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P
While I would change...
...to "There are many perceived contradictions in the Bible," I agree with the sentiment you present, which I also see as a truth.
And I would take that a little further in regards to denominational differences: I believe that the Word of God is presented in such a way that doctrines which on the surface seems reasonable, are better understood when balanced with the Whole Counsel.
This might be a safeguard for those who are in the habit of study habits which are not as diligent as they should be. Some of the doctrinal distinctives held by certain groups do not bring culpability for sin in the sense that many are sincere in their beliefs about those distinctives and are judged according to their conscience. I think that diligence in study is a must and is in fact commanded, but this illustrates the grace of God in dealing with His children.
God bless.
...to "There are many perceived contradictions in the Bible," I agree with the sentiment you present, which I also see as a truth.
And I would take that a little further in regards to denominational differences: I believe that the Word of God is presented in such a way that doctrines which on the surface seems reasonable, are better understood when balanced with the Whole Counsel.
This might be a safeguard for those who are in the habit of study habits which are not as diligent as they should be. Some of the doctrinal distinctives held by certain groups do not bring culpability for sin in the sense that many are sincere in their beliefs about those distinctives and are judged according to their conscience. I think that diligence in study is a must and is in fact commanded, but this illustrates the grace of God in dealing with His children.
God bless.
P
Can I suggest to you that this is not a gray area, as we know that God gives all men revelation, and justly judges according to the response of men to that revelation?
Consider:
Romans 1:18-20
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
[SUP]20[/SUP]For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Basically we see that no man will have a reason for rejecting the revelation God provides. Paul sums up this statement by saying knowledge of God is revealed, and that no man has an excuse.
Romans 2:11-16
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For there is no respect of persons with God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
[SUP]13 [/SUP](For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
God is no respecter of persons, and that means He gives all men the opportunity for obedience. Paul speaks of both Gentiles who have not the Law as well as those who do (Israel, Romans 3) and makes it clear...God is not showing any favoritism.
The basic thrust is that Paul is clarifying that no man will have an excuse for rejecting the revelation God gives. When we go into the hearts of the Jungle to those who have never heard of a Bible we find an amazing thing...consciences that acknowledge God's will on some fundamental levels. They know there is a Supreme Being, that murder and theft is wrong, and we don't have to go any further than Romans 1-2 to see why this is. Those men will be judged according to their response to that revelation written in their hearts, and judged justly.
That is the view I have, anyway, so I do not for myself see it as a gray area.
Thanks for the post.
God bless.
Consider:
Romans 1:18-20
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
[SUP]20[/SUP]For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Basically we see that no man will have a reason for rejecting the revelation God provides. Paul sums up this statement by saying knowledge of God is revealed, and that no man has an excuse.
Romans 2:11-16
King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For there is no respect of persons with God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
[SUP]13 [/SUP](For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
God is no respecter of persons, and that means He gives all men the opportunity for obedience. Paul speaks of both Gentiles who have not the Law as well as those who do (Israel, Romans 3) and makes it clear...God is not showing any favoritism.
The basic thrust is that Paul is clarifying that no man will have an excuse for rejecting the revelation God gives. When we go into the hearts of the Jungle to those who have never heard of a Bible we find an amazing thing...consciences that acknowledge God's will on some fundamental levels. They know there is a Supreme Being, that murder and theft is wrong, and we don't have to go any further than Romans 1-2 to see why this is. Those men will be judged according to their response to that revelation written in their hearts, and judged justly.
That is the view I have, anyway, so I do not for myself see it as a gray area.
Thanks for the post.
God bless.
P
well, are you looking for, or wanting to talk about, a formula for when God saves or gives the spirit?
my impression from the scriptures is that God doesn't always behave in ways that we can predict.
for example, are there loopholes that God knows about but you or I don't?
Here is a response to these statements and questions:
The purpose of the "Ten Reasons to Reject Baptismal Regeneration" is to generate discussion about the beliefs some hold that teach that men receive the Spirit of God when they are water baptized. Some faiths teach that if one does not get baptized in water by men then they cannot receive the Spirit of God.
On a Church of Christ Forum I was on the Moderation (which were CoC members) would not allow me to discuss the issue. I left.
No point being on a forum that will not stand up or discuss the beliefs they say they have embraced, and shut down discussion that challenges their views. This is an abuse of power and is a bit cowardly if you ask me.
Sound Doctrine has nothing to fear, and we have liberty within sound doctrine to go anywhere we choose, as well as liberty to wipe the dust from our feet.
So give some examples. Should be an interesting focus of discussion.
But are there examples in Scripture we can look at?
That would be more to the point of the OP.
God bless.
P
Not sure what that means, Dan.
I think there is a formula which we can see presented in Scripture. It follows a very basic pattern of the revelation of truth to an individual, and the positive response of obedience tot hat truth.
As one just pointed out in a recent post the Truth that God reveals in this Age is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
But we can still see a general pattern even for those who have not heard the Gospel: God has revealed Himself tot he hearts of all men, and based on their response to that revelation they will be judged. Those who reject the direct revelation of the Gospel of Christ and the convicting Ministry of the Comforter (Who was sent to begin this distinct ministry which has a focus of convicting of sin, righteousness, and judgment, and to glorify Christ Himself, which He does by revealing the Gospel to the natural man (John 16:7-9)) will face more severe punishment than those who rejected the Covenant of Law, or those who rejected the revelation God gives to all men (Hebrews 10:26-29; 2 Peter 2:20-22).
Things boil differently depending on the pressure applied. I have a machine that will not only cause water, but oil to boil because I am removing pressure. At atmospheric pressure water boils at a particular temperature, but, if I place that water in a vacuum I do not cause it to boil because of applied heat, but because I change the conditions the water is in.
This is similar to the difference between the natural man under conditions of ignorance of the truth, and the natural man under conviction of the Comforter. Two very different condition though the same subject is in view (water/natural man).
Apart from that "formula" taught in Scripture...there is no salvation. Men do not intellectually embrace the Gospel and get saved in their own efforts, nor do they have within them any capacity to understand the Spiritual Things of God.
Just as water will not boil with the right formula to create that result, even so men will not be saved apart from the convicting ministry of the Comforter.
And while we have many ways that water can be boiled off, there is only one way for men to be saved.
God bless.
I think there is a formula which we can see presented in Scripture. It follows a very basic pattern of the revelation of truth to an individual, and the positive response of obedience tot hat truth.
As one just pointed out in a recent post the Truth that God reveals in this Age is the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
But we can still see a general pattern even for those who have not heard the Gospel: God has revealed Himself tot he hearts of all men, and based on their response to that revelation they will be judged. Those who reject the direct revelation of the Gospel of Christ and the convicting Ministry of the Comforter (Who was sent to begin this distinct ministry which has a focus of convicting of sin, righteousness, and judgment, and to glorify Christ Himself, which He does by revealing the Gospel to the natural man (John 16:7-9)) will face more severe punishment than those who rejected the Covenant of Law, or those who rejected the revelation God gives to all men (Hebrews 10:26-29; 2 Peter 2:20-22).
Things boil differently depending on the pressure applied. I have a machine that will not only cause water, but oil to boil because I am removing pressure. At atmospheric pressure water boils at a particular temperature, but, if I place that water in a vacuum I do not cause it to boil because of applied heat, but because I change the conditions the water is in.
This is similar to the difference between the natural man under conditions of ignorance of the truth, and the natural man under conviction of the Comforter. Two very different condition though the same subject is in view (water/natural man).
Apart from that "formula" taught in Scripture...there is no salvation. Men do not intellectually embrace the Gospel and get saved in their own efforts, nor do they have within them any capacity to understand the Spiritual Things of God.
Just as water will not boil with the right formula to create that result, even so men will not be saved apart from the convicting ministry of the Comforter.
And while we have many ways that water can be boiled off, there is only one way for men to be saved.
God bless.
I think 1 sam 16 where God counsels samuel to deceive saul is unexpected... I was surprised the first time I read it... I was expecting "Go, I will protect you."
ok, I'm confused again... is the point of the op to restrict possibilities to just what God might find in the scriptures? I thought earlier you'd said 'discuss anything you like'...
ok, I'm confused again... is the point of the op to restrict possibilities to just what God might find in the scriptures? I thought earlier you'd said 'discuss anything you like'...
The Bible was made in such a way, to weed out those who do not Truly want to know the Truth. It is the Holy Spirit that gives a person understanding of the Word of God, but that does not come, unless they feed the Holy Ghost to make it strone enough to reveal to the physical mind of that person a Truth. Feeding the Holy Spirit is done by the hearing of, or reading of, the Word of God. So then the more you read or hear the Word, the stronger the Holy Spirit becomes, and the more the Spirit of Truth reveals to you. The Word of God is FOOD for the Holy Spirit of God. Have you ever read a verse many times and "Nothing" but then you read it the tenth time, and like lightning bolt hitting you, you understand the verse, the Truth concerning that verse is being revealed to you because it was only at that moment the Holy Spirit was strong enough in you, to reveal that Truth to you.
The Word was created specifically to do this. Those who read the Bible and say it is too confusing, to difficult to understand and the such, and they never pick it up again, have FAILED, and do NOT Truly desire to know and understand the TRUTH. i myself when i was a kid read the entire Bible front to back three times, and "Nothing" After i read the entire Bible three times, i prayed to God, crying my eyes out to Him, "Why Lord did you make your Word so confusing, so difficult to understand, Why Lord, Why? (still crying like a baby) "i will read it again, Lord" When i was 12 reading the Bible the fourth time, is when understanding of the Scriptures opened up to me, like lightning. It took four times reading the entire Bible before my Holy Spirit was strong enough to start revealing the Truths of Scriptures to me. And even now, after reading the Entire Bible over 80 times in my life, the Holy Spirit of Truth is revealing Truths to me, that 79 other times i read the verse it was not made known to me. How many times have you read the entire Bible? How strong is the Holy Ghost in you? i ask that to all.
^i^ responding to OP
The Word was created specifically to do this. Those who read the Bible and say it is too confusing, to difficult to understand and the such, and they never pick it up again, have FAILED, and do NOT Truly desire to know and understand the TRUTH. i myself when i was a kid read the entire Bible front to back three times, and "Nothing" After i read the entire Bible three times, i prayed to God, crying my eyes out to Him, "Why Lord did you make your Word so confusing, so difficult to understand, Why Lord, Why? (still crying like a baby) "i will read it again, Lord" When i was 12 reading the Bible the fourth time, is when understanding of the Scriptures opened up to me, like lightning. It took four times reading the entire Bible before my Holy Spirit was strong enough to start revealing the Truths of Scriptures to me. And even now, after reading the Entire Bible over 80 times in my life, the Holy Spirit of Truth is revealing Truths to me, that 79 other times i read the verse it was not made known to me. How many times have you read the entire Bible? How strong is the Holy Ghost in you? i ask that to all.
^i^ responding to OP
ok, back in post #112, the "One can assert that the thing is not known" is placed inside the quote box for P1LGR1M... I believe it's something I wrote, and should go inside of the "Dan" quote box... (compare to post #109)
yes, things influence the boiling point of water... I think most people will agree that water is very deterministic in its behavior... water doesn't make 'choices' of when it will boil...
But God very much has the ability to choose... and with a very high degree of intelligence, may see something in the scriptures that we don't...
yes, things influence the boiling point of water... I think most people will agree that water is very deterministic in its behavior... water doesn't make 'choices' of when it will boil...
But God very much has the ability to choose... and with a very high degree of intelligence, may see something in the scriptures that we don't...
looks like the 'loop-hole' responses have ended, so I want to move on to the 'gray'...
I think that yes, there are gray areas in the scriptures, or closely related to the scriptures. By 'gray area', I mean something that:
two reasonable, informed people are likely look at, and come away with different understandings, or say that it's unclear.
a simple example is Ps 2:12
see note at the bottom of this page for the various possible readings:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ps+2&version=NASB
I think that yes, there are gray areas in the scriptures, or closely related to the scriptures. By 'gray area', I mean something that:
two reasonable, informed people are likely look at, and come away with different understandings, or say that it's unclear.
a simple example is Ps 2:12
see note at the bottom of this page for the various possible readings:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ps+2&version=NASB
P
I wouldn't really see this as a gray area, but rather an area dealing with the manuscript evidence we have, one which we must decide if we believe this passage should be considered Inspired.
I personally think that it should be included, primarily because manuscripts lacking this portion do not necessarily create a position that we can dogmatically state no manuscript ever did.
And I think the controversy that surrounds this passage is one which usually applies to doctrinal distinctives of certain groups when they seek to use them to proof-text doctrine and practice. The question is...is there something within this passage that contradicts the Word of God elsewhere, which is the basis for rejecting something that is presented as Inspired.
I don't see anything that contradicts Scripture elsewhere, myself, and seeing that I will be judged according t my conscience in regards to my view of the passage, for me I don't have a problem accepting it as Inspired. If I am wrong, that doesn't mean that God will punish me for that view, unless I violate my conscience on what I see it as teaching. If I do violate my conscience, then I have no expectation but to be judged according to that.
And that still takes us back to presenting what is thought to be a gray area. Do you see something in this passage that presents a gray area? Or is it the passage itself alone you feel is the gray area? As I said, I don't see that as a gray area, because if one rejects it as Inspired due to a lack of manuscript evidence, or perceived disruption of the thoughts of the Writer, then for them it is a settled issue. To see the inclusion as a gray area would, I would think, also be a settled issue, or at the very least, something that one can come to a determination eventually.
If I take that passage and create doctrine which does conflict with other teachings of Scripture, then that is not a gray area either, I am violating a very simple principle, in that all of our doctrine has to agree with all points of Scripture, because Scripture does not contradict itself.
God bless.
I personally think that it should be included, primarily because manuscripts lacking this portion do not necessarily create a position that we can dogmatically state no manuscript ever did.
And I think the controversy that surrounds this passage is one which usually applies to doctrinal distinctives of certain groups when they seek to use them to proof-text doctrine and practice. The question is...is there something within this passage that contradicts the Word of God elsewhere, which is the basis for rejecting something that is presented as Inspired.
I don't see anything that contradicts Scripture elsewhere, myself, and seeing that I will be judged according t my conscience in regards to my view of the passage, for me I don't have a problem accepting it as Inspired. If I am wrong, that doesn't mean that God will punish me for that view, unless I violate my conscience on what I see it as teaching. If I do violate my conscience, then I have no expectation but to be judged according to that.
And that still takes us back to presenting what is thought to be a gray area. Do you see something in this passage that presents a gray area? Or is it the passage itself alone you feel is the gray area? As I said, I don't see that as a gray area, because if one rejects it as Inspired due to a lack of manuscript evidence, or perceived disruption of the thoughts of the Writer, then for them it is a settled issue. To see the inclusion as a gray area would, I would think, also be a settled issue, or at the very least, something that one can come to a determination eventually.
If I take that passage and create doctrine which does conflict with other teachings of Scripture, then that is not a gray area either, I am violating a very simple principle, in that all of our doctrine has to agree with all points of Scripture, because Scripture does not contradict itself.
God bless.
S
Can you explain about the first part of John8? What would cause one to think it shouldn't be in the bible? I've never heard that before about this passage, but I have lot's to learn. I at times, have clinged (clung?) to this whole chapter/passage for comfort, re-assurance, and as a proof text of Jesus' divininty, authority, and love.