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A consideration of the Bible as a whole and especially a consideration of the New Testament interpretation of the whole. The Old Testament is an eastern book written by those with an oriental perspective. The orientals tend to think figuratively whether we like it or not. You would not find much support for American literalistic dogmatism among oriental Christians
It all depends on what you mean by figurative. The only doubtful question is as to who the '144,000', are, and that is made clear in Rev 21. They represent the whole people of God, later depicted as the New Jerusalem. So it makes total sense.
What does not make sense is that John wrote a book to the 1st century church which would have no application for 2000 years. Satan has certainly made sure that it keeps American Christians occupied so that they fall short in other spheres. They spend so much time in a future of their own invention that they actually MISS John's message to the churches throughout the centuries.
I think Rev 21 is quite adequate proof as is also the fact that in the church there is neither Jew nor Greek. Furthermore in the NT the church IS ISRAEL, and we are Jews inwardly, in other words TRUE JEWS. To go back to any other Israel would be for God to reverse His own program
Of course it has happened. God's true people were sealed from the beginning and have continued to be so. And they are in the heavenly Mount Zion with God, for the new Mount Zion is the mother of us all (Gal 4.20 ff.)
No, it is only unbelieving Jews who are rejecting Jesus as the Messiah. Present Israel (the true church) believe in Him fully.
Says you LOL
Yes and are no longer strangers and sojourners (Gentiles) but are fellow-citizens with the saints in the commonwealth of Israel (Eph 2). They are no longer Jews and Gentiles. They are all Israel.
So you don't believe that the multitude of Jews who believed in the Messiah were Israel? Only the unbelieving Jews of Judaism?. What a strange ignoring of the Old Testament doctrine of a remnant who form the true Israel. And how inconsistent that would be of God. WE ARE GOD'S ISRAEL.
NO ONE had said that God rejected 'His people'. What He rejected was those who rejected Him. His people continued on in an unbroken line through the Apostles and the vast number of Jews who believed through them, augmented by Gentile proselytes. It was the Jews who rejected their Messiah who were cut off from Israel although being welcome back if they repent. There has never been a time when true Israel has been rejected. Even in Elijah's time it formed 7000 men who had not bowed the knee to Baal.
It all depends on what you mean by figurative. The only doubtful question is as to who the '144,000', are, and that is made clear in Rev 21. They represent the whole people of God, later depicted as the New Jerusalem. So it makes total sense.
What does not make sense is that John wrote a book to the 1st century church which would have no application for 2000 years. Satan has certainly made sure that it keeps American Christians occupied so that they fall short in other spheres. They spend so much time in a future of their own invention that they actually MISS John's message to the churches throughout the centuries.
I think Rev 21 is quite adequate proof as is also the fact that in the church there is neither Jew nor Greek. Furthermore in the NT the church IS ISRAEL, and we are Jews inwardly, in other words TRUE JEWS. To go back to any other Israel would be for God to reverse His own program
Of course it has happened. God's true people were sealed from the beginning and have continued to be so. And they are in the heavenly Mount Zion with God, for the new Mount Zion is the mother of us all (Gal 4.20 ff.)
No, it is only unbelieving Jews who are rejecting Jesus as the Messiah. Present Israel (the true church) believe in Him fully.
Says you LOL
Yes and are no longer strangers and sojourners (Gentiles) but are fellow-citizens with the saints in the commonwealth of Israel (Eph 2). They are no longer Jews and Gentiles. They are all Israel.
So you don't believe that the multitude of Jews who believed in the Messiah were Israel? Only the unbelieving Jews of Judaism?. What a strange ignoring of the Old Testament doctrine of a remnant who form the true Israel. And how inconsistent that would be of God. WE ARE GOD'S ISRAEL.
NO ONE had said that God rejected 'His people'. What He rejected was those who rejected Him. His people continued on in an unbroken line through the Apostles and the vast number of Jews who believed through them, augmented by Gentile proselytes. It was the Jews who rejected their Messiah who were cut off from Israel although being welcome back if they repent. There has never been a time when true Israel has been rejected. Even in Elijah's time it formed 7000 men who had not bowed the knee to Baal.
K
Well I think you've been here long enough to know better. If you are asked a question someone else doesnt jump in and answer for you. But since you agree with KJV views you're going to back him whether hes rude or not. Thats fine,not very honest but whatever. Nothing surprises me on here after this thread.
Originally Posted by crossnote
And we can't forget this one:
"Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: In that day, when my people Israel are living in safety, will you not take notice of it? You will come from your place in the far north, you and many nations with you, all of them riding on horses, a great horde, a mighty army. You will advance against my people Israel like a cloud that covers the land. In days to come, Gog, I will bring you against my land, so that the nations may know me when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.
And we can't forget this one:
"Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: In that day, when my people Israel are living in safety, will you not take notice of it? You will come from your place in the far north, you and many nations with you, all of them riding on horses, a great horde, a mighty army. You will advance against my people Israel like a cloud that covers the land. In days to come, Gog, I will bring you against my land, so that the nations may know me when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.
LOL SOON take place. And you make soon 2000 years? John was pointing out what was to following in his own time and immediately beyond prior to the second coming.
which in your terms have not happened. Maybe John was in a time warp? LOL You have been watching too much Star Trek
But John said they will SOON take place. How can our future be SOON to John. (watch out everyone for the twisting of the Greek typical of premills).
Yes and the king of the angels will be released with them. Now I wonder who the king of the angels is? So Satan is released from the abyss well before the second coming.
which in your terms have not happened. Maybe John was in a time warp? LOL You have been watching too much Star Trek
But John said they will SOON take place. How can our future be SOON to John. (watch out everyone for the twisting of the Greek typical of premills).
Yes and the king of the angels will be released with them. Now I wonder who the king of the angels is? So Satan is released from the abyss well before the second coming.
Originally Posted by valiant
Per history it occurred after the return from exile. That was the only time throughout history that Israel lived in unprotected towns. and lived in safety
Revelation knows NOTHING of such an event.
Revelation knows NOTHING of such an event.
But Ezekiel does NOT. He prophesies concerning Gog OF Magog, In Ezekiel Gog was the commander, Magog the place with which he was connected. It was referring to the house of Gugu of Lydia. Magog was in Asia Minor (unless we accept it as a cypher for Babylon).
It was during the inter-testamental period that the idea of GOG AND MAGOG was invented. Thus Revelation has nothing to do with Ezekiel
Far from it - that's an article I wrote which refutes the HRM position that believers are grafted into Israel and as such are subject to Her Law. Check it out . The article is found at Joyfully Growing In Grace, which examines the beliefs found in the HRM and measures them against the simple Truths of the Gospel.
-JGIG
. The article is found at Joyfully Growing In Grace, which examines the beliefs found in the HRM and measures them against the simple Truths of the Gospel.-JGIG
LOL now I am learning something new. I did not realise that the Romans were involved after the return from exile. Actually the Medo-Persians were 'world rulers' at the time. And the Jews were NOT ALLOWED to build walled cities. They lived in 'unwalled villages' and lived at peace. You are three hundred years too late
Far from it - that's an article I wrote which refutes the HRM position that believers are grafted into Israel and as such are subject to Her Law. Check it out . The article is found at Joyfully Growing In Grace, which examines the beliefs found in the HRM and measures them against the simple Truths of the Gospel.
-JGIG
. The article is found at Joyfully Growing In Grace, which examines the beliefs found in the HRM and measures them against the simple Truths of the Gospel.-JGIG
I've been here and on other forums over the past several years to know that it happens all the time! And I choose to roll with it and not be offended when it happens to me. It is what it is and not worth making a big issue of. If you ignore it, it often goes away.
You must have not read this post very carefully:
Originally Posted by JGIG
You don't. This is a discussion forum. Any of us are free to chime in when we feel we have something to offer in the discussion.
I may not agree with your point, but I support your right to make it.
kaylagrl, you might want to loosen up on the reigns a bit. This is a discussion forum. You know . . . for people to discuss stuff.
I bolded the part you seem to have missed so that you can see that what you said about ME was not very honest. And I choose to see it as an unintentional oversight and not an intentional offense.
-JGIG
You must have not read this post very carefully:
You don't. This is a discussion forum. Any of us are free to chime in when we feel we have something to offer in the discussion.
I may not agree with your point, but I support your right to make it.
kaylagrl, you might want to loosen up on the reigns a bit. This is a discussion forum. You know . . . for people to discuss stuff.
I bolded the part you seem to have missed so that you can see that what you said about ME was not very honest. And I choose to see it as an unintentional oversight and not an intentional offense
.-JGIG
Speak for yourself. I believe what this says:
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt. Hosea 11:1
And [Jesus] was there until the death of Herod, in order that what was said by the Lord through the prophet would be fulfilled, saying, “Out of Egypt I called my son.” Matthew 2:15
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt. Hosea 11:1
And [Jesus] was there until the death of Herod, in order that what was said by the Lord through the prophet would be fulfilled, saying, “Out of Egypt I called my son.” Matthew 2:15