The Law Debacle Resolved
- Thread starter JaumeJ
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That's pretty vague and ambiguous. Which commands? Oh, that's right... THE MORAL LAW... which is really just another name for the 10 commandments. So your claim earlier that no one here teaches that works have to be done to be saved is patently false, because you say the narrow gate is doing the 10 commandments (i.e., your MORAL LAW), and scripture says that only those who enter via the narrow gate will be saved.
Have I accurately described your position?
Have I accurately described your position?
K
This sound eerily familiar to another member who use to be on here, who said they would just stand there and pray when seeing a person raped instead of use force to get the attacker off of them.
God works through us by His Holy Spirit for us to do His will, now we still have a choice to obey that or not as we are not puppets on strings. The Lord will remain faithful and continue to come after us to bring us to Him and His ways, but it has to be out choice as well to accept Him !!!
I guess that makes you a Warlock?
Romans 10:3-5 (KJV)
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Turning faith into a matter of our obedience to the law.
Romans 10:3-5 (KJV)
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Turning faith into a matter of our obedience to the law.
K
Thats not very Christian like. several weeks back, I joined and saw a lot of strife. I hope it isn't the same thing here. 
I thought believing people could have conversation that are without that. I ask God, should I look for a more gentile chat site? This is emotionally sad. Why???????
I thought believing people could have conversation that are without that. I ask God, should I look for a more gentile chat site? This is emotionally sad. Why???????
K
Wrong as those words never came from me that we have to work for salvation, again you constantly read what you want to see in what others say instead of hearing the truth.
Works of obedience in the faith are proof of one who is truly saved through Christ, they are not nor are they ever what earns, maintains, or gets one salvation. They are the product of a true saving faith through Christ !!!
Please stop reading things into what people say when they didn't, and go do a study where every place the NT which is the teachings of the new covenant bring up the 10 Commandments. Then you will see that it says nobody who transgresses those will inherit eternal life !!!
The law still exists for those who transgress it !!!
Works of obedience in the faith are proof of one who is truly saved through Christ, they are not nor are they ever what earns, maintains, or gets one salvation. They are the product of a true saving faith through Christ !!!
Please stop reading things into what people say when they didn't, and go do a study where every place the NT which is the teachings of the new covenant bring up the 10 Commandments. Then you will see that it says nobody who transgresses those will inherit eternal life !!!
The law still exists for those who transgress it !!!
B
Really now?
Soooo you're saying if I decide to celebrate Passover, no wait let's take a day that everyone observes.
Pentecost, say I decide to observe Pentecost, I am doing a work for salvation?
Because Pentecost is a commanded feast.
So based on your wording, everyone who has ever celebrate Pentecost, is doing works for salvation.
No that is not true.
Don't know what bible you're reading, but I would like the scripture to support your theory.
Well I know it's hard to get straightforward speech from you, so I have to do the best I can to accurately understand your doctrine. So let me get some clarity here. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
"Works of obedience in the faith" are observing the 10 commandments (your moral law). Correct?
If someone does not do these works, they are not truly saved? Correct?
If we keep the law it doesn't exist, but if we don't keep the law, it does exist? Correct?
"Works of obedience in the faith" are observing the 10 commandments (your moral law). Correct?
If someone does not do these works, they are not truly saved? Correct?
If we keep the law it doesn't exist, but if we don't keep the law, it does exist? Correct?
K
New International Version
("Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.") This was before the Holly Spirit was sent in our behalf.
Old Testament. Jews were still working in the law. The narrow door is Christ himself. People that come working the law thinking they know Jesus won't do through the door.
New International Version
To this end I strenuously contend with all the energy Christ so powerfully works in me....
(."Christ so powerfully "Works in me". It is his efforts not mine. He gets all the glory." "He works in me")= works through me.
Kefa
("Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.") This was before the Holly Spirit was sent in our behalf.
Old Testament. Jews were still working in the law. The narrow door is Christ himself. People that come working the law thinking they know Jesus won't do through the door.
New International Version
To this end I strenuously contend with all the energy Christ so powerfully works in me....
(."Christ so powerfully "Works in me". It is his efforts not mine. He gets all the glory." "He works in me")= works through me.
Kefa
K
First reading something not said into what another person has posted is not the fault of the poster, but of the one who reads it.
Because if you are unclear of what was said you are to ask questions instead of just state a person said something they never did !!!
Again it is not my doctrine so please do not state that, as the Lord Jesus Christ set the standards and gave the teachings and commands for us to abide by; Not me !!!
Works of obedience are proof of one who is truly saved in Christ as the Holy Spirit that abides in a person can not have them deny or not do what the Lord had said; For He can not deny Himself !!!
We are told two greatest commands to obey: To love Him with all our heart, soul, and mind and to love others as ourselves.
By doing this all other commands given by the Lord our God will be established and upheld, because if you love God as commanded:
1) You would not put any other gods before Him, would not worship idols, and would do what He has said
If you love others as yourself:
2) You would not murder, lie about, steal from, covet what they have, and do good toward them....etc.
There must be something more here. Why is it when we all basically agree good works are the fruit of salvation, it is a temptation to say, obey Jesus's commands is salvation by works.
Jesus himself is ambiguous. Believe Jesus is who is and you will be saved. Obey his commands and he will show himself to you. If you love Him you will obey his commandments. There is a wonderful probably eternal cause and effect, ie they are together.
Now this creates a problem if you say obedience is legalism, and faith does not lead to obedience. If Jesus did not distinguish between these two ideas why should we? Unless ofcourse you claim a higher authority?
Jesus also points to the reality by walking in love you fulfill all that is intended by the law and the prophets. Acknowledging this reality is acknowledging the very words Jesus spoke, it is not legalism. So again why is this an argument.
If there is contention over this, look to your own hearts, because it is not the Holy Spirit who brings contention on this.
A small digression. I was doing some plumbing. I was certain the thread meant going clockwise would undo the bolt. When the pipe started bending I realised I was 100% wrong. So likewise, in spiritual things, if you stand against Jesus and what he is saying, it is not His word that is wrong.
Jesus himself is ambiguous. Believe Jesus is who is and you will be saved. Obey his commands and he will show himself to you. If you love Him you will obey his commandments. There is a wonderful probably eternal cause and effect, ie they are together.
Now this creates a problem if you say obedience is legalism, and faith does not lead to obedience. If Jesus did not distinguish between these two ideas why should we? Unless ofcourse you claim a higher authority?
Jesus also points to the reality by walking in love you fulfill all that is intended by the law and the prophets. Acknowledging this reality is acknowledging the very words Jesus spoke, it is not legalism. So again why is this an argument.
If there is contention over this, look to your own hearts, because it is not the Holy Spirit who brings contention on this.
A small digression. I was doing some plumbing. I was certain the thread meant going clockwise would undo the bolt. When the pipe started bending I realised I was 100% wrong. So likewise, in spiritual things, if you stand against Jesus and what he is saying, it is not His word that is wrong.
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K
This has nothing to do with before or after the Holy Spirit was given, as that is the lie of the Paulinians who take and try to say what the Lord said is not for all believers in Him. They completely reject the Great Commission of Matthew 28:19-20 that clearly states that what the Lord commanded and taught is for all believers.
B
Does an athlete, lets say using football because I'm most familiar with it.
At the beginning where there's the coin toss, the ref will say to play safe and have a fair game.
Now the ref never goes into detail of what "a fair game is". It's automatically assumed the coaches have taught the players the rules of the game.
Or look at boxing, the ref will say watch this and that and hae a fair fight, the ref does not go over the whole rule book.
The refs are just summing up the entirety of the rule book.
Just like if one follows these 2 commandments, they'll fall in line with observing Torah.
Now to add on that, if someone is not doing something as far as one of the particualar feasts or something along those lines, I do not believe it is ok from someone to judge that person for not doing so. But in the other case I do not believe it is ok from someone to judge someone who does follow the feasts, because ultimately the feasts were God given and not man made.
At the beginning where there's the coin toss, the ref will say to play safe and have a fair game.
Now the ref never goes into detail of what "a fair game is". It's automatically assumed the coaches have taught the players the rules of the game.
Or look at boxing, the ref will say watch this and that and hae a fair fight, the ref does not go over the whole rule book.
The refs are just summing up the entirety of the rule book.
Just like if one follows these 2 commandments, they'll fall in line with observing Torah.
Now to add on that, if someone is not doing something as far as one of the particualar feasts or something along those lines, I do not believe it is ok from someone to judge that person for not doing so. But in the other case I do not believe it is ok from someone to judge someone who does follow the feasts, because ultimately the feasts were God given and not man made.
Emotional intelligence
There is a reality is those who live as if ideas are neutral and emotions have nothing to do with conviction will always be victims of their own experience. We are at base emotional with an intellect that presents ideas to explain our convictions.
If you cannot delve into the emotional side of your life, you will always be a slave to how you feel, and fit your view of the world to justify it. If on the other hand you can see different emotional positions and are prepared to shift and balance different experiences, then as Jesus says, He will set you free. I am convinced this is an essential reality to maturity in the Lord, which many here obviously have not achieved.
I would not doubt their own experiences but they are very blinkered in seeing what we are saying, which is plain as day.
We are called to love and be encouraging, so I hope we can honour our Lord in being obedient to his commands.
There is a reality is those who live as if ideas are neutral and emotions have nothing to do with conviction will always be victims of their own experience. We are at base emotional with an intellect that presents ideas to explain our convictions.
If you cannot delve into the emotional side of your life, you will always be a slave to how you feel, and fit your view of the world to justify it. If on the other hand you can see different emotional positions and are prepared to shift and balance different experiences, then as Jesus says, He will set you free. I am convinced this is an essential reality to maturity in the Lord, which many here obviously have not achieved.
I would not doubt their own experiences but they are very blinkered in seeing what we are saying, which is plain as day.
We are called to love and be encouraging, so I hope we can honour our Lord in being obedient to his commands.
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