Sodom and Gomorrha - a review

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M

Maranatha_Yeshua

Guest
#21
#21
Ezekiel 16
49 Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
50 And they were haughty and committed abomination before Me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit.

Leviticus 18:22
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.

Not to mention, Jude points to the acts of homosexuality also. And I am sure many of your favorite Christian theologians would agree homosexuality was the abominable sin and to say it's unreasonable is to disagree with many Scholars who can actually read the original texts, theologians, Rabbis, etc etc.
 
B

Brackenzee

Banned
#22
Oct 17, 2009
325
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#22
I don't speak Hebrew, but the passage in question is translated:
" 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.
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If homosexuality is a factor at all, it is among an unspecified number of 'detestable things' that don't bear a specific mention over pride, cruelty, and lack of charity.
 
M

Maranatha_Yeshua

Guest
#23
#23
I answered that verse with a cross reference to leviticus.
 
M

Mal316

Guest
#24
#24
Homosexuality is only one of the detestable practices listed in Lev 18.

vv 24-30 of Lev 18 sum up the unlawful practices of the Egyptians and Canaanites as 'detestable.' I don't know why homosexuality is singled out. Incest, child sacrifice, and bestiality are also detestable.

Furthermore, the adjective 'detestable' is used in reference to animals that are unclean to eat. See Lev 11 vv 10-20, and vv 41 and 42.
 
M

Maranatha_Yeshua

Guest
#25
#25
Mal316 said:
Homosexuality is only one of the detestable practices listed in Lev 18.

vv 24-30 of Lev 18 sum up the unlawful practices of the Egyptians and Canaanites as 'detestable.' I don't know why homosexuality is singled out. Incest, child sacrifice, and bestiality are also detestable.

Furthermore, the adjective 'detestable' is used in reference to animals that are unclean to eat. See Lev 11 vv 10-20, and vv 41 and 42.
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That still has nothing to do with the angels going into Sodom and Gomorrah clearly they were living in horrible sin, but why did God choose to destroy them after they committed the homosexual act? That is the question, the question is not what sins they committed but, what God destroyed them for.

Traditionally and Scripturally, according to my research it is homosexuality.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#26
#26
No actually i was misleading. I always do word studies and comparrisons. I think I just should have said that Sodom and Gomorrha has a list of steps in depravity. I was just pointing out that the facts given point more towards a downward motion of depravity.I do not think mere homosexuality is presented here as we know it today. But it is there inside an array of arrogant violent disregard for anyone. The place was hoplessly lost.
 
B

Brackenzee

Banned
#27
Oct 17, 2009
325
1
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#27
Moreover, the law of Leviticus was given more than four hundred years AFTER the time of Lot and Abraham. By your interpretation, God is a colossal jerk for killing people off based on something they didn't even know was wrong.
 
K

karuna

Guest
#28
#28
Maranatha_Yeshua said:
Not to mention, Jude points to the acts of homosexuality also. And I am sure many of your favorite Christian theologians would agree homosexuality was the abominable sin and to say it's unreasonable is to disagree with many Scholars who can actually read the original texts, theologians, Rabbis, etc etc.
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It isn't immediately clear what Jude points to, as I said in the orginal post which discussed the pertinent Greek. Koine is not that hard to learn if you're willing to memorize th declensions. Furthermore, the word used there is so
common, a first year student would know it. There's no need to appeal to authority to know the most common translation is poor.

Furthermore, the point is not that homosexuality is "detestable" in the Bible. Again, I can't help but wonder how much is being read. Did god decide to destroy Sodom specifically for it or not? The best evidence people have is that it was one of many sins Sodom was known for and that it was one of the last recorded explicitly.
 
M

Maranatha_Yeshua

Guest
#29
#29
Brackenzee said:
Moreover, the law of Leviticus was given more than four hundred years AFTER the time of Lot and Abraham. By your interpretation, God is a colossal jerk for killing people off based on something they didn't even know was wrong.
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That is your personal view of God, I suppose. Not much of an argument though. If what I am saying is true you are only confirming Hebrews 4:12, which says the Word is sharper than any two edged sword and it looks like it's cuttin' at you :p.
 
M

Maranatha_Yeshua

Guest
#30
#30
karuna said:
It isn't immediately clear what Jude points to, as I said in the orginal post which discussed the pertinent Greek. Koine is not that hard to learn if you're willing to memorize th declensions. Furthermore, the word used there is so
common, a first year student would know it. There's no need to appeal to authority to know the most common translation is poor.

Furthermore, the point is not that homosexuality is "detestable" in the Bible. Again, I can't help but wonder how much is being read. Did god decide to destroy Sodom specifically for it or not? The best evidence people have is that it was one of many sins Sodom was known for and that it was one of the last recorded explicitly.
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Sorry but I would rather eat pork than learn Greek. (lol Nuhen)

Also no offense, but your personal view of Jude doesn't make it the orthodox interpretation, I can actually quote Scholars and Rabbis supporting homosexuality was the abominable sin Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed for.

I'm holding to my studies, and their opinions :).
 
B

Brackenzee

Banned
#31
Oct 17, 2009
325
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#31
But even that was a matter of apparently wanting to rape strangers, and Jude's comment about going after "other" flesh could easily be saying that they were bad because they wanted to forcibly take and rape strangers as a matter of course. To suggest that consensual homosexuality is so offensive that God would literally wipe two cities off the map because of it--even if they didn't know it was wrong--is not something that can be ineferred from what we know, and moreover, has done all kinds of psychological harm to gay believers.
 
M

Maranatha_Yeshua

Guest
#33
#33
Brackenzee said:
But even that was a matter of apparently wanting to rape strangers, and Jude's comment about going after "other" flesh could easily be saying that they were bad because they wanted to forcibly take and rape strangers as a matter of course. To suggest that consensual homosexuality is so offensive that God would literally wipe two cities off the map because of it--even if they didn't know it was wrong--is not something that can be ineferred from what we know, and moreover, has done all kinds of psychological harm to gay believers.
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Gay believers? *gasp*, no wonder you're trying so hard to justify Sodom and Gomorrah. I think you will stick to your views no matter what the bible says.
 
B

Brackenzee

Banned
#36
Oct 17, 2009
325
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#36
Leviticus 18:22
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman.It is an abomination.
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Obviously not. Lying with a man as with a woman is the sin. Being attracted to the same sex is not only not forbidden, but something largely beyond our control, just as I can't control that I'm more attracted to redheaded women than brunettes.
 
M

Maranatha_Yeshua

Guest
#37
#37
Brackenzee said:
Obviously not. Lying with a man as with a woman is the sin. Being attracted to the same sex is not only not forbidden, but something largely beyond our control, just as I can't control that I'm more attracted to redheaded women than brunettes.
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Okay, you know some would consider your views as heretical, denying the existence of hell, homosexuality is not a sin?

And you had the nerve to say I ignore the "actual text" ?
 
B

Brackenzee

Banned
#38
Oct 17, 2009
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#38
You are ignoring the actual text. I just quoted the actual text and you insist on a bigoted interpretation of it that has been causing psychological pain in people for centuries. To continue along that path is not loving, which means you're also ignoring the actual text in which Jesus commanded us to love one another.
 
M

Maranatha_Yeshua

Guest
#39
#39
One Christian theologian I enjoy says, "The Gospel Is Ours To Proclaim, Not To Edit."

I could show throughout the Bible homosexuality is a sin and hell is not metaphorical. But you wouldn't believe it even if the Bible said clearly "XYZ"..

Would you be willing to change your views if I could show you some text suggesting these things?
 
B

Brackenzee

Banned
#40
Oct 17, 2009
325
1
0
#40
Maranatha_Yeshua said:
One Christian theologian I enjoy says, "The Gospel Is Ours To Proclaim, Not To Edit."

I could show throughout the Bible homosexuality is a sin and hell is not metaphorical. But you wouldn't believe it even if the Bible said clearly "XYZ"..

Would you be willing to change your views if I could show you some text suggesting these things?
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If you can demonstrate that Jesus wants us to psychologically abuse people, please go right ahead. I'll pop some popcorn.
 
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