Replacement/Supersessionism Theology,Why it Matters

[valiant]

rom 11: [SUP]5 [/SUP]For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

[SUP]26 [/SUP]and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
[SUP]27 [/SUP]“This is [SUP][i][/SUP]My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”

Yes all the TRUE ISRAEL will be saved whether consisting of Messiah believing Jews or Messiah believing Gentile proselytes.

Notice that it takes all the fullness of the Gentiles being gathered in for all Israel to be saved. They are an essential part of the true Israel.

But not all of natural Israel are true Israel (9.6). The whole point of Rom 9-11 is that the true Israel consists of Messiah believing Israel and Gentile proselytes who have believed in the Messiah

Jacob is Israel. Not the church. This is where replacement theology stinks.

JACOB is ISRAEL is THE CHURCH. The true church is the only true Israel approved of God on this earth. Any other position stinks to high heaven. It denies the cross and resurrection.

 

[KJV1611]

Gods promises to Israel were not salvic in nature So your question has no bearing on the topic at hand.

The topic is has the church replaced Isreal. or not..

No one was ever saved by being a child of Israel

God's promises to Israel are the same promises made to Abraham. Those promises were not made to national Israel, they were made to Abraham, Christ and all those in Christ. Am I reading Galatians 3:16 wrong?

Gal_3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

 

[valiant]

read daniel.. The 4 beasts, who will rule over Jerusalem. and until the messiah comes and destroys their rule. and takes control himself

The fourth beast was Rome. Messiah HAS come, has taken control and is in process of destroying it. He began to open the seven seals in 1st century AD.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't think so. Look at the context of Romans 11 it's talking about saved Jews and saved Gentiles. Paul considers both groups to be spiritual Israel. So all Israel both saved Jews and saved Gentiles will be saved.

correct If he was speaking of Saved Spiritual isreal. he would never speak of saved jew and save gentile. for he would say they were all saved spiritual isreal.

He separates them for a reason.

He says

1. There is still a remnant
2. Gentiles are now grafted in (as a people)
3. Gentiles will be grafted in only until their time is fulfilled
4. during this time, Israel will be blinded in part (there will always be a remnant)
5. At the fulfillment of this time, Israel will repent, Receive her true messiah (Jesus) and be saved. (the partial hardening will be lifted. and all Israel will be saved)

If God has no more plans for the nation of Israel. there is no need period of a remnant being kept. For God can just let the nation fade away into oblivion like he did all nations who have come and gone before and after her.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Can somebody please answer me this; was the ten commandment only given to Israel?

 

[james57]

The "plan B" generation of the last 2,000 years should be grateful for the "plan A" generation that did not make it. We are fortunate that God did change and we now have a chance...

What did God change? What did king David rely on to attain heaven under the old covenant? Not a law of righteousness for he said no one was righteous before God psalms 143:2
David trusted in Gods unfailing live forever and ever psalms 52:8 and that unfailing love was shown to us by Christ dying for our sins at Calvary. Plan a and plan b both hinged on Gods unfailing love

 

[KJV1611]

there is no isreal which comes from gentile bloodline, the only gentile blood would be abrahams.. through issac and jacobs, Non of the other of abrahams children were part of those promises.

Why weren't they part of those promises?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God allowed 6million Jews to perish in the second world war. Did all 6 million perish because they had rejected Christ as their saviour.
However we agree on the most important thing in this debate, for which i am grateful

they perished for the same reason millions have died by the hands of gentile nations, and the early so called church. A hatred which comes from satanic influence.

there will come a day where Satan will try to destroy them one last time, Yet God protects them, and he turns his wrath on her offspring (the church) and all hell will break loose. A time called the time of great tribulation spoken of By Jesus himself.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So in your opinion, the criteria for being a spiritual Israelite is to have the faith of Abraham and be from the Jewish bloodline.
It's like your totally ignoring verse 7 and 8. Those two verses explain verse 6. Spiritual Israel is the children of the promise... which includes me.

Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Galatians says that I am a child of the promise... I am like Isaac.
Gal_4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

I am a child of God, Brother of Adam and Noah and Abraham.

Not a spiritual jew.
Paul said there is no jew or gentile This spiritual jew thing is not of God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, but they still need to believe on Jesus. Also, I'm not against Jews. I'm against nonsense like the Hebrew Roots movement.

need to be against those apposed to the future fulfillment of Gods promises to Israel also..

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

there is no isreal which comes from gentile bloodline, the only gentile blood would be abrahams.. through issac and jacobs, Non of the other of abrahams children were part of those promises.

I wonder what the mixed multitude would have answered you that moved out of Egypt with Israel

Exodus 12:38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle

Maybe they also covered their ears and eyes the day Moses gave Israel the law...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I wonder if somebody can explain to me why the Bible distinguish between Judah and Israel?

Can someone also explain to me if Jesus told a little white lie when He said:

Northern and southern kingdoms (called Israel (northern) and Judah (southern) Northern was destroyed by Syria, Southern was taken by babylon, but partially restored until 70 AD when their full dispersion was completed due to their sin.

God promises to restore the two nations, make them one again, never to be divided again.

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

If Jesus never sinned and never lied you as "non-Israelites" are in deeeeeeeep trouble...

Jesus was sent first to the house of Isreal. who would reject him, then to the Gentiles. Even this is prophesied in the OT.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

GOD's promise was that he would become their GOD. That is salvation.

He became their god when he through the mediation of moses saved them from egypt. and sent them out to a land he promised them

Yet not all of them were saved.. so no, Promising them land to live in peace and be their god is not salvic in nature. If it was. Being a jew by birth would save them..

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

God promises to restore the two nations, make them one again, never to be divided again.

That began at Pentecost and will continue until the lord has gathered everybody. Remember, the temple has to be built before anything else.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We do not agree on this topic but you are making sense. No one is saved by being a child of Israel but we are grafted into the tree after we are saved. We can argue this until the cows come home or accept God's word

remember though the tree in romans 11 is speaking of a people being grafted in, not individual people. I as a gentile was grafted in the moment paul was sent to the gentile nations.. I am still not the natural branch, that is why I must be grafted in By God himself.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

He became their god when he through the mediation of moses saved them from egypt. and sent them out to a land he promised them

Yet not all of them were saved..so no, Promising them land to live in peace and be their god is not salvic in nature. If it was. Being a jew by birth would save them..

That just proves that not all of natural Israel is Israel.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Both Rahab and Ruth were gentiles and mothers of the messiah.

Yes, But they were not saved by being made jews were they?

remember, bloodlines in the OT days came from male not female.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God's promises to Israel are the same promises made to Abraham. Those promises were not made to national Israel, they were made to Abraham, Christ and all those in Christ. Am I reading Galatians 3:16 wrong?

Gal_3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3 is not speaking of Gods promise to abraham concerning a plot of land in the middle east. Gal 3 is concerning Gods promise to anraham concerning the fact that All the nations of the world will be blessed through your seed.

You have the promises messed up.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

remember though the tree in romans 11 is speaking of a people being grafted in, not individual people. I as a gentile was grafted in the moment paul was sent to the gentile nations.. I am still not the natural branch, that is why I must be grafted in By God himself. [/B][/COLOR]

That's your opinion, and a not very informed one. GOD only grafts in individuals through faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That just proves that not all of natural Israel is Israel.

No because jesus said Israel is our enemy concerning the gospel. but beloved because of Gods promises.. So all natural isreal (concerning the promises of Romans 11 ) is Isreal (who will one day be saved when they repent)