why women won't be the first to talk to guys?
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Shawn, again, it's a culturally embedded thing. No one said men would consider them unlady like. In fact, the guys I grew up with in the 90's, never thought this. It's more parents. Even kids in high school, some of them have parents that are in their 50's, which is a different generation from me, not to mention all the kids who are being raised by their grandparents or even great-grandparents. Moms and grandma's are really good at implanting ideas in their children's and grandchildren head. So, before you brush this thought off, think about all these generations that have an influence on people.
No you are quite right. The parents and elders do have a large influence on the children and its for that reason that the gender roles have been changing this time around. 1950's feminists have abandoned their motherly roles in favor of independence from 'evil men', which now has lead the 3rd wave feminists to write wonderful things like #killallmen.
So if you want to talk about implanting good idea's into children's heads.. well I guess they succeeded. Now we have a society that kills innocent children via abortion and tons of single men and women who can't find love because men want gentle spirited submissive women and women don't want anything to do with the word submissive. The gender divide has pretty much destroyed relationships and families which correlates to the massive family disorders children grow up in now days.
So if you want to talk about implanting good idea's into children's heads.. well I guess they succeeded. Now we have a society that kills innocent children via abortion and tons of single men and women who can't find love because men want gentle spirited submissive women and women don't want anything to do with the word submissive. The gender divide has pretty much destroyed relationships and families which correlates to the massive family disorders children grow up in now days.
Hi guys,
Culturally speaking here in Ireland where I live it was literally put into our subconscious from the age of about 7 that we were to be the pretty perfect sweet feminine girls. we were taught to be coy when around boys and not to be overly flirtatious We played mommies and daddies the little girl always pushed the stroller with her dolly and my sister then would play daddy who would go to work.I was a child in the 70's and a teenager in the 80's. My mother INSISTED that you NEVER ask a boy out that he was always to pursue you. I was taught how to flirt to give the man the COME HITHER look lol but if i asked a man out it was seriously frowned on by our society. I found this rule extremely frustrating at times as young men would gaze my way and would never come to talk to me. For example I found out years later that a man who had gazed at me really really liked me but he was way to shy to approach me. I smiled at him gave me the "your adorable" look and catch his eyes for a few seconds let it go and look back and if he looked at you you hoped he liked you back and then you had to do the waiting game. It was not fun for me at all. I did have dates when men that I liked asked me out and it was fun. I also think that men (and some do) need to pick up on her signals and just do it. Its really NOT about feminism its about how you were brought up to react to these social cues. Im now 47 single due to very ill health not for the fact that men didn't like me. but for me there was this feeling that yes i wanted to be loved protected and provided for. but god had other plans for me. for me it feels WRONG to chase a man. Now having said all of that if you just want to talk to a few girls in church bring a male buddy with you and say HEY CAN WE GENTLEMAN JOIN YOU? i guarantee most women would find that fun cause for the most part woman love male company because you know that we are talking about the single men in church and getting you know you all. Just take a breath take a buddy and jump in to the proverbial pool.. YAY..
go you can do it!!!!
ps yes i know my grammar is not great but you grammar Nazis
give a girl a break lol lol lol love settled
Culturally speaking here in Ireland where I live it was literally put into our subconscious from the age of about 7 that we were to be the pretty perfect sweet feminine girls. we were taught to be coy when around boys and not to be overly flirtatious We played mommies and daddies the little girl always pushed the stroller with her dolly and my sister then would play daddy who would go to work.I was a child in the 70's and a teenager in the 80's. My mother INSISTED that you NEVER ask a boy out that he was always to pursue you. I was taught how to flirt to give the man the COME HITHER look lol but if i asked a man out it was seriously frowned on by our society. I found this rule extremely frustrating at times as young men would gaze my way and would never come to talk to me. For example I found out years later that a man who had gazed at me really really liked me but he was way to shy to approach me. I smiled at him gave me the "your adorable" look and catch his eyes for a few seconds let it go and look back and if he looked at you you hoped he liked you back and then you had to do the waiting game. It was not fun for me at all. I did have dates when men that I liked asked me out and it was fun. I also think that men (and some do) need to pick up on her signals and just do it. Its really NOT about feminism its about how you were brought up to react to these social cues. Im now 47 single due to very ill health not for the fact that men didn't like me. but for me there was this feeling that yes i wanted to be loved protected and provided for. but god had other plans for me. for me it feels WRONG to chase a man. Now having said all of that if you just want to talk to a few girls in church bring a male buddy with you and say HEY CAN WE GENTLEMAN JOIN YOU? i guarantee most women would find that fun cause for the most part woman love male company because you know that we are talking about the single men in church and getting you know you all. Just take a breath take a buddy and jump in to the proverbial pool.. YAY..
go you can do it!!!!
ps yes i know my grammar is not great but you grammar Nazis
give a girl a break lol lol lol love settled
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Okay...I'm going to try and address this point by point.
I think it's not terribly useful to talk about "women" as if we are one being with one mind and one way of doing things. There are SOME women that want the "benefits" of feminism without the "harder" aspects of equality. That is not all women....it's not even MOST women.
Additionally, it's illogical to imply that there is ONE reason why a group of diverse women might not approach men. (It's particularly illogical given the multitude of answers offering SEVERAL reasons). One woman might not approach men because she's been abused by men and is scared of them. Another might not approach men because her attempts at conversation have been misconstrued as "romantic interest," and she's tired of playing that game. Another might not because she thinks it's the man's job to approach. Another might not because she's involved with someone and doesn't want her approach to be misinterpreted. Yet another might not because she's shy and lacks confidence. Another might hear the voice of her mother calling her a "brazen hussy" for approaching men instead of waiting for their approach. There are lots and lots of reasons.
Furthermore, I find it interesting that "protector" and "provider" are suitably vague when referencing male duties (protect from what? provide what?), but making sandwiches and cleaning houses seem rather specific in regard to female duties that modern women resist. This generalization allows for no nuances or particulars. Women are simply painted as devious harpies waiting to spring if they don't get their way.
Finally, why is being picky so awful for a woman, but not for a man? Men want women to do the feminine things for them, AND they are picky about who they want to do it. Men (apparently) want sandwiches and a clean house, but they're not imagining Rosie O'Donnell serving these savories or vacuuming their carpets. Men aren't walking around saying, "I want a wife so I can have a woman to do all these feminine things for me AND I DON'T CARE WHO IT IS." Men are just as picky as women are. So, why is being so particular okay for men, but not for women?
I think it's not terribly useful to talk about "women" as if we are one being with one mind and one way of doing things. There are SOME women that want the "benefits" of feminism without the "harder" aspects of equality. That is not all women....it's not even MOST women.
Additionally, it's illogical to imply that there is ONE reason why a group of diverse women might not approach men. (It's particularly illogical given the multitude of answers offering SEVERAL reasons). One woman might not approach men because she's been abused by men and is scared of them. Another might not approach men because her attempts at conversation have been misconstrued as "romantic interest," and she's tired of playing that game. Another might not because she thinks it's the man's job to approach. Another might not because she's involved with someone and doesn't want her approach to be misinterpreted. Yet another might not because she's shy and lacks confidence. Another might hear the voice of her mother calling her a "brazen hussy" for approaching men instead of waiting for their approach. There are lots and lots of reasons.
Furthermore, I find it interesting that "protector" and "provider" are suitably vague when referencing male duties (protect from what? provide what?), but making sandwiches and cleaning houses seem rather specific in regard to female duties that modern women resist. This generalization allows for no nuances or particulars. Women are simply painted as devious harpies waiting to spring if they don't get their way.
Finally, why is being picky so awful for a woman, but not for a man? Men want women to do the feminine things for them, AND they are picky about who they want to do it. Men (apparently) want sandwiches and a clean house, but they're not imagining Rosie O'Donnell serving these savories or vacuuming their carpets. Men aren't walking around saying, "I want a wife so I can have a woman to do all these feminine things for me AND I DON'T CARE WHO IT IS." Men are just as picky as women are. So, why is being so particular okay for men, but not for women?
I find it interesting that you would blame the lack of marriage essentially on women. Women are not longer gentle spirited and submissive, so men cannot find wives.
Of course, clearly men don't want "gentle spirited and submissive" when it comes to illicit sexual relations. (Look at that Duggard fellow...he had gentle and submissive and it wasn't good enough for him). If there are all these abortions happening, then men must be sleeping with SOMEONE. And if there are no gentle-spirited submissive women around, they must be sleeping with the wild ones. So apparently men have decided that the ungentle and non-submissive women are great to use for their own pleasure, but they can't be bothered to marry them or raise the children that result from these affairs.
So is it that women are to blame or are men giving mixed signals about what they actually want.
Or is it possible that both MEN and WOMEN are fallen creatures and are both subject to sin and its consequences?
C
Social norms. Especially in the church, there's the lingering mentality that the guy should make the first move. I personally lean toward it because if he doesn't have the nerve to make the first move, am I really interested? Plus I don't want to end up in a relationship where I have to initiate everything. Not being the first to initiate contact doesn't mean the other person won't hold up their end of the deal, but it can sometimes be an indicator.
M
I get very nervous around guys...especially if they are around my age. It's not that I necessarily like them or think they are cute. Sometimes guys can be really rude or unattractive and I would still get nervous. I don't know why. LOL
So that's why I don't approach them first. If they approach me, I feel more comfortable.
So that's why I don't approach them first. If they approach me, I feel more comfortable.
M
Not all women are like this. I hate feminism and wouldn't mind being a stay at home wife/mother. I would love to homeschool my kids and keep the house cleaned and the dinner ready for when the hubby comes home. I don't see that as beneath me. I see it as a real job. Sure, it doesn't pay but it might save on having to send the kids to school, only having one car instead of two and cooking at home instead of eating out because some business women come home too tired to cook/clean.
And I agree with your last paragraph for sure. If a guy wants a girl, he needs to go and get her himself.
And I agree with your last paragraph for sure. If a guy wants a girl, he needs to go and get her himself.
When I was in college there was a group of us that all ran around together. Over time, some of the girls became interested in dating some of the guys. However, this was the early 1990s and some were taught that "nice girls don't ask men out," and others were more shy and introverted.
So here's what the girls did. Whenever our group went out for dinner or to a movie, we'd finagle it so that GirlX who liked BoyA would get to sit next to him. It wasn't awkward or forced...just the gentle maneuvering of interested women and their amenable, matchmaking friends.
The moral of the story is: She may not be overtly approaching you, but if she's interested, she'll figure out a way to be closer to you.
The larger moral of the story: Barring very rare circumstances involving very shy people, if a person is romantically interested in another person, they're going to figure out a way of being around that person more and scoping out the territory.
So here's what the girls did. Whenever our group went out for dinner or to a movie, we'd finagle it so that GirlX who liked BoyA would get to sit next to him. It wasn't awkward or forced...just the gentle maneuvering of interested women and their amenable, matchmaking friends.
The moral of the story is: She may not be overtly approaching you, but if she's interested, she'll figure out a way to be closer to you.
The larger moral of the story: Barring very rare circumstances involving very shy people, if a person is romantically interested in another person, they're going to figure out a way of being around that person more and scoping out the territory.
In my experience it seems like 3/4 of the time I'm the one approached rather than vice versa. It was more often in late high school and college, but it also tended to be girls of questionable character so........ not sure what to take from that. I think it mostly just has to do with people being very outgoing or shy. Big guess here, but I'll assume women in Christian circles are generally more modest in personality which leads to less women initiating. It's not a bad or good thing, just the way it is.
And btw I'm NOT saying any woman who initiates is sketchy, that's just been the trend for me personally. But it's mostly my fault because I used to hang around those types of people, lol.
And btw I'm NOT saying any woman who initiates is sketchy, that's just been the trend for me personally. But it's mostly my fault because I used to hang around those types of people, lol.
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I don't really know what "more modest in personality" even means. But if it means that Christian women are somehow less extroverted than the larger society, I don't think that's true.
Most people sort out the "hidden rules" of groups rather quickly. So, a socially savvy woman is going to figure out that the vast majority of conservative Christian groups would look askance at a woman who initiates with single men. If she values her place in the group, she'll likely adjust her behavior accordingly and NOT initiate, or engage in more covert operations (initiating without looking like she's initiating).
Having been involved in several different Christian groups, I can say that the groups who care about these behaviors (in terms of drawing "conclusions" about them) are the groups that expect men and women to adhere to VERY traditional roles regarding dating. And the reverse is true...if a group expects men and women to fulfill very traditional roles, they are not going to approve of people who "break rank" in these areas.
Most people sort out the "hidden rules" of groups rather quickly. So, a socially savvy woman is going to figure out that the vast majority of conservative Christian groups would look askance at a woman who initiates with single men. If she values her place in the group, she'll likely adjust her behavior accordingly and NOT initiate, or engage in more covert operations (initiating without looking like she's initiating).
Having been involved in several different Christian groups, I can say that the groups who care about these behaviors (in terms of drawing "conclusions" about them) are the groups that expect men and women to adhere to VERY traditional roles regarding dating. And the reverse is true...if a group expects men and women to fulfill very traditional roles, they are not going to approve of people who "break rank" in these areas.
It's so funny how men are trying to tell women how to be and how women are trying to tell men how to be. How about seeing what God wants us to be? Guys, if you like a girl, tell her. Girls, if you like a guy, tell him. Where's the trust in the Lord if all y'all are going to do is play the "come here" flirtatious look. Whatever happened to being straight up honest, rather than honest? Did Jesus ever play mind games? Why do we? This is why I kinda am through with the whole dating thing. It's just too much nonsense.
K
Quote "On one hand, they will tell you to be the man, protector, provider, on the other, should you ever dare them to be submissive, make a sandwich, or clean the house, their fury will come down on you like a lightning bolt."
Im married and personally we do not do the gender role thing,period. Im a stay at home wife but if my husband sees me busy at something and the laundry needs to be done,he does it. If I cook the meal he cleans up and vise versa.Nothing Ive asked of him just something he does. We have a large light in the kitchen that wasn't working. We changed the tube and it still wasnt working.Then I realized the switch was broken.We bought a new switch which I replaced,the whole thing.My husband was surprised.He said women he'd dated would be afraid to break a nail. So we dont do the gender junk.It brings arguments and Ive never seen it work out.Do what needs doing is our motto.
As far as submissiveness there has been a lot of abuse in the church because of the misuse of this one word. Ive sung in churches that wouldn't allow women to wear makeup,another wouldn't allow women to wear heels,the reason is too disgusting to tell you. Women in my family have been abused emotionally all because of the little word "submissive". I swore I would never get married because I saw so much abuse of women. Im married today because my husband and I put each other first. No one tells the other to submit,or you should do this or that. We put the other persons happiness first. He wants to know what I think and he trusts my judgment and advice as I do his.We make decisions together.
Quote "Then there is the question to ponder about the women themselves. On one hand they want a man to do all the manly things for them, but on the other, their very picky about who they want to do it for them. It cannot just be any man, it has to be the man they want"
Everyone is attracted to someone for different reasons. Again,with all the abuse and divorce and cheating that goes on you better believe I was picky about who I chose.I chose him for many reasons but ... he was a gentleman,still is, he was confident in being a man, he didnt have to be loud,pushy or brag on himself to prove he was a man. He has a gentle spirit and a huge heart.Always willing to help in any way he can. He treated me like a lady and with respect. I think every woman would appreciate that in a man.I dont think women are too picky at all. In this day in age its best to take your time. Women are very vulnerable today. Its not like our grandparents day when they lived in a town their whole life and went to school with the girl they eventually married. Its dangerous out there. Nothing wrong with taking your time.
Im married and personally we do not do the gender role thing,period. Im a stay at home wife but if my husband sees me busy at something and the laundry needs to be done,he does it. If I cook the meal he cleans up and vise versa.Nothing Ive asked of him just something he does. We have a large light in the kitchen that wasn't working. We changed the tube and it still wasnt working.Then I realized the switch was broken.We bought a new switch which I replaced,the whole thing.My husband was surprised.He said women he'd dated would be afraid to break a nail. So we dont do the gender junk.It brings arguments and Ive never seen it work out.Do what needs doing is our motto.
As far as submissiveness there has been a lot of abuse in the church because of the misuse of this one word. Ive sung in churches that wouldn't allow women to wear makeup,another wouldn't allow women to wear heels,the reason is too disgusting to tell you. Women in my family have been abused emotionally all because of the little word "submissive". I swore I would never get married because I saw so much abuse of women. Im married today because my husband and I put each other first. No one tells the other to submit,or you should do this or that. We put the other persons happiness first. He wants to know what I think and he trusts my judgment and advice as I do his.We make decisions together.
Quote "Then there is the question to ponder about the women themselves. On one hand they want a man to do all the manly things for them, but on the other, their very picky about who they want to do it for them. It cannot just be any man, it has to be the man they want"
Everyone is attracted to someone for different reasons. Again,with all the abuse and divorce and cheating that goes on you better believe I was picky about who I chose.I chose him for many reasons but ... he was a gentleman,still is, he was confident in being a man, he didnt have to be loud,pushy or brag on himself to prove he was a man. He has a gentle spirit and a huge heart.Always willing to help in any way he can. He treated me like a lady and with respect. I think every woman would appreciate that in a man.I dont think women are too picky at all. In this day in age its best to take your time. Women are very vulnerable today. Its not like our grandparents day when they lived in a town their whole life and went to school with the girl they eventually married. Its dangerous out there. Nothing wrong with taking your time.
Well I would again stress the caveat, "In my experience." In my limited, 22 year old, not-even-a-part-of-society-yet experience and observations, Christian women generally express less outgoing behaviors and are much less likely to initiate a relationship than non-Christian women. Not that they themselves are less outgoing, but that this personality does not seem to be expressed as often or to the same degree as others.
Your explanation about environmental factors raises a good point about why this could be the case, but respectfully it does not change my viewpoint.
Your explanation about environmental factors raises a good point about why this could be the case, but respectfully it does not change my viewpoint.