rejected Christ and are living according to the sinful nature. During that time of wrath the majority of the earth's population is going to be decimated and by the end, all human governments will be dismantled in preparation for Christ millennial kingdom on earth (Dan.2:31-35).

 

[valiant]

In order to prove their position, as you have done above, they site other writers as the reason for those who hold to a pre-trib catching away and I always tell them the same thing: I never learned that information from those people, but came to my own conclusions through the study of scripture. Here is a list in favor of why the resurrection and catching away will take place prior to the beginning of the seven years:[/quot]

that will be difficult as the seven years is a pure invention produced by twisting Scripture

Proof #1: Revelation 19:11-21 doesn't mention a resurrection.
The catching away is a resurrection of those "in Christ" (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Isn't it a little bit odd that in Rev. 19:11-21, which is the clearest picture of the second coming of Christ, there is no mention of a resurrection?

Not surprising at all. The rapture and resurrection is described in verses 7-9. what follows is the final judgment put in vivid terms. He brings His holy ones WITH HIM.

The catching away will be the biggest event since the resurrection of Jesus where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected and translated, yet there isn't any mention here. Don't you think it deserves at least one verse? The catching away isn't mentioned because it doesn't happen at the second coming.

It is mentioned but you are too blind to see it

Proof #2: Zechariah 14:1-15 doesn't mention a resurrection.
This is an Old Testament picture of Jesus returning to earth at the second coming. Again, no mention of a resurrection.

There is no mention of Jesus returning to earth at His second coming in Zch 14. Again you have a vivid imagination. Zech 14 refers to His first coming.

Proof #3: Two different pictures are painted.
In the Old Testament, there were two different pictures painted of the Messiah-one suffering (Isa. 53:2-10, Ps. 22:6-8, 11-18) and one reigning as King (Ps. 2:6-12, Zech. 14:9,16). As we look back on these scriptures, we see they predicted two separate comings of the Messiah-the 1st coming as a suffering Messiah and the 2nd coming (still future) as a reigning King.

My New Testament has Jesus suffering and then reigning as King (Acts 2.30-36; Col 1.13) at His first coming. Sad that you are blind to His kingship.

In the New Testament, we have another picture added. Again, we have two pictures painted which don't look the same. These two different descriptions of Jesus' coming point to two separate events we call "the resurrection and catching away" and "the second coming."

which occur at the same time. if they are two separate events why re they never mentioned as such in the same context?

Proof #4: The Known Day and the Unknown Day
Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't know and a day we can know. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matt. 24:15-21, 2 Thess. 2:4) This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation (Dan 9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Rev. 13:4) and will be destroyed by Jesus at His second coming (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thess. 2:8). The known and unknown days must happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.

All based on your wholly incorrect interpretation of Rev 12

Proof #5: A door open in heaven (Revelation 4:1)
The door in heaven is opened to let John into heaven. I believe John's call into heaven is prophetic of the church being caught up (see proof #6).

LOL Dream on. What you believe counts for nothing. Scripture, my dear man, Scripture!!

In Revelation 19:11, heaven is opened again, this time to let the armies which are already in heaven out. This is the Church, which has been raptured at a previous time, following Jesus out of heaven at the second coming.

No He resurrects the dead first then collects the raptured on the way

Also, I believe that the "trumpet call of God" in 1 Thes.4:16 is synonymous with "that voice that sounds like a trumpet, which says 'come up here' " in Rev.4:1

Do you also enjoy Peter Pan?

Proof #6: "Come up here." (Revelation 4:1)
A voice called for the apostle John to "Come up here," and immediately he was in heaven. This could be a prophetic reference to the catching away of the Church.

Strange that it doesn't make it clear. It could not be and it is not.

The words "Come up here" are spoken to the two witnesses who are killed in the middle of the Tribulation, who are resurrected and ascend into heaven (Rev. 11:12).

Not in the middle. This occurs at the end of time.

Therefore, the phrase "Come up here" could mean the church is caught up in Rev. 4:1. The word "church" is mentioned 22 times in Rev. 1-3, but is not mentioned again until Rev. 22:17 which is outside of the narrative.

But the overcomers are mentioned all the way through. And THEY ARE the church. The references to the churches are of such a nature that they would not fit into the visions.

Proof #7: The 24 elders have their crowns.
After John is called up into heaven, he sees the 24 elders with their crowns (Rev. 4:4-10). We know that Christians will receive their rewards (crowns) when we are caught up (2 Tim. 4:8, 1 Pet. 5:4). We will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous (Luke 14:14). The elders couldn't receive their crowns unless the resurrection and catching away has taken place.

Based on what evidence? What verse says that we will not receive our crowns until the resurrection? Besides the 24 elders are not the church. That is a Byzantine myth.

Proof #8 Holy ones are already with Jesus in heaven (Zech. 14:5, Rev. 19:14)
The armies in heaven riding on white horses and clothed in fine linen, follow Jesus out of heaven at His second coming (Rev. 19:14, Zech. 14:5, Col. 3:4). These are not angels because Rev. 19:7-8 has the bride receiving her fine linen just before her descent with the Lord.

I fail to see how one follows from the other? Why should the bride be the armies? Sounds rather incongruous. And we should note that in the Greek the descriptions of the garments are different. They are NOT parallel

Also, in Rev.17:14, those who return with him from heaven are identified as his "called, chosen and faithful followers" which would not be a proper designation for angels, but for the redeemed. In order to come out of heaven, we must go there first, indicating a previous resurrection and catching away.

I fail to see why angels cannot be called chosen and faithful. Scripture speaks of 'the elect (chosen) angels'. Argument fails.

Proof #9: Kept from the hour of testing (Rev. 3:10)
Revelation 3:10 says we will be kept out of the hour of testing which will come upon the whole earth (the Tribulation). Some have wrongly believed "keep" means to be kept through, or to be protected through the Tribulation. But the words in the text are Tereo "to guard" and Ek "out of", properly, to "guard out of". He will keep us "out of" the hour of testing. It is not just the testing, but the time period. The Church will be called home before that hour of testing.

But that is speaking ONLY of the church at Philadelphia. You say WE. Are you a member of the church of Philadelphia? It is a travesty to apply it to the whole church. THEY AND THEY ALONE of the church will escape the hour of testing. That proves in fact that they are in a world where there is much tribulation.

This really is an example of shameful slack exegesis. You are making Scripture mean what you want.

Proof #10: Angels don't resurrect people when they gather them for judgment.
When the angels are sent forth to gather the elect at the second coming (Matt. 24:29-31), some have wrongly interpreted this as the catching away. There is one huge problem with this interpretation. If we are resurrected at this time, why would we need angels to gather us?

LOL read what you said again. These are not the resurrected but the raptured

In the resurrection, Jesus said that we will be like the angels, in our glorified bodies (Matt. 22:30), able to travel in the air at will. Obviously, these people who are gathered are not resurrected, therefore it can't be referring to the catching away.

No they are raptured LOL a very different thing. Seems you are all mixed up.

No one would claim the wicked are caught up at this time, yet Matthew 13:39-41, 49 says the angels will not only gather the elect, but also the wicked.

yes as in Rev 19 they will be gathered for judgment.

This gathering is not a resurrection, but is reference to those in their mortal bodies who will have made it though to the end that seven years, they being the wheat and the tares.

In the one case it is a rapture. In the other it is a gathering to judgment.

Proof #11: Both the wicked and the righteous can't be taken first.
First Thessalonians 4:13-17 says the righteous are taken and the wicked are left behind. Matthew 13:30, 49 says the wicked are taken first and righteous are left behind. This points to two separate events, the resurrection and the second coming.

You are simply reading in what you want to find. Nothing in Matt 13 requires they be chronological. IT IS A PARABLE.

I think I have dealt with enough of this nonsense. I will leave it there.

 

[valiant]

A post-trib resurrection and catching away is impossible and always for the same reason, the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, must take place prior to the Lord's return to end the age. Scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and therefore, believers must be removed prior to that wrath. Consequently, the post-trib version puts all believers through the entire wrath of God. At the end of Paul's teaching on the resurrection and catching away, he finished with, "Therefore comfort each other with these words." If believers were to go through the time of God's wrath, there would be no comfort, for we would be experiencing the same wrath of those who will have rejected Christ and are living according to the sinful nature. During that time of wrath the majority of the earth's population is going to be decimated and by the end, all human governments will be dismantled in preparation for Christ millennial kingdom on earth (Dan.2:31-35).

But unbelievers are ALREADY going through wrath (Rom 1.18 ff) and believers are not appointed to undergo it. You are simply imagining a period which Scripture knows nothing about. You are just caught up in pretrib hallucinations.

Don't you believe that believers are being comforted, or that they can be in the direst situation? Shame on you.

AS for the seals, trumpets and bowls they have been going on for 2000 years. The seals were opened in 1st century AD. You simply don't understand Revelation.

 

[Ahwatukee]

that will be difficult as the seven years is a pure invention produced by twisting Scripture

Says you! But scripture says regarding the seventieth seven:

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.[SUP]"

[/SUP]He, that ruler of the people, has not made that covenant nor has he set up that abomination. The end of that seven is the return of Christ to end the age and therefore these events have not been fulfilled.

Not surprising at all. The rapture and resurrection is described in verses 7-9. what follows is the final judgment put in vivid terms. He brings His holy ones WITH HIM.

As usual being an amil, your take these events out of the chronological order in which they are found in Revelation. The resurrection and catching away takes place prior to the tribulation period, followed by the return of Christ to end the age, followed by the millennial period, followed by the great white throne judgment (final judgment) and that is the correct order of events.

It is mentioned but you are too blind to see it

I noticed that you didn't include where it is mentioned. As I said, there is no mention of the resurrection and catching away after Christ's return to end the age. The only reference to a resurrection is the resurrection of the great tribulation saints and there is no mention of the living being changed and caught up.

My New Testament has Jesus suffering and then reigning as King (Acts 2.30-36; Col 1.13) at His first coming. Sad that you are blind to His kingship.

That is a misinterpretation on your part. Jesus will be here physically ruling on this earth after he returns to end the age. You have pretty passive interpretation if you think that he is currently ruling through the saints. You have no idea what is going to come upon this earth.

In the New Testament, we have another picture added. Again, we have two pictures painted which don't look the same. These two different descriptions of Jesus' coming point to two separate events we call "the resurrection and catching away" and "the second coming."



which occur at the same time. if they are two separate events why re they never mentioned as such in the same context?

This is one biggest problems with expositors, that is, they have made the prophecy of the resurrection and catching away synonymous with the Christ's return to the earth to end the age, when they are two separate events.

I'm not even going to finish with the rest of it and that because, amillennialists are not concerned about listening to the real truth. They are only concerned about what they've been taught. The will completely ignore any proof regarding scripture and that because they have a pre-package interpretation for most end time biblical topics, which is why it is impossible to teach them. It is the same as if you were talking to a Jehovah's witness. They don't want to hear the truth, but only want to repeat what they've been taught.

You and other amil's will find out soon enough that everything that you have believed in is a false teaching and that when you see believers gone from the earth, that seven year covenant being made and the rest of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments begin to take place.

 

[Bowman]

Hello Bowman,

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments is a future, detailed account of the day of the Lord, the wrath of God. They will take place literally according to each judgment.

Show us....one, by one, complete with exegesis...thanks.......

 

[Ahwatukee]

Show us....one, by one, complete with exegesis...thanks.......

No, because you ignore scripture and are not interested in the truth. Believe what you will.

 

[Bowman]

No, because you ignore scripture and are not interested in the truth. Believe what you will.

Please don't run from the scripture that you preach.

 

[Bowman]

Bowman: 'Please provide step-by-step scriptural exegesis for your assertions.'

Ahwatukee: 'No can do. Like I already told you many times, I can’t defend what I assert. I don’t study the original languages like you do, brother. I just can’t be bothered. It takes way too much time. I just recycle my cut-n-pastes, and pray that no one calls me-out on them.'

 

[Ahwatukee]

Show us....one, by one, complete with exegesis...thanks.......

The best proof of this, is that there is no record of anything of such magnitude having ever taken place. These judgments are meant to carry out God's wrath as prophesied by the prophets, which is the day of the Lord. Of them, Jesus said, "It will be a time of great distress such as the world has not seen from the beginning of creation, until now and never to be equaled again. And following those judgments will be Christ's immediate return to the earth to end the age. It is only by misinterpretation and taking events out their chronological order and the allegorizing of events that you make your claims.

For example: Have you seen any demonic beings with tails and stings like that of scorpions running around the earth tormenting people for five months? No, you haven't. Have you seen a fourth of the earth's immediate population killed by weapons, famine, plague and by the wild beasts of the earth? No, you haven't! Have you seen something like a huge mountain (asteroid, meteorite) all ablaze hit any of the oceans killing a third of the creatures in the sea and destroying a third of the ships and that by the gigantic Tsunami's that will be the result of that thing hitting the ocean? Have you seen the sun sear people with intense heat, scorching them? Have you experienced the greatest earthquake to ever hit the earth so that the mountains and islands disappear? All of these things and more are coming upon the earth, but it won't start until that man of lawlessness makes his seven year covenant. The only way that you can respond is by symbolizing the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments so that they are not literal and that because the literal interpretation of them destroys amillennialism.

 

[Bowman]

The best proof of this, is that there is no record of anything of such magnitude having ever taken place. These judgments are meant to carry out God's wrath as prophesied by the prophets, which is the day of the Lord. Of them, Jesus said, "It will be a time of great distress such as the world has not seen from the beginning of creation, until now and never to be equaled again. And following those judgments will be Christ's immediate return to the earth to end the age. It is only by misinterpretation and taking events out their chronological order and the allegorizing of events that you make your claims.

For example: Have you seen any demonic beings with tails and stings like that of scorpions running around the earth tormenting people for five months? No, you haven't. Have you seen a fourth of the earth's immediate population killed by weapons, famine, plague and by the wild beasts of the earth? No, you haven't! Have you seen something like a huge mountain (asteroid, meteorite) all ablaze hit any of the oceans killing a third of the creatures in the sea and destroying a third of the ships and that by the gigantic Tsunami's that will be the result of that thing hitting the ocean? Have you seen the sun sear people with intense heat, scorching them? Have you experienced the greatest earthquake to ever hit the earth so that the mountains and islands disappear? All of these things and more are coming upon the earth, but it won't start until that man of lawlessness makes his seven year covenant. The only way that you can respond is by symbolizing the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments so that they are not literal and that because the literal interpretation of them destroys amillennialism.

All that, and not a single solitary scripture mentioned.

Scripture exegesis, brother...one...by one...don't be afraid...

 

[valiant]

history shows that the roman empire, that wagged war on the jews and christians,

by killing them.

Soooooo? '''''''''

 

[valiant]

The best proof of this, is that there is no record of anything of such magnitude having ever taken place. These judgments are meant to carry out God's wrath as prophesied by the prophets, which is the day of the Lord. Of them, Jesus said, "It will be a time of great distress such as the world has not seen from the beginning of creation, until now and never to be equaled again. And following those judgments will be Christ's immediate return to the earth to end the age. It is only by misinterpretation and taking events out their chronological order and the allegorizing of events that you make your claims.

For example: Have you seen any demonic beings with tails and stings like that of scorpions running around the earth tormenting people for five months? No, you haven't. Have you seen a fourth of the earth's immediate population killed by weapons, famine, plague and by the wild beasts of the earth? No, you haven't! Have you seen something like a huge mountain (asteroid, meteorite) all ablaze hit any of the oceans killing a third of the creatures in the sea and destroying a third of the ships and that by the gigantic Tsunami's that will be the result of that thing hitting the ocean? Have you seen the sun sear people with intense heat, scorching them? Have you experienced the greatest earthquake to ever hit the earth so that the mountains and islands disappear? All of these things and more are coming upon the earth, but it won't start until that man of lawlessness makes his seven year covenant. The only way that you can respond is by symbolizing the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments so that they are not literal and that because the literal interpretation of them destroys amillennialism.

Rubbish !!!!!!!!!!!

 

[DiscipleDave]

Originally Posted by DiscipleDave

satan is both bound and not bound. Scriptures teaches that satan will be bound in the Abyss for a thousand years, this has not yet occurred. Yet satan is bound to the vicinity of the Earth, he can't leave this planet, all of which is a part of God's Master Plan. For more information on that read "The Meaning of Life". ( a link relevant to the topic being discussed)

^i^ responding to OP

The 1000 years occurred when all Rome became Christian by Law and every other pagan god was shut down.
The people universally had t attend to Churches which were build over all the Roman World.

lol, and you think satan was bound during that time? Seriously? The devil was not bound, he still was present, and all the demons were present during that time also. Are you trying to tell me, NOBODY sinned at all because satan was bound during that time period? If one person committed sin during that time, i assure you satan was still active and NOT bound. YOU say he was bound, because your thinking is in error. When satan is bound for a thousand years, he will not be able to tempt ANYONE, because he is bound, hello. satan is not bound now, nor has he been bound in the past, you do error believing that false doctrine.

Rev. 20:1 And I saw an angel, (i.e.; a social manifestation of inter-generational authority), come down from heaven (manifesting in the enactment of Law in 380 AD, Emperor Theodosius I, established Catholic Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire and ordering pagans and other sects of Christianity to be called heretics), having the key, (the authority of Universal Christianity), to the bottomless pit (of history) and a great chain (of cultural restraints) in his hand (by which to implement social change).

OH MY!!! who has been telling you these things? i assure you it is not from God, nor from the Holy Spirit of TRUTH. Interpretations belong to God, NOT to men. What you see above is the reason interpretations should NEVER be given to man, because they come up with this above. Scriptures interprets Scriptures. ALL of what you interpret above comes from the mind of men, and not from God or the Holy Spirit. i will pray for you.

Rev. 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, (the subtle cultural system of exploitative sexual mores), that old serpent, (cultural Paganism), which is the devil (of sexual license), and (libidinal lustfulness of) satan, and bound him, (the dragon), a thousand (1000) Years (during the reign of Christ throughout the DARK AGES), ...

Rev. 20:3 And cast him, (this dragon, the subtle cultural system of exploitative sexual mores, that old serpent, cultural Paganism), into the bottomless pit (of time), and shut him, (Satan), up (Monasticism for 1000 years so as to inhibit the culture of libidinal freedom and sexual excess), and set a seal, (the Cross), upon him, that he (could not maintain that pagan, astrological/mythological sexually promiscuous religious subculture that) should deceive the nations (in the Western world) no more (with his pagan culture), ...
... till the thousand years (of the Dark Age of Monasticism) should be fulfilled (and the Renaissance of the Beast begin):
and after that, (in The Renaissance), he must be loosed (to open the adolescent subculture of ever increasing sexual permissiveness) a little season (of @ 1000 years: [Rev 20:2]).

Woe to men that interpret the Word of God. Interpretations belong to GOD, not to men. and now it should be evident to all others who read this, why it interpretations should NEVER be in the hands of men.

^i^ responding to post #790

 

[ukok102nak]

Hello ukok102nak,

In the scriptures that you mention above, Jesus is speaking to the Pharisee's and Jewish leaders. He is rebuking them for their unbelief, saying to them:

"Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

The reference to Moses writing about Jesus is found in Deut.18:15,18 which says,

"The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him."

Those men were not believers in Christ, which is why Jesus is rebuking them for their unbelief. In another scripture, he said to the Pharisees and the religious leaders:

"I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins."

I might also add, that in your example above it says, "for in them ye think ye have eternal life" not that they did.

Ahwatukee sir,
:smoke: this is one of those words that our lord Christ Jesus
please :happy:
:read:
Mark: 3. 28. Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29. But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Those men were not believers in Christ indeed
burt those men were believers of Moises and that's the reason why
Our lord Jesus Christ utter the written scriptures which Moises wrote by himself
which those unbelievers misinterpret becaused
John: 8. 54. Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55. Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58. Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
*For Those men who are unbelievers do not even know
the difference between the physical word and the spiritual word of
Our Lord God the father almighty who is good and who doesn't lie
cannot be in found everywhere for he is not everywhere . ...

look at this verse brother
and take samples of what is spiritual and what is physical or literal
"not that ye think ye have eternal life" is not matter most
For in them the eternal life is
been granted also as promise to all the gentiles
1 Timothy: 3. 16. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Ephesians: 3. 6. That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

:smoke: thank you very much :happy:

 

[valiant]

Says you! But scripture says regarding the seventieth seven:

"He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.[SUP]"[/SUP]

[SUP]

As usual you misquote and manipulate Scripture. You have already been shown why you are in error on this. But you continue to propagate lies

[/SUP]

He, that ruler of the people, has not made that covenant nor has he set up that abomination. The end of that seven is the return of Christ to end the age and therefore these events have not been fulfilled

.

Absolute nonsense. The seventieth seven followed the sixty ninth immediately and chronologically. Any interpretation that ignores that fact is self-evidently wrong.

As usual being an amil, your take these events out of the chronological order in which they are found in Revelation.

You mean I reject your interpretation of the chronological order? You are correct in that.

The resurrection and catching away takes place prior to the tribulation period,

There is no 'tribulation period', only continued tribulation.

followed by the return of Christ to end the age, followed by the millennial period,

There is no millennial period. You simply live on fantasy. So you believe that the king fails his subjects in the end?

followed by the great white throne judgment (final judgment) and that is the correct order of events.

The correct order is rapture and resurrection, final judgment, everlasting kingdom..

I noticed that you didn't include where it is mentioned. As I said, there is no mention of the resurrection and catching away after Christ's return to end the age. The only reference to a resurrection is the resurrection of the great tribulation saints and there is no mention of the living being changed and caught up.

you talk such rubbish without evidence.

That is a misinterpretation on your part. Jesus will be here physically ruling on this earth after he returns to end the age.

NOWHERE does Scripture say so. Scripture has Jesus reigning NOW. Read Acts

You have pretty passive interpretation if you think that he is currently ruling through the saints.

You call it passive that the mighty Messiah is ruling from His throne in Heaven determining the destiny of this world? Seems pretty active to me. YOUR Jesus is tucked out of the way doing nothing.

You have no idea what is going to come upon this earth.

Nor have you

This is one biggest problems with expositors, that is, they have made the prophecy of the resurrection and catching away synonymous with the Christ's return to the earth to end the age, when they are two separate events.

Yes Christ's return IMMEDIATELY follows the rapture and resurrection