The Law Debacle Resolved

[RickyZ]

Why would a child of God steal a car when we know He supplies all our need?

Obviously you, Angela, eternally, and Billy completely missed the gist of zzz's question.

 

[KennethC]

Wow. The phrase "before faith in Jesus is established" just reeks of works of law.

Continue to believe how you wish and trying to twist what another said when they said nothing of the sort !!!

The Word of God clearly says faith comes from hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17), this means after hearing the word a person trust in what it says and puts their faith in the Lord.

This faith in the Lord puts us under God's grace, if everybody is under God's grace before they have faith in the Lord then everybody is saved. That however is not true !!!

Lord Jesus Himself showed what a believer in Him looks like, and nowhere in the bible does it say a hearer only is saved !!! It shows both by Jesus and James that a hearer only has no foundation in Him and is deceived !!!

 

[Magenta]

AMEN, Gods love covered all of mine, Sadly it was with the blood of his son

Before I came to a saving faith in the propitiatory sacrifice Jesus made on our behalf, I used to wonder, why did He have to die? And I felt sad about it, not really understanding anything much about the gospel, or the Bible, or God's plan for humanity, which was laid from before the foundation of the world. Now I understand that For the joy set before Him He endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Jesus gave His life joyfully for our sake. Jesus, thank you, for laying down Your life for us, that in You we may find greater more abundant life.

 

[crossnote]

Again Matthew 28:19-20 is for all believers Gentile and Jewish alike, as His teachings He gave to the Jewish Apostles they were to give on to Gentile believers.

Reading the epistles we can see the Apostles expounded on all that the Lord taught in the gospel books of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

Sorry, I see the Gospel of grace laid out clearly in John and the Epistles, but the Gospel of the Kingdom laid out in Mt, Mk, Lu.
Although the Gospel was enacted in all 4 Gospels and explained in the Epistles.
You keep assuming that what Jesus taught His Apostles for forty days AFTER His resurrection was NOT what they taught in their Epistles.
And if it was, then salvation is a work of God from beginning to end.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Again you are speaking of Jesus commissioning the Apostles to go out to bring in the lost sheep of the Jews first, and in turn you are trying to make it contradict the Great Commission of Matthew 28:19-20.

Pulling scriptures out of context to make them stand alone to prove a faulty point does His word no justice.

Well obviously then, the command to observe the law was not something that Jesus taught because Peter didn't teach that. Just the opposite. Acts 15 proves that.

 

[crossnote]

Just a thought...

Why would Jesus spend 40 days teaching them after the resurrection when He had just spent three years with them?

Acts 1:3 (KJV) To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

 

[PeterJens]

we are only in agreement if you believe this.


1. I repent and have faith in the finsihed work of Christ, --> He saves e and gives me eternal life
2. I trust hi in an area of my life. He proves trustworthy, I trust him in other areas of my life - again he proves trustworthy
3. The more steps of faith I take, the more he proves trustworthy.
4. Because of the above, My faith may waver from time to time, but will NEVER FAE AWAY TO NOTHING (God I believe help me in my unbelief) This, my security is not in my work, not in deeds, but n Christ, Who has and wil never fail me. (I have an Abba Father

Since my faith will never fail. I will never lose salvation, My faith has set me free as Jesus says.

If you do not believe this. then no. we are not united. we are apposed. because someone claims to have faith in Christ, But in reality he does not

I will translate this simply. Though we obey the Lord it does not justify us before Him. Ofcourse. Even when we are face to face with Jesus, he is still our righteousness, our perfection, the source of our life.

Jesus does not have to prove his trustworthyness to me, he died for me, he rescued me, he knows all about me, I just need to listen and obey, put my faith in him and do faith works, and then I will arrive at the next point in our walk.

You talk about faith, the testing of faith, and not loosing it so staying saved. In my language it would be continuing to talk to the Lord with a believers approach.

So it sounds like we agree, so amen, welcome brother.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Obviously you, Angela, eternally, and Billy completely missed the gist of zzz's question.

oh, how so?

 

[Magenta]

Why would Jesus spend 40 days teaching them after the resurrection when He had just spent three years with them?

He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things.”

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things.”

amen, and they got all that from the law and prophets.

 

[crossnote]

He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things.”

Right, a full blast of the Gospel.
Ever wonder why they didn't get it for the previous 3 years and now they did?
I mean Jesus could have done that same lesson earlier AND opened their understanding.

 

[PeterJens]

Matthew 28:19-20 was said after the resurrection. While he was in the flesh his mission was solely to Israel, and everything he said must be interpreted in that context.

Jesus is the cornerstone of the whole revelation through Israel to the whole world. His ministry was to declare the final chapter in that revelation. After the message was complete, it was to the whole world. So Jesus's focus was always on the Jews because that was the context. Until the gospel was finished, death and resurrection, the picture was only visible via Israel and the law and the prophets.

He always knew this context was everything, until the curtain was torn in two access to God was only through faith in God and obedience to Jewish law.

 

[Magenta]

Right, a full blast of the Gospel.
Ever wonder why they didn't get it for the previous 3 years and now they did?
I mean Jesus could have done that same lesson earlier AND opened their understanding.

They were in the flesh for those three years, is all I can think, and they seem to all have doubted, or at least misunderstood, and constantly, to the point where Jesus addressed Peter as Satan. They had not yet been inhabited/indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God.

 

[crossnote]

They were in the flesh for those three years, is all I can think, and they seem to all have doubted, or at least misunderstood, and constantly, to the point where Jesus addressed Peter as Satan. They had not yet been inhabited/indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God.

As I partially understand it,
Jesus began preaching repentance and the Gospel of the Kingdom (for the King was amongst them) and it's principles.
Later in His ministry the Jewish leadership had rejected that message thus rejecting their King/Messiah.
He then began teaching in parables and mainly to His disciples including his approaching passion. They couldn't receive it as it went against their preconceived ideas of the Messiah.
After His death He opened their understanding and that is what we have written in the Epistles.

 

[PeterJens]

Right, a full blast of the Gospel.
Ever wonder why they didn't get it for the previous 3 years and now they did?
I mean Jesus could have done that same lesson earlier AND opened their understanding.

Jesus was very keen on the disciples not changing the events. Jesus had to die, and his disciples had to become his friends.
One year, too short, two years, ok but only gone over the passover twice, 3 times perfect, just long enough to really change their lives, not too long to cause too many complications with revolutionary takeover of Jerusalem which many wanted. You realise in one week the disciples went from followers to the only representatives on earth of the gospel, to the first witnesses and at the cost of their lives, the beginning of the Kingdom on earth.

You got to admire Gods timing, and patience. We would go for longer because so much was a stake, and we wonder why the disciples were so slow, when ofcourse the teacher was God, I mean, no. He was just a wise guy who seemed cool. As long as everything went ok, why not tag along. No one thought, bam, the authorities will put us on trial, take everything we have and kill us just for following a teacher and healer. I mean these guys are two a penny. But maybe he is different, no it could not be me who is talking to the Father, God in human form. What would you do if Jesus turned up on your doorstep?

You would think it was a joke at first, I mean, impossible....

 

[crossnote]

Jesus was very keen on the disciples not changing the events. Jesus had to die, and his disciples had to become his friends.
One year, too short, two years, ok but only gone over the passover twice, 3 times perfect, just long enough to really change their lives, not too long to cause too many complications with revolutionary takeover of Jerusalem which many wanted. You realise in one week the disciples went from followers to the only representatives on earth of the gospel, to the first witnesses and at the cost of their lives, the beginning of the Kingdom on earth.

You got to admire Gods timing, and patience. We would go for longer because so much was a stake, and we wonder why the disciples were so slow, when ofcourse the teacher was God, I mean, no. He was just a wise guy who seemed cool. As long as everything went ok, why not tag along. No one thought, bam, the authorities will put us on trial, take everything we have and kill us just for following a teacher and healer. I mean these guys are two a penny. But maybe he is different, no it could not be me who is talking to the Father, God in human form. What would you do if Jesus turned up on your doorstep?

You would think it was a joke at first, I mean, impossible....

Yes the events had to go down as was foretold by the prophets. That’s settled.
Now, just moving into the realm of speculation, what would have transpired if the vast majority of Jews including their leaders had submitted themselves to their true Messiah Yeshua? The death of Christ would not have happened, the Kingdom set up in Israel, immediate Millennium and no mystery called the Church...the Body of Christ, no rapture, etc.
The death of Christ brought in a whole new twist to things although foretold.

 

[ember]

hmm, a baptist that teaches one can lose the free gift of eternal life.

What group of baptists would this be? I grew up a baptist and never thought or was taught this, but once. and that pastor did not last long.

now he didn't actually say he was a baptist...he said he goes to a baptist church

I think you are trying to divert the thread

no baptist here...but I did grow up...kinda

 

[zzz98]

"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”
Acts 16:30-31

So now they can just sit back and do nothing, grace will do the rest. No going to church, meeting together, talking, sharing, doing good works, prayer, forgiving, fasting, showing hospitality, laying on of hands. The faith is just believing, that is all.
Anything else is works and earning your salvation.

Now if you think the things above are good what are they? Believers do them, say it is part of following Jesus. Now if there is no benefit to these actions, why do them. I mean you are saved, everything that needs to be done has been done.
There are no righteous deeds to do, works, or law to keep, legalism, or discipline to exercise, being a pharisee.

You do do these things, but how do you justify it in words? I say this is working out your sanctification, going from redeemed sinner to sanctified saint.

Thank You. This is how I see it also!!!!!

 

[RickyZ]

oh, how so?

Go back and read his question. He was pondering and seeking clarification on the license to sin aspect of OSAS. I was clarifying why it is NOT a license to sin. Your assertion that a believer shouldn't desire to sin, while true, was totally irrelevant to the question he asked.

 

[crossnote]

Thank You. This is how I see it also!!!!!

So do you think once a person is born again they will do nothing?

With the salvation we already have, God is busy at work .

Philippians 2:12-13 (KJV)
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.