What would have to happen for you to change your Eschatological position?

[NarrowRoadDisciple]

As rachelbiblestudent has stated, God would have to change His word for my eschatological view to change. It's pretty clear from the scriptures what He says will happen. For the record I've never read Scofield, studied in depth the views of people who come up with great theories that everyone follows in the modern church today, nor do I ascribe to denominational beliefs and views.

Study the scriptures to verify and ascertain if things are so with the correct context. The Holy Spirit will lead us into His understanding.

And if anyone is unclear, God is not double minded nor will He contradict Himself from person to person.

 

[crossnote]

Now that many Jews are back in their Land, albeit mostly in unbelief, I'll change or at least seriously reconsider my eschatological view if they get expelled again.

 

[Bookends]

Now that many Jews are back in their Land, albeit mostly in unbelief, I'll change or at least seriously reconsider my eschatological view if they get expelled again.

That's fair, however, I thought your view predicts the Jews will be in a great battle again, where 1/3 are scattered and 1/3 killed.

 

[Bookends]

I never said it did, I hope your not tryng t tell me I did.

I just showed what God would said would happen if they were taken away because of sin, and later repented.

So do you agree with what God told moses or not?



Yes, As Jeremiah prophesied, and as Daniel admitten when he made his intercessary prayer in Dan 9.



Oh I see where your going.

I do not see it this way, I see it as differing levels of punishment. Again, I do not like to add things which are not infered in scripture. No place in lev 26 is the words 70 X 7 used or inferred.

The final level of punishment was total military defeat. this actually occurred completely for the first time in 70 AD, and has gone on now for close to 2000 years. Israel still has not repented. So thats why Jerusalem is still in ruins.


Um, Israel is still in transgression, Jerusalem (according to Gods will for jerusalem) is still under gentile rule (still in ruin)

So we have issues.

Again, If the nation of Israel repented, and admited their sins as God demands in lev 26, Will God keep his promise or not?

That is the issue

Israel is not still in transgressions, if you have the correct view of the Israel of God, the true Israel. Ephesians 2 and Galatians 6 should clear that up, for some reason it doesn't for some people.

Ephesians 2
[h=3]Brought Near by His Blood[/h]11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Question: What have the gentiles been brought near to by the blood of Christ?
Question: What benefit do the gentiles have by being brought into the commonwealth of Israel?

Galatians 6
[h=3]Glory Only in the Cross[/h]11 See with what large letters I have written to you with my own hand! 12 As many as desire to make a good showing in the flesh, these would compel you to be circumcised, only that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. 13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh. 14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom[a] the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
[h=3]Blessing and a Plea[/h]16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them (individual), and upon the Israel of God(the whole body of Christ,universal Church).
Question: What is the rule?
Question: Who else could Paul be referring to as "the Israel of God" in verse 16?

[h=3][/h]

 

[Bookends]

I never said it did, I hope your not tryng t tell me I did.

I just showed what God would said would happen if they were taken away because of sin, and later repented.

So do you agree with what God told moses or not?



Yes, As Jeremiah prophesied, and as Daniel admitten when he made his intercessary prayer in Dan 9.



Oh I see where your going.

I do not see it this way, I see it as differing levels of punishment. Again, I do not like to add things which are not infered in scripture. No place in lev 26 is the words 70 X 7 used or inferred.

The final level of punishment was total military defeat. this actually occurred completely for the first time in 70 AD, and has gone on now for close to 2000 years. Israel still has not repented. So thats why Jerusalem is still in ruins.


Um, Israel is still in transgression, Jerusalem (according to Gods will for jerusalem) is still under gentile rule (still in ruin)

So we have issues.

Again, If the nation of Israel repented, and admited their sins as God demands in lev 26, Will God keep his promise or not?

That is the issue

Back to the transgressions of Israel. Jesus said in Matt. 23:

31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up (complete), then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt.33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city,35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Jesus tells them to fill up or complete the transgression here. How did they do this, by killing Christ. They filled up the guilt of their fathers by killing their messiah. When a transgression is filled, there are only two options, repentance and forgiveness or God's Judgment and wrath. Most of Jews did not repent and went on further to persecute Christ and His body by going after the Jews that did repent, the Church. This how Paul understood it, in 1 Thessalonians 2:16, Paul says the wrath of God has come upon them to the UTTERMOST for killing Christ and the prophets.

13 For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe. 14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

Thus, The Jews finished out the amount of transgression they were going to commit before God's wrath will come upon them.

When it comes down to it EG, I have to believe what the bibles says, not what men think it says.

 

[Bookends]

I never said it did, I hope your not tryng t tell me I did.

I just showed what God would said would happen if they were taken away because of sin, and later repented.

So do you agree with what God told moses or not?



Yes, As Jeremiah prophesied, and as Daniel admitten when he made his intercessary prayer in Dan 9.



Oh I see where your going.I do not see it this way, I see it as differing levels of punishment. Again, I do not like to add things which are not infered in scripture. No place in lev 26 is the words 70 X 7 used or inferred.

The final level of punishment was total military defeat. this actually occurred completely for the first time in 70 AD, and has gone on now for close to 2000 years. Israel still has not repented. So thats why Jerusalem is still in ruins.


Um, Israel is still in transgression, Jerusalem (according to Gods will for jerusalem) is still under gentile rule (still in ruin)

So we have issues.

EG, How did Daniel see it? Please, forget how you see it... Daniel Chapter 9, it's in there.

8 “O Lord, to us belongs shame of face, to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, because we have sinned against You. 9 To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, though we have rebelled against Him. 10 We have not obeyed the voice of the Lord our God, to walk in His laws, which He set before us by His servants the prophets. 11 Yes, all Israel has transgressed Your law, and has departed so as not to obey Your voice; therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him. 12 And He has confirmed His words, which He spoke against us and against our judges who judged us, by bringing upon us a great disaster; for under the whole heaven such has never been done as what has been done to Jerusalem (side note: where have we seen this phrase before? Hint: Matthew 24).
13 “As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come upon us;yet we have not made our prayer before the Lord our God, that we might turn from our iniquities and understand Your truth. 14 Therefore the Lord has kept the disaster in mind, and brought it upon us; for the Lord our God is righteous in all the works which He does, though we have not obeyed His voice. 15 And now, O Lord our God, who brought Your people out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and made Yourself a name, as it is this day—we have sinned, we have done wickedly!

Daniel admits Israel did not repent as a whole and that these curse are now upon them, God is going to enforce the 7 times prophecy after the initial 70 years. I don't believe the 7x means more of the same or like punishment (although I think perhaps in revelations it does regarding the seals and bowls) but rather in time. 490 extra years the Jews were to continue without a nation, a rightful king, and it all hasn't been blissful for them, within the 490 they were always subject to other nations and at times struggled against the people around them (with in this time frame we have the 7 years Jacob's trouble). Thus we have the first 70 years of punishment, then that curse added, since they didn't all repent (some did, not the nation as a whole), we have 70 x 7...

24. “Seventy weeks (7) are determined. Not 70 x7 (weeks) with gaps (2000+ yrs) bro. It was 490 years for all the things listed in Daniel 9:24 to come to fulfillment, and I can used the bible to prove it.

 

[JaumeJ]

In response to title only. Nothing will change mine since I do not try to figure or claim I have it figured out. I believe when it comes to the actualization of predictive prophesy, the best approach is to watch and learn as it comes about. Meanwhile we read such books as the Prophets and Revelation to keep abreast with what is happening. God will not leave His children in the dark.

Remember what Daniel was told when he said he did not understand the words to the prophesy he wrote down. He was told to seal up the prophesy in a book for it is for a generation to come..they will understand. I believe this, and I will believe this.

In 2003 while reading in Isaiah, I realized the prophesy concerning Damascus had not yet come about. I was moved to ask all who were willing to pray for the inhabitants of Damascus because I realized that it had not been fulfilled, the prophesy concerning the utter destruction of Damascus. No, the Lord did not say, "Tell everyone about Damascus." I, being in Jesus Christ, just wanted to assure that all who love Him would pray for these people because I knew the prophesy had not yet come about, and the time, as far as I believe, is very little for it to be realized.

I still ask all who are of a heart to do so to pray for the people of Damascus, while we pray for all mankind. God bless you always.........

 

[crossnote]

That's fair, however, I thought your view predicts the Jews will be in a great battle again, where 1/3 are scattered and 1/3 killed.

True, and??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Israel is not still in transgressions, if you have the correct view of the Israel of God, the true Israel. Ephesians 2 and Galatians 6 should clear that up, for some reason it doesn't for some people.

Ephesians 2
Brought Near by His Blood

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
Question: What have the gentiles been brought near to by the blood of Christ?
Question: What benefit do the gentiles have by being brought into the commonwealth of Israel?

Galatians 6
Glory Only in the Cross

11 See with what large letters I have written to you with my own hand! 12 As many as desire to make a good showing in the flesh, these would compel you to be circumcised, only that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ. 13 For not even those who are circumcised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumcised that they may boast in your flesh. 14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom[a] the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.
Blessing and a Plea

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them (individual), and upon the Israel of God(the whole body of Christ,universal Church).
Question: What is the rule?
Question: Who else could Paul be referring to as "the Israel of God" in verse 16?

Then according to lev 26. We should be living in peace in the land promised to our fathers.

But as Paul said in romans 11. It was not for us, it was for the, And they are in unbelief and sin now (blind in part) and our enemy concerning the gospel.

Your trying to mix land promise with salvic promise. they do not mix.. Never were intended to mix.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Back to the transgressions of Israel. Jesus said in Matt. 23:

31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up (complete), then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt.33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city,35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Jesus tells them to fill up or complete the transgression here. How did they do this, by killing Christ. They filled up the guilt of their fathers by killing their messiah. When a transgression is filled, there are only two options, repentance and forgiveness or God's Judgment and wrath. Most of Jews did not repent and went on further to persecute Christ and His body by going after the Jews that did repent, the Church. This how Paul understood it, in 1 Thessalonians 2:16, Paul says the wrath of God has come upon them to the UTTERMOST for killing Christ and the prophets.

13 For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe. 14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

Thus, The Jews finished out the amount of transgression they were going to commit before God's wrath will come upon them.

When it comes down to it EG, I have to believe what the bibles says, not what men think it says.

So do I. I have to believe Lev 26, Which states the very thing you just said would happen to Israel when they sin against God,

But even after this, If they repent, God will remember the promise to the fathers.

So when are you REALLY going to listen to the bible. and not men?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG, How did Daniel see it? Please, forget how you see it... Daniel Chapter 9, it's in there.

8 “O Lord, to us belongs shame of face, to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, because we have sinned against You. 9 To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, though we have rebelled against Him. 10 We have not obeyed the voice of the Lord our God, to walk in His laws, which He set before us by His servants the prophets. 11 Yes, all Israel has transgressed Your law, and has departed so as not to obey Your voice; therefore the curse and the oath written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out on us, because we have sinned against Him. 12 And He has confirmed His words, which He spoke against us and against our judges who judged us, by bringing upon us a great disaster; for under the whole heaven such has never been done as what has been done to Jerusalem (side note: where have we seen this phrase before? Hint: Matthew 24).

The curse is lev 26, You know the very passage of scripture I keep tryin to take you too..

Yes it is in matt 24.

But I have shown you this before. maybe you forgot?

13 “As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this disaster has come upon us;yet we have not made our prayer before the Lord our God, that we might turn from our iniquities and understand Your truth. 14 Therefore the Lord has kept the disaster in mind, and brought it upon us; for the Lord our God is righteous in all the works which He does, though we have not obeyed His voice. 15 And now, O Lord our God, who brought Your people out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and made Yourself a name, as it is this day—we have sinned, we have done wickedly!

Daniel admits Israel did not repent as a whole and that these curse are now upon them, God is going to enforce the 7 times prophecy after the initial 70 years. I don't believe the 7x means more of the same or like punishment (although I think perhaps in revelations it does regarding the seals and bowls) but rather in time. 490 extra years the Jews were to continue without a nation, a rightful king, and it all hasn't been blissful for them, within the 490 they were always subject to other nations and at times struggled against the people around them (with in this time frame we have the 7 years Jacob's trouble). Thus we have the first 70 years of punishment, then that curse added, since they didn't all repent (some did, not the nation as a whole), we have 70 x 7...

24. “Seventy weeks (7) are determined. Not 70 x7 (weeks) with gaps (2000+ yrs) bro. It was 490 years for all the things listed in Daniel 9:24 to come to fulfillment, and I can used the bible to prove it.

I disagree.

God says if you still fail to obey me, I will punish you seven times greater, and add to that punishment this punishment.

Total military defeat and destruction of city and sanctuary was the last aspect or cycle of that discipline.

Dan 9 is shown that 490 years are given to make and end of sin. Israel is still in sin, it was never brought to an end.

Ez 37 says when Israel is restored. her sin will have stopped (they will not sin again)


Ez 37: ~[SUP]22 [/SUP]and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. [SUP]23 [/SUP]They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God.


See when you take all prophesy together, it starts to make sense. The "end of sin" of Daniel 9 is also the End of transgressions of Ez 37.. They fit together. It is when, in matt 24. Jesus returns. It all fits perfectly together. We just have to look, and we will see.