How can God justify the ungodly and still maintain His integrity to His law?

[Roberth]

I'm SDA and I don't know Jack Sequeria,....;

Okay....Would you consider yourself a historic, traditional SDA?

Here's SDA who I tend to agree with: Morris Venden (who is dead now) and Jack Sequeira

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ec83wW4JX4s

 

[Roberth]

Anyway, back to the subject.

Does having a sinful nature make you a sinner?

Yes, because we are born without God's Spirit and we therefore automatically sin. We do this because our minds are in harmony with the desires of our natures. But here Jesus was born differently:

Christ was born as we are "born again". That simply means He was born with God's Spirit fully controlling His mind. Therefore the sin nature that He assumed, by assuming us, was never allowed to have its way through the power of the Spirit of God. Hence Christ never sinned, not even a thought.

However, the humanity that He was made (at the incarnation) came from Adam. That humanity stood condemned because of indwelling sin (i.e., our bent-to-self or iniquity). Therefore Christ took a condemned humanity, not a guilty humanity. There's a difference. Let me explain:

Let's say you are hitching a ride. A car stops to pick you up, but what you don't know is the driver is under the influence of drugs. Anyway, because he under the influence, he takes a corner too fast and you both die.

Now, who is the sinner in this example?

The driver, the one abusing drugs. He's breaking the law.

Did you die too? Yes! Why, were you guilty? No, you didn't do anything wrong in this example. But because you were in his car his sin condemned you.

Christ is God. He didn't stop being God at the incarnation. At the incarnation Christ as God united Himself to our fallen humanity. Jesus as God got in the car, if you will. Did that make Him a sinner? No! But because He united himself to our fallen life He, as the Son of man, became condemned. Condemned, yes, sinner, no!

 

[onlinebuddy]

Originally Posted by Roberth

"In Christ" we stand justified, sanctified and redeemed (glorified). This is our standing in Christ through faith. In Him we are perfect now and in the judgment. We can add nothing to this through our works. To try to add to God's work "in Christ" is legalism.

Gal 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.



Roberth,
You are discussing about the moral law, but you have quote verses about ceremonial law(circumcision). This is why I say that you have quoted verses out of context.

Originally Posted by onlinebuddy

You didn't answer my question.

Because your question is based on error.

Roberth, You conveniently ignore my questions saying they are in error.
You claim to know the Gospel without error, yet I'm again pointing out the error you made (see quoted posts)
You have confused the moral law with the ceremonial law.
I am bringing this up again so that you would not be so overconfident about what you have come to understand.

 

[onlinebuddy]

"In Christ" we stand justified, sanctified and redeemed (glorified). This is our standing in Christ through faith. In Him we are perfect now and in the judgment. We can add nothing to this through our works. To try to add to God's work "in Christ" is legalism.

Gal 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Roberth,
Here's another question that I had asked you earlier, but you did not answer it.
First read it carefully and then challenge me if it is in error...
Q. How does man try to add to God's works? Please give examples.

 

[onlinebuddy]

I repeat my question from a previous post: If you would share the gospel with a tribe in the Amazon, who have never heard of the Law, what would you tell them? Would you teach them the Law or would you teach them faith in the Son of God, who was manifested in the flesh for our sake?

Please be kind enough to answer my question. I don't think there is any error therein.
If I am in error, I am open to correction.

 

[onlinebuddy]

How did we die 2000 years ago, when we were not yet born?
What died? Our bodies, souls, spirits, sinful natures....?

Here's another another unanswered question.
If you have answered it in another post, would you mind repeating the answer.
If you choose not to answer, I would not be offended.

 

[onlinebuddy]

How do you explain the following verse? "



He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.[1 Pet 2:24]


Christ as God is eternal. He is sinless, but at the incarnation Christ took upon His Deity our fallen humanity indwelt with iniquity. So He bore the results of "our sins" in His body since He assumed our fallen humanity. He assumed us to redeem us from under the curse of the law.

That does not answer my question.
Does "our sins" mean transgressions or iniquity. Please point out bible verses.
Thanks for your patience.

 

[onlinebuddy]

Let me add verse 25..
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we f might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.[SUP]25[/SUP]For you were straying like sheep, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. [1 Pet 2:24-25]
Please note that, as I have pointed out to you earlier, 1 Pet 2:24 says "die to sin" and not just "die."
The verse also says that by his wounds you (we) have been healed.

Q. Healed from what?
Your Answer (I'm guessing based on your previous posts): Healed from our fallen condition as the result of Adamic sin?
Now, if you say that we are healed from our fallen condition, let's read further. Our condition is specified in the next verse....v.25

Our condition: We "were straying like sheep"
To me, that sounds like personal transgression (willful sin), and not the effects of Adam's sin in us.
Our fallen human natures are because Adam strayed. This verse is talking about us straying, not Adam.

Q. Whom does the word "you" in verse 25 refer to?
My answer: It refers to the ones who "have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls"
Peter is referring to believers who have received Christ through faith and repentance, etc.
So "you" does not refer to fallen mankind!

Here's the gist:
=>Christ bore our sins in his body(his human side took our penalty and died on the cross)
=> Christ died for our sins (the condition that required healing); not to free us from the (bent-to-self) condition as a result of Adams sin.
=> He took upon himself the penalty of our willful sin.
=>What should our response be? We must resolve to "die to sin" and live to (or for) righteousness (with the assistance of our helper and counselor and comforter-the Holy Spirit).
=>This death (dying to sin) is not something that happened to us unconsciously and in auto mode 2000 years ago.
=>To "die to sin" is a conscious decision to fight sin (so as to avoid being subject to the Law of sin mentioned by Paul in Romans 3 through 7)
This doesn't mean that we will be without sin (as you were implying earlier).
It is a pledge to live in obedience to the commands of Jesus.

Roberth,
Kindly comment/refute/accept...

 

[onlinebuddy]

Anyway, back to the subject.

Does having a sinful nature make you a sinner?

Yes, because we are born without God's Spirit and we therefore automatically sin. We do this because our minds are in harmony with the desires of our natures. But here Jesus was born differently:

Christ was born as we are "born again". That simply means He was born with God's Spirit fully controlling His mind. Therefore the sin nature that He assumed, by assuming us, was never allowed to have its way through the power of the Spirit of God. Hence Christ never sinned, not even a thought.

However, the humanity that He was made (at the incarnation) came from Adam. That humanity stood condemned because of indwelling sin (i.e., our bent-to-self or iniquity). Therefore Christ took a condemned humanity, not a guilty humanity. There's a difference. Let me explain:

Let's say you are hitching a ride. A car stops to pick you up, but what you don't know is the driver is under the influence of drugs. Anyway, because he under the influence, he takes a corner too fast and you both die.

Now, who is the sinner in this example?

The driver, the one abusing drugs. He's breaking the law.

Did you die too? Yes! Why, were you guilty? No, you didn't do anything wrong in this example. But because you were in his car his sin condemned you.

Christ is God. He didn't stop being God at the incarnation. At the incarnation Christ as God united Himself to our fallen humanity. Jesus as God got in the car, if you will. Did that make Him a sinner? No! But because He united himself to our fallen life He, as the Son of man, became condemned. Condemned, yes, sinner, no!

Does having a sinful nature make you a sinner?

Let us consider two option a) Yes b) No
a)If the answer to your question was "Yes, that makes me a sinner" it would mean that I need to be redeemed.
b) If my answer was "no, it does not make me a sinner," then I do not need anyone to die for my fallen condition. However, I need someone to die for my willfully sin after I was born.

IMO, there is no difference between iniquity and transgression. I guess the Bible uses these terms interchangeably.

Yes, because we are born without God's Spirit

Bible verse please

we therefore automatically sin.

Untrue. Every human being (unlike animals) is born with a conscience. We sin when we violate that conscience.

Christ was born as we are "born again".

Bible verse please

However, the humanity that He was made (at the incarnation) came from Adam.

His humanity came from Eve, his divinity came from the seed of the Holy Spirit, as prophesied. He was born in the Adamic lineage, as prophesied, but was not born of the physical seed of Adam, as he was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit. Therefore he had the unfallen nature of Adam (before Adam sinned), and the earthly fleshly human nature from Eve. That's how he is 100% God and 100% human.

Appreciate your illustration, but it did not cut it for me.

 

[posthuman]

sorry i don't have time right now to read through the thread more carefully. hopefully soon.
but just kind of skimming over the last several pages since some things in life came up for me -- i feel like this thread would be a lot more fruitful if we stick to talking about Jesus and leave off trying to find fault with Robert.

"why bite & devour each other?"

Paul said something like that. (Galatians 5:15)

i don't think Robert came here to be anyone's enemy, right? but as our brother.

 

[Roberth]

...i don't think Robert came here to be anyone's enemy, right? but as our brother.

Yes, but I've learned if you preach the gospel you'll make some enemies....

 

[Roberth]

Originally Posted by onlinebuddy

....You claim to know the Gospel without error....

No, I clearly said I was't infallible. None of us are....

 

[Roberth]

Q. How does man try to add to God's works? Please give examples.

By believing that salvation is partly of Christ and partly of works...

Example: Acts 15:1-11

 

[Roberth]

.... there is no difference between iniquity and transgression.

No, you are wrong. The best example is found in Romans 5:12-14

 

[Roberth]

Because we are born without God's Spirit

Bible verse please

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

 

[Roberth]

we therefore automatically sin.

Untrue. Every human being (unlike animals) is born with a conscience. We sin when we violate that conscience.

Romans 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Gentiles that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one."
13 "Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit"; "The poison of asps is under their lips";
14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness."
15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known."
18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[Roberth]

Christ was born as we are "born again".




Bible verse please

"Then Jesus, being filled with the Holy Spirit" Luke 4:1

If Jesus as the son of man had not been born of the Spirit He would have sinned, like all of us.

 

[Roberth]

... he (Jesus) had the unfallen nature of Adam (before Adam sinned), and the earthly fleshly human nature from Eve. That's how he is 100% God and 100% human.

Appreciate your illustration, but it did not cut it for me.

Yes, well that's nice, but Jesus didn't come to save the sinless Adam before he fell, but rather the fallen Adam, indwelt with iniquity.

Heb 2:Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh (Greek: sarx) and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham.
17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

 

[Roberth]

So, let me get this straight: many of you believe that if the self-existing Son of God was united to our fallen humanity, that would have made Him a sinner, right?

Let's put it another way: God is Spirit (John 4:24). That simply means God is not "flesh & blood". He exists outside our bodily confinements.

At the incarnation the Spirit of God (His Deity) was placed in (united to) our fallen, mortal life indwelt with the sin nature. Many of you think that makes God the Son (Jesus) a sinner.

Okay, fair enough. Now some questions:

Q: When you became a believer did you still retain a sinful nature in your humanity?

A: "Yes". After conversion you still retain your sinful nature. Paul proves this in Gal 5:16-17 (NIV)

"16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other..."

So again, "yes" as a believer you still retain your Adamic life after the fall indwelt with the sin nature. Do any of you disagree with me so far?

 

[Roberth]

So, let me get this straight: many of you believe that if the self-existing Son of God was united to our fallen humanity, that would have made Him a sinner, right?

Let's put it another way: God is Spirit (John 4:24). That simply means God is not "flesh & blood". He exists outside our bodily confinements.

At the incarnation the Spirit of God (His Deity) was placed in (united to) our fallen, mortal life indwelt with the sin nature. Many of you think that makes God the Son (Jesus) a sinner.

Okay, fair enough. Now some questions:

Q: When you became a believer did you still retain a sinful nature in your humanity?

A: "Yes". After conversion you still retain your sinful nature. Paul proves this in Gal 5:16-17 (NIV)

"16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other..."

So again, "yes" as a believer you still retain your Adamic life after the fall indwelt with the sin nature. Do any of you disagree with me so far?

Paul, speaking of the believer, said: "Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?" [1 cor 3:16]

So God's Spirit (God's Deity) dwells in your fallen humanity, indwelt with sin. Does that make Him, the Holy Spirit, a sinner?

Yes, no?