I want to understand the Catholic faith so....

KenAllan · Oct 23, 2015

I find it appalling that a Catholic will go so far as to say a person must hate him if they bring the Truth to them from the Scriptures.

Its a ploy by the Catholics to make people feel guilty for bringing them the Truth in the Scriptures that proves what they believe is a lie instead.

You need to repent zzz98 and accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior before its too late.

Even God in Matthew chapter 7 has told us there are many people who think they are a True Christian but really have never accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior. I totally believe this verse is talking about the Catholic Church.

Matthew 7:21-23
[SUP]21 [/SUP] " Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] " Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
[SUP]23 [/SUP] "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

I do believe this passage is talking about the Catholic Church.

crossnote · Oct 23, 2015

fordman said:

I say no, This prayer is unbiblical, and a tradition of man, lower case t. Nowhere in the Holy Scriptures does it contain this prayer or even imply it, and this prayer was totally unheard of by Protestantism's own reformers in the 16th century. It’s a good prayer but it’s unbiblical. It is ironic though, that most modern churches will say the "Sinner’s Prayer" in their churches (which is unbiblical), yet refrain from saying the "Lord’s Prayer" or the "Our Father" which IS Biblical and was commanded of us to pray from the very lips of our Lord and Savior. When’s the last time you recited the Lord’s Prayer in your current church? Did not Christ command you to pray to his Father in this manner?
Read Matt 6:9-13 again.

And then how about "The Altar Call." Unbiblical. Nowhere in the Holy Scriptures does it describe or speak of an "Altar Call." It is a misnomer to call this event an "Altar call," for ironically most modern churches, (in contrast to every Christian Church in the first 1500+ years of Christianity), do not even have an "altar" in their churches. It’s a good tradition of man, but it’s unbiblical, (lower case t). This modern idea was unheard of by Protestantism's own reformers who actually had altars in their churches. This is an unbiblical tradition of the modern Christian man and totally unheard of in historic Christianity to include the Apostles and the NT Church.
　

The common practice among most every modern Christian service to serve shots of "grape juice" for communion rather than wine as the Bible speaks of.
This practice is unbiblical and even anti-biblical. Where did this come from? Does not the Holy Bible and Our Lord Himself tell us that wine is to be used? Again even the first Protestants used wine. In Cana, did Christ make "grape juice" for his first miracle or wine? Was the Holy Grail at the Last Supper full of juice, or water as the Mormons use? This is absurd, blatantly unbiblical and vehemently anti-biblical. It is an apostate tradition of the modern man and totally unheard of in historic Christianity to include the Protestant reformers and the NT Church. It violates a direct commandment of God Incarnate.
"And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He said, "Take this and share it among yourselves; 18for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes." 19And when He had taken some bread and given thanks, He broke it and gave it to them, saying, "This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me." 20And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood." Luke 22:17-20
　

"Bowing your heads and closing your eyes when you pray" as you have been taught since childhood. Not a bad tradition, but again unbiblical. Quite similar to how we Catholics make the "Sign of the Cross" to profess their Baptism (ref: Matt 28:19-20) when we pray to and worship the Blessed Trinity. Both good practices, yet both explicitly unbiblical traditions of men (lower case t’s). Not all "traditions of man" are bad. But all are unbiblical. And it is difficult to call oneself a "Bible Only" Christian in the strictest sense when one adheres to and practices so many unbiblical behaviors/beliefs. Again, a more appropriate name should be "Bible Believing" Christian. But even that assumes one acknowledges what is and what is not in the Holy Bible.

This is to just a partial list of unbiblical doctrines and practices embraced by the modern Christian beleivers of the Sola Scriptura doctrine. I can list many more if you'd like. If you claim to be a "Bible Only Christian and adhere to Sola Scriptura or the Bible only idea, then to embrace any of the above ideas, ANY of them is to go against the "Bible Only" principle. So you need to ask yourself, either I'm "Bible Only" or I'm not. What is it??
　

Pax Christi
　
　
　
　

　

There's a difference between a practice being forbidden in Scripture and a practice not mentioned nor it being forbidden in principle. The Sinner's Prayer and altar call, for example, are not forbidden nor are their principles whereas having other mediators between God and man other than Jesus Christ is.

1 Timothy 2:5 KJVS
[5] For there is one God, and ONE mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Kefa54 · Oct 23, 2015

by Tony Miano and Matt Slick
Is the sinner's prayer Biblical? Yes and no. It is Biblical for a sinner to pray to Jesus to forgive him of his sins. It is not biblical to say someone is saved "because of reciting the Sinner's Prayer." It is Biblical to confess one's sins and ask for forgiveness and put trust, hope, and faith in Christ and His sacrifice on the cross. But, again, it is not Biblical to give someone assurance of salvation based on reciting a prayer--on simply saying the words. Salvation is the work of God and the manifestation of that work is sometimes seen in people publicly confessing--even publicly praying to receive Christ as Savior.
So, we want to be clear that elements of the sinners prayer are Biblical. However, we also want to be very clear that a person is not saved "because he prayed a prayer." Faith, assurance, and hope should never be placed in the prayer.

Blain · Oct 23, 2015

crossnote said:

Crossnote, you should know me well enough by now to know that I am a Christian first before anything else. My passion and my burning love and desire for God is far to strong and too deep for me to be sucked into another kind of faith, how many times have I poured out my deep and intimate love and desire for God on here? How many times has that fire been seen in these forums? You all have seen my heart the deepest depths of it because I always speak my heart and it is almost always fueled by my deep love for God, hell itself is not strong enough to even scratch the love and bond between God and I let alone the catholic faith

Blain · Oct 23, 2015

I am not unaware about what is said about the Catholics I am not unaware how cc is not a place that has much good to say about the Catholics I know everyone has their own opinions about them, But God has been my teacher ever since the beginning of my faith and one of the things he taught me is to have blind faith in him but do not blindly believe what you hear or have been told.

I recall this scripture Proverbs 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings

popeye · Oct 23, 2015

fordman said:

Really? thats all you got? Since utah had no answer, maybe you'd like to tak a crack at it.

Here, I'll post it for ya......

I challenge you and those who accuse the Catholic Church of being a false Church to name only 3 historically verifiable people in each century who believe as you believe and practiced your faith as they practice it. If you folks are correct then there must have been 'true Christians' in each century who believed and practiced as you do. This challenge leaves us with 3 possibilities: (1) There were Christians who believed and practiced as you do (Name 3 per century) (2) Those real Christians through the centuries were Catholics. (3) Or Christ lied. Which is it? None of us thinks Christ lied now right? We Catholics can list countless people in all centuries who attended Mass, believed in the 'Real Presence', Perpetual Virginity of Mary, etc. Now you and other folks on this forum that challengr the Catholic faith should be able to find 3 people who believed as they did, don't you think?

Once again I repeat, if you cannot identify these people then I submit they didn't exist. There is a historical record of the pagans, the heretics, the Mohammedans, etc. The only people for whom there is no historical record is this remnant of true Christians who believed and practiced like those of you doing the challenging. True Christians would not be much of a 'light to the world' if nobody even knew they existed. I have yet to hear anyone other than a Catholics fully address the questions above.

Take your time Bub

Pax Christi

If it is your catholic ancients you are invoking then you need to get the whole picture of the demon influence of said leaders.

Their past is horrific as is the "church"(as you Catholics like to pull on the QuickDraw)

atwhatcost · Oct 23, 2015

KenAllan said:

I fell in love with God because he was in love with me. Every time I've ever heard of a story where someone came to the Lord it had everything to do with love -- a loving gospel (including hell, as to not tell the punishment is to not explain the love fully) given in a loving way to someone thirsty and hungry for it.

So, frankly, I find it appalling that, to Catholics only, the gospel isn't given in love. It's given in hate, as demonstrated on this thread often enough. And you're response, after the man has left? Apparently your gospel is holier than thou?

I guess we all have different understandings of the definition of appalling. And, obviously different takes on what the will of the Father is.

Exactly why are Catholics only hated?
1. It is possible to be Catholic AND saved. (Particularly so, since the RCC doesn't teach doctrine.)
2. It is also possible to be Catholic and not saved. And because of that, aren't we to give the Gospel of the Love of God instead the the gospel of the hate of Catholics?

Why is it a thing to scorn Catholics only? (well, them and "legalists, but that's another topic.

)

The one thing I wish my family would get is faith isn't in the Church; it's in Christ. And yet, if anything, on this site they'd learn hate is through the visible church.

atwhatcost · Oct 23, 2015

Blain said:

I say the following as a writer, no we haven't seen your deepest depths. Deep depths, but not the deepest. The deepest depths can't be put into words. I'm not even sure a good groan or a roaring Alleluia can explain it.

atwhatcost · Oct 23, 2015

popeye said:

I don't know if you're protestant or Anabaptist, but you might not boast so loudly if you understood the Church -- any church, including the one God calls "church" -- is innocent of those same influences.

fordman · Oct 23, 2015

Utah said:

Irrelevent? Lol! I think not! It is the likes of you and others like Atwhatcost,Gr8grace,Kenallan, Magenenta, ect. with the need to prove that the Catholic Church is an apostate Church, and I'm just calling you in it. Little did I know that this...... (How did you say it? "contrived" and "irrelevant") simple task would be too diffilcult for you. Sheesh.... {rolling eyes} As promised, I will address the belief of the Real Presence on the Holy Eucharist, it is actually one of the easiest Catholic beleifs to explain. You may not agree or understand the explaination I give you, but I will give it.

Now in the mean time, let me try and simplify the question/task I put forth to you. (by all means, the rest of you can join in) Now you do agree in the Gospel of Matthew, Christ promises to be with His Church all days even to the end of the world. Do you not agree? Now if that is true then there must have existed since the time of Christ - true Christians who believed correctly and practiced their faith correctly. Yes or no? Do you also doubt Christ would promise to be with apostates? Now since the time of Christ, we Catholics can name many people who believe as we believe and practiced their faith as we practice it, even to this day.

Ever since I joined this forum, you and others have accused the Catholic Church of being a false church, have you not? Now this is were it seems to get difficult for you all, so pay close attention. All I am asking is for you to name only three verifiable people from the time of Christ who beleive as you beleive, and practice your faith as you practice it today. i.e. Bible alone sufficient for as sole rule of faith, Altar Calls, O.S.A.S., Rapture, grape juice for comminion, ect. It is our beleif that this leaves us with only three options. One, there were Christians who believed and practiced like you do.(remember, all you have to do is is name three per century, that shouldn't be so hard for ya, should it?) Or two, Those real Christians through the centuries were Catholics. Or lastly, Christ lied. Which is it?
　

None of us Catholics beleived Christ lied. No... on the contrary, The Catholic Church can list countless people in all centuries who attended Mass, believed in the 'Real Presence', etc. (Early Church Fathers) Now surly if we can do that, you and your other accusers should be able to find three people in every century that beleive and practiced their faith the same as you do today. Should be pretty simple task, dont you think? Now I submit, if you cant, they didnt exist! If you do some simple reserch, you will find there is a historical record of the pagans, the heretics, the Mohammedans, etc. right? If we can find historical records of them, so you should also find historical records of what you beleive to be "True Christians that beleived and practiced (existed) the same as you do today, right? The way I see it, true Christians would not be much of a 'light to the world' if nobody even knew they existed. In closing, I don't know how much simpler I can put it to ya.
　

Lol! I think not! All you have shown me is you shooting a Cap Gun into an empty Gold Fish bowl! The sooner you complete this task, the sooner I'll address our beleif in the Real Presence! Good Luck!
　
Pax Christi
　

　

PennEd · Oct 23, 2015

fordman said:

Irrelevent? Lol! I think not! It is the likes of you and others like Atwhatcost,Gr8grace,Kenallan, Magenenta, ect. with the need to prove that the Catholic Church is an apostate Church, and I'm just calling you in it. Little did I know that this...... (How did you say it? "contrived" and "irrelevant") simple task would be too diffilcult for you. Sheesh.... {rolling eyes} As promised, I will address the belief of the Real Presence on the Holy Eucharist, it is actually one of the easiest Catholic beleifs to explain. You may not agree or understand the explaination I give you, but I will give it.

Now in the mean time, let me try and simplify the question/task I put forth to you. (by all means, the rest of you can join in) Now you do agree in the Gospel of Matthew, Christ promises to be with His Church all days even to the end of the world. Do you not agree? Now if that is true then there must have existed since the time of Christ - true Christians who believed correctly and practiced their faith correctly. Yes or no? Do you also doubt Christ would promise to be with apostates? Now since the time of Christ, we Catholics can name many people who believe as we believe and practiced their faith as we practice it, even to this day.

Ever since I joined this forum, you and others have accused the Catholic Church of being a false church, have you not? Now this is were it seems to get difficult for you all, so pay close attention. All I am asking is for you to name only three verifiable people from the time of Christ who beleive as you beleive, and practice your faith as you practice it today. i.e. Bible alone sufficient for as sole rule of faith, Altar Calls, O.S.A.S., Rapture, grape juice for comminion, ect. It is our beleif that this leaves us with only three options. One, there were Christians who believed and practiced like you do.(remember, all you have to do is is name three per century, that shouldn't be so hard for ya, should it?) Or two, Those real Christians through the centuries were Catholics. Or lastly, Christ lied. Which is it?
　

None of us Catholics beleived Christ lied. No... on the contrary, The Catholic Church can list countless people in all centuries who attended Mass, believed in the 'Real Presence', etc. (Early Church Fathers) Now surly if we can do that, you and your other accusers should be able to find three people in every century that beleive and practiced their faith the same as you do today. Should be pretty simple task, dont you think? Now I submit, if you cant, they didnt exist! If you do some simple reserch, you will find there is a historical record of the pagans, the heretics, the Mohammedans, etc. right? If we can find historical records of them, so you should also find historical records of what you beleive to be "True Christians that beleived and practiced (existed) the same as you do today, right? The way I see it, true Christians would not be much of a 'light to the world' if nobody even knew they existed. In closing, I don't know how much simpler I can put it to ya.
　

Lol! I think not! All you have shown me is you shooting a Cap Gun into an empty Gold Fish bowl! The sooner you complete this task, the sooner I'll address our beleif in the Real Presence! Good Luck!
　
Pax Christi
　

　

As an ex-catholic, who went 8 yrs catholic grammar school, who's large family mostly remain catholic, I can tell you that this question of yours is so convoluted, with more strawmen than corn fields in IOWA, that it is unanswerable in the way you framed it.

I pray earnestly for those trapped in this evil religion of works,

I was taught the doctrine of purgatory in school, just to name 1 evil doctrine. The popes would tell people the more money they gave to them the less amount of time their loved ones, or they themselves upon death, would have to spend in purgatory. This is the doctrine of indulgences, and catholics will try and tell you that the vatican and it's wicked church no longer do it, but this is a lie. My family STILL BUYS mass cards. With each PURCHASED mass card a priest says a mass in that persons name to lessen their time in purgatory! This is truly the satanic temple.

atwhatcost · Oct 23, 2015

fordman said:

Irrelevent? Lol! I think not! It is the likes of you and others like Atwhatcost,Gr8grace,Kenallan, Magenenta, ect. with the need to prove that the Catholic Church is an apostate Church, and I'm just calling you in it. Little did I know that this...... (How did you say it? "contrived" and "irrelevant") simple task would be too diffilcult for you. Sheesh.... {rolling eyes} As promised, I will address the belief of the Real Presence on the Holy Eucharist, it is actually one of the easiest Catholic beleifs to explain. You may not agree or understand the explaination I give you, but I will give it.

Now in the mean time, let me try and simplify the question/task I put forth to you. (by all means, the rest of you can join in) Now you do agree in the Gospel of Matthew, Christ promises to be with His Church all days even to the end of the world. Do you not agree? Now if that is true then there must have existed since the time of Christ - true Christians who believed correctly and practiced their faith correctly. Yes or no? Do you also doubt Christ would promise to be with apostates? Now since the time of Christ, we Catholics can name many people who believe as we believe and practiced their faith as we practice it, even to this day.

Ever since I joined this forum, you and others have accused the Catholic Church of being a false church, have you not? Now this is were it seems to get difficult for you all, so pay close attention. All I am asking is for you to name only three verifiable people from the time of Christ who beleive as you beleive, and practice your faith as you practice it today. i.e. Bible alone sufficient for as sole rule of faith, Altar Calls, O.S.A.S., Rapture, grape juice for comminion, ect. It is our beleif that this leaves us with only three options. One, there were Christians who believed and practiced like you do.(remember, all you have to do is is name three per century, that shouldn't be so hard for ya, should it?) Or two, Those real Christians through the centuries were Catholics. Or lastly, Christ lied. Which is it?
　

None of us Catholics beleived Christ lied. No... on the contrary, The Catholic Church can list countless people in all centuries who attended Mass, believed in the 'Real Presence', etc. (Early Church Fathers) Now surly if we can do that, you and your other accusers should be able to find three people in every century that beleive and practiced their faith the same as you do today. Should be pretty simple task, dont you think? Now I submit, if you cant, they didnt exist! If you do some simple reserch, you will find there is a historical record of the pagans, the heretics, the Mohammedans, etc. right? If we can find historical records of them, so you should also find historical records of what you beleive to be "True Christians that beleived and practiced (existed) the same as you do today, right? The way I see it, true Christians would not be much of a 'light to the world' if nobody even knew they existed. In closing, I don't know how much simpler I can put it to ya.
　

Lol! I think not! All you have shown me is you shooting a Cap Gun into an empty Gold Fish bowl! The sooner you complete this task, the sooner I'll address our beleif in the Real Presence! Good Luck!
　
Pax Christi
　

　

The Philadelphia Eagles will win the next Super Bowl and every one after that. The Philadelphia Eagles will win the next Super Bowl and every one after that. The Philadelphia Eagles will win the next Super Bowl and every one after that. The Philadelphia Eagles will win the next Super Bowl and every one after that.

How many times do I have to say that before believing it myself and thinking everyone who disagrees is laughable? I figure if anyone can answer that question you can, since that is pretty much your defense. You are so full of nanny nanny booboo you don't listen.

You've got no peace in Christ. You believe a distorted history proves your belief, but, hey? Guess what. I know that history too and can tell you where it went wrong, more than once, and then veered off onto wronger and wronger until we have people like you who think if they repeat something long enough it will suddenly become true.

Simple as this, Church does NOT save.

notuptome · Oct 23, 2015

Blain said:

Nice try but this matter is about as open and obvious as they come.

All the pomp rituals rites and superstitions of Rome are an attempt to make her look spiritual.

With Rome no matter what you do or how much you do you can never have assurance of your eternal salvation.

Romanism is about as Christian as Islam or Judaism.

Pr 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Pr 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

I read Proverbs daily.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

PennEd · Oct 23, 2015

PoetMary said:

Mary, I truly feel your pain and heart, but it honestly begs the question. If you believe that Jesus sacrificial death for YOUR sins is the ONLY thing that can save you, with NOTHING added to that, WHY are you still a catholic?

YOU know the doctrines they teach that conflict with the Gospel that you said you believed. So why do you remain a member of a church that preaches contrary to that belief?

I say this out of sincere love, and if you are in Christ by believing in Him ALONE for salvation, then you are indeed my sister in Jesus and for that I love you.

Goodness11 · Oct 23, 2015

Wow!! Took me an hour to read this thread. I have learned more stuff about Catholics than I have ever cared to! Just seems so simple to me and incredibly clear...did Jesus use a Rosemary? Nope. Did Jesus go to a confessional? Nope. He prayed to God directly finding a quiet place to pray. Did Jesus follow around a 'pope' like figure? Nope. He told everyone to be disciples:

So fordman; WE meaning us Christians are the history. All people have to do is name three distant relatives that are Christian. Isn't that obvious? All the pastors, practically ranging from Paul and Peter...their legacy throughout the centuries. It makes so much sense; these people weren't made FAMOUS icons because we are taught to be humble NOT referred greater than Jesus. There will be no statues of us, or necklace charms; because we honestly do everything for God. We are servants to Him and thus servants are not higher than the Lord. Isn't that completely obvious?? It is to me. Plus your threat is pretty conceded and pompous. Just because you have a Wall of Fame of saints doesn't mean it's right. Unless you yourself want to be dubbed a saint...maybe you have an alternate motive?

eternally-gratefull · Oct 23, 2015

maxwel said:

LOL.

This is a PROTESTANT FORUM.
(Take a closer look at all the site policies.)
It is EXPECTED for a PROTESTANT on a PROTESTANT FORUM to have an ESTABLISHED POSITION of PROTESTANTISM!

This accusation of yours is just absurd.
It's beyond absurd.

How can YOU come on a PROTESTANT FORUM and make accusations against Protestants for BEING PROTESTANTS!

WHAT ON EARTH IS WRONG WITH YOU??????

This is a protestant forum:
1. A Protestant on a Protestant forum should be expected to have Protestant positions.
2. A protestant on a protestant forum isn't required to be "curious' about the Roman Catholic Church.

You are actually on a Protestant forum, telling Protestants they shouldn't have Protestant positions!!!!

This could not be more absurd.

Absurdity has just reached the absolute pinnacle.

For the life of me, I can't understand WHY you come here.

I'm sure there are lots of Catholic forums where you'd fit in, and be much happier.
Why do you come to a Protestant forum, when you clearly disagree with our beliefs????

What would provoke you to come here and argue with us?

Hmmm... what could someone's intentions be for going to a place of opposite beliefs, and then starting arguments?

Hmmm.

You just bored and like to go start a fight somewhere?

That IS what you do here... start fights.

Is that it?
You're just bored, and enjoy fighting, so you come to a Protestant forum to argue and irritate people?

Beautiful.

Just beautiful, lol.

Protestant forum?

I pray not. I am not protesting anything, to protest something I have to acknowledge it is a something. I can not protest the roman church when I do not even consider it to be a church.

(just had to say that, I hate the term protestant..) Otherwise, I agree with all you said..lol

crossnote · Oct 23, 2015

atwhatcost said:

They do teach doctrine...

From the Counsel of Trent (still binding) notice all the anathemas (curses) at the end of each section...and this is only the article of Justification.

ON JUSTIFICATION
CANONS

CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema. CANON II.-If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.
CANON III.-If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.
CANON IV.-If any one saith, that man's free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema.
CANON V.-If any one saith, that, since Adam's sin, the free will of man is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing with only a name, yea a name without a reality, a figment, in fine, introduced into the Church by Satan; let him be anathema.
CANON VI.-If any one saith, that it is not in man's power to make his ways evil, but that the works that are evil God worketh as well as those that are good, not permissively only, but properly, and of Himself, in such wise that the treason of Judas is no less His own proper work than the vocation of Paul; let him be anathema.
CANON VII.-If any one saith, that all works done before Justification, in whatsoever way they be done, are truly sins, or merit the hatred of God; or that the more earnestly one strives to dispose himself for grace, the more grievously he sins: let him be anathema.
CANON VIII.-If any one saith, that the fear of hell,-whereby, by grieving for our sins, we flee unto the mercy of God, or refrain from sinning,-is a sin, or makes sinners worse; let him be anathema. CANON IX.-If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.
CANON X.-If any one saith, that men are just without the justice of Christ, whereby He merited for us to be justified; or that it is by that justice itself that they are formally just; let him be anathema.
CANON XI.-If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him be anathema.
CANON XII.-If any one saith, that justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ's sake; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified; let him be anathema.
CANON XIII.-If any one saith, that it is necessary for every one, for the obtaining the remission of sins, that he believe for certain, and without any wavering arising from his own infirmity and disposition, that his sins are forgiven him; let him be anathema.
CANON XIV.-If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema.
CANON XV.-If any one saith, that a man, who is born again and justified, is bound of faith to believe that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; let him be anathema.
CANON XVI.-If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema.
CANON XVII.-If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema.
CANON XVIII.-If any one saith, that the commandments of God are, even for one that is justified and constituted in grace, impossible to keep; let him be anathema.
CANON XIX.-If any one saith, that nothing besides faith is commanded in the Gospel; that other things are indifferent, neither commanded nor prohibited, but free; or, that the ten commandments nowise appertain to Christians; let him be anathema.
CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema.
CANON XXI.-If any one saith, that Christ Jesus was given of God to men, as a redeemer in whom to trust, and not also as a legislator whom to obey; let him be anathema.
CANON XXII.-If any one saith, that the justified, either is able to persevere, without the special help of God, in the justice received; or that, with that help, he is not able; let him be anathema.
CANON XXIII.-lf any one saith, that a man once justified can sin no more, nor lose grace, and that therefore he that falls and sins was never truly justified; or, on the other hand, that he is able, during his whole life, to avoid all sins, even those that are venial,-except by a special privilege from God, as the Church holds in regard of the Blessed Virgin; let him be anathema.
CANON XXIV.-If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema.
CANON XXV.-If any one saith, that, in every good work, the just sins venially at least, or-which is more intolerable still-mortally, and consequently deserves eternal punishments; and that for this cause only he is not damned, that God does not impute those works unto damnation; let him be anathema.
CANON XXVI.-If any one saith, that the just ought not, for their good works done in God, to expect and hope for an eternal recompense from God, through His mercy and the merit of Jesus Christ, if so be that they persevere to the end in well doing and in keeping the divine commandments; let him be anathema.
CANON XXVII.-If any one saith, that there is no mortal sin but that of infidelity; or, that grace once received is not lost by any other sin, however grievous and enormous, save by that of infidelity ; let him be anathema.
CANON XXVIII.-If any one saith, that, grace being lost through sin, faith also is always lost with it; or, that the faith which remains, though it be not a lively faith, is not a true faith; or, that he, who has faith without charity, is not a Christian; let him be anathema.
CANON XXIX.-If any one saith, that he, who has fallen after baptism, is not able by the grace of God to rise again; or, that he is able indeed to recover the justice which he has lost, but by faith alone without the sacrament of Penance, contrary to what the holy Roman and universal Church-instructed by Christ and his Apostles-has hitherto professed, observed, and taugh; let him be anathema.
CANON XXX.-If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema.
CANON XXXI.-If any one saith, that the justified sins when he performs good works with a view to an eternal recompense; let him be anathema.
CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.
CANON XXXIII.-If any one saith,that,by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema.

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The sacrament of the Eucharist

Goodness11 · Oct 23, 2015

Actually fordman; I apologize for calling you 'pretty conceded and pompous.' Felt I was being rude....I should've said something more like; 'don't be conceded and pompous' because you are in our home, ChristianChat. Not the other way around.

Blain · Oct 23, 2015

notuptome said:

(Nice try but this matter is about as open and obvious as they come.)
You see that is the exact attitude that causes us to be so blind, the most common thing that causes so much trouble is that we humans think we are really seeing the truth that we are seeing what is there that it is obvious and yet we are looking through a veil only seeing the outer appearances only the first layer. This is true with the bible and when we look talk with people and yes even doctrines and life itself.

Things are almost never as they appear, if you truly believe it's so obvious then what if your wrong? What if there is so much more what if it's actually much deeper than you thought? For instance anyone can read and study the bible and can know it by heart but many times they are only seeing the first layer of the word, the word of God is like an onion or the earths crust it has many many layers and what we are so sure is the truth about what we read is not even half of it.

Magenta · Oct 23, 2015

crossnote said:

Not only that, but you cannot rightfully call yourself a Catholic if you do not accept the ex cathedra dogmas, both of which concern Mary. If one were to become Catholic today, they would have to study the catechisms in preparation for baptism. "A thoroughly comprehensive catechesis on the truths of Catholic doctrine and moral life, aided by approved catechetical texts, is to be provided during the period of the catechumenate" (U.S. Conference of Bishops, National Statutes for the Catechumenate, Nov. 11, 1986).

I want to understand the Catholic faith so....

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