Is the Devil bound right now...?

Bowman · Nov 3, 2015

Anyone on autopilot can mention a scripture name and number.

Very, very few, however, can defend that name and number.

You have proven many times that you cannot defend what you speak.

All we hear from you is constant deflection....'ummmm..I posted it way back in this thread'.....'2k years of history can't be wrong'.....'look it up for yourself'...etc. etc.

No one takes you seriously...

Hoffco · Nov 3, 2015

It is my Reformed friends who promote Satan is now bound, so, they tell me, "don't talk of Satan, He is bound". Reformed theology destroys the Book of Revelation. For them Revelation is all past, fulfilled, That is SUCH a stupid theory, SOOO dumb.!! Sorry, but, that is my opinion,! I believe in a literal / figurative interpretation of Revelation, and, what is literal in Revelation is VERY clear, what is Figurative is clear, BUT the Figurative MEANING is not clear. So, stop playing GOD, to my Reformed friend,.!! Love to all, Hoffco

Bowman · Nov 3, 2015

Hoffco said:

Satan is bound according to scripture.

Those that reject this fact are giving power to Satan that he simply does not have....and are thus praising Satan.

Cassian · Nov 3, 2015

Bowman said:

Most don't take scripture seriously. What would be unusual that most deny scriptural Truth that has existed and has been preserved by the Holy Spirit for 2000 years. Man has a lot of opinions but rarely basis them on the factual meaning of scripture as it was given in the beginning.

Bowman · Nov 3, 2015

Cassian said:

You are good for a name and a number.

DP · Nov 4, 2015

To the deceived Preterists, the devil has already been bound, which is why they also turn a blind eye to the evil that is still going on in the world and have to attribute the evil somewhere else besides Satan. It is really a theory that destroys any sense of reality as to the times we are in today. Because of the false Preterist doctrines they hold to, they reject Revelation as having any future bearing, and thus they don't even recognize a complete Bible.

Cassian · Nov 4, 2015

DP said:

So you cannot prove your own point so now we need to add another false teaching just to hopefully give some credence to another.

I might also add that you still have no scriptural understanding of the binding of Satan which has nothing to do with Satan's activity or evil in the world whatsoever. You are bouncing from one theory to another.

valiant · Nov 4, 2015

DP said:

Poor old Jesus. He believed that Satan was bound (Matt 12.28-29). Must have been a preterist LOL Although I believe Satan was bound too. And I'm not a preterist

DiscipleDave · Nov 8, 2015

DiscipleDave said

Ahwatukee said:

You do not understand that the Glorified Body is both Flesh and Spirit. Spiritual because it is from Heaven, Body because that Spirit manifest physical flesh. Flesh and Blood shall not inherit the Kingdom of God, therefore Flesh and Blood is NOT what is risen from the dead. The sleeping Spirit is what raises to be with Christ, and that same Spirit will be a fleshly spirit, a Glorified Body, Flesh not from the Earth.

Act_13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

1Co_11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

1Co_15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Th_4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th_5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Notice they all SLEEP, not resurrected to be with Jesus as People teach that when they die they immediately go to Heaven, Scriptures plainly teach they sleep.

Ahwatukee said:

You say it is a the time of death. Scriptures does not teach it is at the time of death. Scripture teach that when we die, we sleep, NOT gone to Heaven and be with Christ. Think about it, there are so many flaws in the belief that when a person dies they immediately go to Heaven or to Hell. If you immediately go to Heaven when you die, there would be no need for Christ to come and get you when He returns. And i already know you think it is to get the body, but that is not True nor is it Scriptural either.

1Co_15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Flesh and blood (Human flesh) will NOT enter into the Kingdom of God. Flesh and Blood will return back to dust from whence it came, it will decay and turn to dust, it will NOT rise from the dead. Now in the end satan will raise an army of skeletons, which he will then turn to human flesh, to create an army to attack the Holy City that will have landed over where the old Jerusalem use to be.

Ahwatukee said:

Brother what you are saying here is True, the difference is we are talking about the TIME in which this Spiritual Body (Body made of flesh from Heaven) is raised. You teach (Scriptures does not) that that body is raised at the time of death. Here is the Truth. when a person dies, if they are a Christian they will SLEEP. When Christ Returns Those Spirits will awaken out of sleep and rise to be with Christ, at that time, they will receive their Glorified Bodies, which is NOT flesh made from the Earth, but will be flesh made from Heaven. The human flesh will NEVER enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus when He walked on the Earth, was in human flesh. When He was crucified and rose from the dead, He was NOT Human. (Human is Earthly) He was as the Angels are, He was in His Glorified body. The flesh that is made from Heaven, not from the Earth. What you are not understanding is there are two different bodies.

1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

The Angels that sat down with Abraham to eat dinner with Him, were NOT HUMAN BEINGS. But they were every bit HUMAN LOOKING. They looked like men, they ate dinner like men, they sat under the tree in the shade like men. When they ate food, they put it into their mouths, chewed it, swallowed it, they ate like men. But they were NOT men, they were NOT human, they were angels, they were SPIRITS that were in their Glorified bodies, Just like we will one day be also when Christ Returns.

Gen 18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
Gen 18:2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
Gen 18:3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
Gen 18:4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:
Gen 18:5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.

Abraham knew one of those MEN, was the Lord, and the two Angles with the Lord, looked like men as well, because Abraham wanted to wash their feet and feed them food. But the Lord and the Angels were NOT HUMAN, they ARE Spirits, The flesh they had was not made from the Earth, but from Heaven, these man looking beings were not HUMANS, they were in their Glorified Bodies, like we too one day will become.

1Co_15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This happens at the time of Jesus Return to the Earth, NOT at the time of death of a person. When are the dead raised according to Scriptures? At the last Trumpet, when Jesus comes. NOT at the time of death.

My point is there are two types of bodies, an Earthly body and a Spiritual Body. Both are made of flesh and bone, both have eyes, mouths, arms, legs, feet, and the such. But one is Earthly, made from the materials from the Earth, and will return to the Earth. The Other is a Spiritual Body, flesh as well, but this flesh is NOT made from the materials of the Earth, but from materials in the Universe. Jesus before His resurrection had a human body, After He had His Glorified Body. We too will one day have this body, but that happens at His Return.

Mat_22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Mar_12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

These Angels are NOT ghosts, spirits as we think spirits to be. NO, they are flesh and bone. And Human being were made in their image, that is to say we look like them. Yet our flesh is made from the Earth, came from the Earth, and will return to the Earth. Theirs is flesh made from Heaven, and is immortal. We falsely view the word spirit to be like a ghost, see-through, transparent. But that is not True. The Lord Jesus and the two Angels that came to visit Abraham before they destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Were in Truth in their Spirit Bodies. (flesh from Heaven)

Responding to post #1526

DiscipleDave · Nov 8, 2015

Ahwatukee said:

You do error, it does not say what you believe it is saying. This is what you read the verse to say:

Ahwatukee 5:8 We are confident, I say, to be absent from the body, is to be present with the Lord.

That is what you see when you read that verse, but what does it actually say.

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

i too am willing rather to be absent from the flesh and be with the Lord. For some reason, you are not willing to look at the words "Willing Rather" i would rather have a million dollars and not be poor, Does not make it the Truth. i would rather have no health issues, does not mean i have no health issues. i too would RATHER be absent from my body, and be with the Lord too. This verse in no way shape or form teaches that when a person dies the ARE with the Lord. To say it is, is to believe something that is false.

Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

i feel the exact same way. Of a Truth, i have prayed to God several times in my life, to take me. i even right now have a desire to depart from the world, to die, to stop living, So i can be with the Lord, which is far better then what i see from this world today, i am vexed daily because of lack of Love in this world today, the sinning, the excuses for their sinning. But it is better for you that i remain, to continue to teach you those things which God has told me to teach. But i desire right now to die and be with the Lord. NOT that i will immediately be with Him if i die right now, but i will sleep until He Returns, to me, it will only feel like a couple of minutes before He is here to get me, because sleep knows no time. Therefore if i die and Christ Returns in a hundred years from now, to me, it will only have been a couple of minutes, because sleeping knows no time. But the verse in no way, shape, or form, teaches that when a person does die, they immediately go to Heaven, that is not what the verse is saying at all. i can say also, i am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: That does not mean that when i die, i AM immediately with Christ. You do error in believing those two verses teaches that you do.

Ahwatukee said:

That is because Paul was taught by the Holy Ghost, even as i have been, and Know there is no time in sleep. A person dies a thousand years ago, will rise when Jesus gets Here, and to that soul, it would be as if it happened as soon as he died a thousand years ago. SLEEP KNOWS NO TIME.

Ahwatukee said:

Sure it does, as long as you omit the first part of what was actually said. You conveniently left out "WILLING RATHER"

i would rather fly like Superman. If you leave out the word "rather" then the statement reads i fly like Superman" Please notice the difference in the next two statements.

Ahwatukee says "to be absent from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord"

Scriptures says "and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Can you see the difference?

DiscipleDave said

Ahwatukee said:

Strange, what preacher does not teach that you immediately go to Heaven when you die? Most all of them teach this doctrine, yet you say you did not receive this doctrine from preachers, you NEVER heard a preacher preach this when you were a kid? when you were younger? NEVER? And now you say you get it from Scriptures, which Scriptures does NOT teach that doctrine, Now there are a couple of verses that SEEM to imply that is the case, but they are exactly that assumptions. So you teach that a person dies they RISE to Heaven, then comes back down to RISE AGAIN but this time in their flesh and blood bodies that has been rotting in the ground. Scriptures teach we rise at His Return, Scriptures teach that we are Changed at His Return. Scriptures teach there is ONLY ONE JUDGEMENT DAY that will determine if a person goes to Heaven or not, and that also is at His Return. My Grandmother who was a Christian died 10 years ago, she is, according to Scriptures, sleeping right now, that is why Jesus called death, sleep. Because that is what they do. She is not awake and in Heaven right now, she is asleep. When Christ returns, is when the Book of Life is opened and if my Grandmothers name is found in the Book of Life, she will at that time awake from Her sleeping, and at that time she will be instantly Changed into her Glorified Body, a body not made of flesh and blood but a body that is made from Heaven. Physical Body, even as the Angels that ate with Abraham had physical bodies. But right now she is NOT in Heaven, she is NOT in Hell. Judgement Day will determine where she will remain for all eternity. AT the time of death DOES NOT determine where they will spend eternity.

Ahwatukee said:

Seriously? plain print it teaches when you die is when you immediately go to Heaven? Seriously? i believe the Word of God and what it says. You have a belief that when you die you immediately go to Heaven or to Hell, You believe this so strongly that you refuse to hear the Truth when it is presented to you. You believe it so strongly that you find Scriptures that SEEM to support that teaching. i have not failed to tell you the Truth in this matter, but if you are not willing to believe Scriptures and what they PLAINLY teach, such as they sleep, and are risen at the time of His Return, then you will continue to hold to the false doctrine that you do, but my hands are clean Brother, i have not told you anything that was not given to me by God.

Ahwatukee said:

sigh... . . . . . The Fifth seal has not yet been opened. Are you suggesting that all those who were slain, are NOW under the alter crying for vengeance? So someone who was killed for Christ a thousand years ago, has been crying to God for vengeance for a thousand years now under the alter? Is that what you believe? The vision John saw during the fifth seal, has not yet happened, and they too are even now asleep, NOT as DiscipleDave says, but as the Word of God teaches.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep(dead), that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (other Scriptures teach this happens when He Returns)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (Rapture) shall not prevent them which are asleep. (DEAD)
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God (7th Trumpet): and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (When do the dead rise according to this inspired by God Scripture? At the Rapture, believe the Scriptures, not what men teach)

So then according to Scriptures, those in Christ SLEEP. you teach contrary to that, you teach they go to Heaven when they die, NOT Scriptural, you only use certain verses that seem to support your own belief that they do go to Heaven, all the while ignoring, making void, all the other verses which teach contrary to that belief. It is only when ALL Scriptures line up with your belief, that you can grasp the TRUTH. They can't sleep and be with Christ at the same time. They don't rise to go to Heaven, only to be risen AGAIN and go to Heaven.

Ahwatukee said:

Are you suggesting that it is not possible they could be awoken for that event, then went back to sleep? Are you saying that is impossible? Scriptures teaches this.

1Sa 28:6 And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
1Sa 28:7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
1Sa 28:8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
1Sa 28:9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
1Sa 28:10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
1Sa 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
1Sa 28:12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
1Sa 28:13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
1Sa 28:14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
1Sa 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
1Sa 28:16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

Did the witch bring Samuel down from Heaven? Can people summon Spirits from Heaven, and look that the Word Samuel uses when He is called "disquieted" Which means = to deprive of peace or rest. So He was disturbed from his rest, sleep. Also pay attention to the wording of what Scriptures says "An old man cometh up" Notice it did not say he cometh down, from Heaven or otherwise.

continued:

DiscipleDave · Nov 8, 2015

Continued:

Ahwatukee said:

Lazarus and the Rich man is a parable. Starts like a parable, sounds like a parable, it is in the midst of the Parables, it is a Parable of Jesus Christ. Is Abraham the FATHER in Heaven? Or was this, in Truth, a parable of Jesus Christ. Yes it is a parable.

Ahwatukee said:

Are you saying that a dead body in the ground, decaying and rotting away to dust, is asleep? Is that what you have to believe in order to believe the Scriptures which teach about sleeping. Can a rock sleep? Can a bone sleep? Can dust sleep? You do error not knowing or understanding the Truth in this matter, and greatly error that you do not see the Truth when it is presented to you. So the Spirit is judged at the time of death and goes to Heaven, and it is the body that sleeps. sleeping is for the living, not the dead. The spirit that is in you, is immortal, it can't die or be killed. When your body dies, the spirit does not die with it. it is the Spirit that sleeps, because the spirit is alive. the flesh does not sleep, it is not alive, it is dust. You do error believing this, and error moreso by teaching this to others.

Ahwatukee said:

lol, i noticed how you rightly said Every single translator has said that. But did not mention the original languages at all, but only those who translated. Well then i could accurately say this as well. "Every single original document of Scriptures does not have the comma" So then according to you all the translators of the original documents Added the comma where they thought it should go. Are you saying it is impossible for those translators to have put it in the wrong spot? is that what you are saying?

Ahwatukee said:

Yes they did, But that has nothing to do with where they are at today, they are sleeping in Christ, and they will be risen first when Jesus appears.

Ahwatukee said:

This is so false, it amazes me. i have seen other things you have posted and you are very knowledgeable and have Truth, then you go and say something like what you say above. :-( Saying such nonsense as it is the dead bodies that sleep, and the spirits go to Heaven. Know you not, because even children understand this, that those that sleep are ALIVE. Sleeping is for the living. When the flesh dies, it is dead and returns to dust from whence it came, it does not sleep, can dust sleep? It is the spirit that sleeps, it is the spirit that is alive. Flesh without the spirit can't live. It is the Spirit that is alive, it is the spirit that sleeps, because it is alive. The flesh does not sleep, as you teach, that is a false doctrine, and there is no Scriptures which teach it is the flesh that sleeps, that is your interpretations, and not what Scriptures teach. The flesh sleeps, what false doctrine is that? it is dung, it is not Scriptural at all.

DiscipleDave said

Ahwatukee said:

lol, are you saying a person who is sleeping is not conscious? You do error not knowing or understanding the Truth, the body does not think, the body is not alive, the body is not conscious, the body is inanimate. it is the Spirit that makes the body alive, it is the Spirit that makes the brain work and thereby to think, it is the Spirit that is conscious, it the Spirit that makes the body live. The body is nothing, and without the Spirit the body is NOT alive, it does not sleep, it does not eat, it does not think. How can i explain this to better understand. Hypothetically speaking, it is like a spirit enters into a statue, the statue then becomes alive, it moves, it walks, it breathes, it speaks, it thinks, it eats. The Statue is alive because of the Spirit that has entered into it. Now when the Spirit separates himself from the statue, the statue is dead, does not move, does not breathe, does not live. Now are you saying the statue is asleep? That is what you are saying. The flesh is nothing more than the statue, clothes that we put on, housing for the Spirit that is within us.

a spirit enters into a flesh, the flesh then becomes alive, it moves, it walks, it breathes, it speaks, it thinks, it eats. The Flesh is alive because of the Spirit that has entered into it. Now when the Spirit separates himself from the flesh, the flesh is dead, does not move, does not breathe, does not live. Now are you saying the flesh is asleep? Sleeping is for the living. the Spirit is alive and it is the Spirit that sleeps, not the flesh, the flesh returns to dust from where it came, it does not sleep, that is what you HAVE to believe in order to keep the doctrine that you are unwilling to give up. lol, the flesh sleeps. When the spirit leaves the body, the body is no longer alive, if it is not alive, it can't sleep. Sleeping is ONLY for the living. When a person dies it is their Spirit that goes to sleep, because it is the Spirit that is alive, their flesh does not go to sleep, the flesh is dead, corrupted, rotting, decaying, dust. The Spirit goes to sleep, it is conscious, it is alive, it is waiting for Jesus to appear to be risen first. You do error not knowing the Scriptures.

Ahwatukee said:

Anyone who teaches the body is what sleeps, does not know or understand the TRUTH. The Body is nothing, it returns to dust, it is not conscious, it does not think, it does not eat, it does NOT SLEEP. It is the Spirit that is conscious, it is the Spirit that sleeps, because it is alive and waiting for the Return of Christ.

Ahwatukee said:

i know i have said this before, and either you think i am lying or just plain ignore it, what i teach is from God Himself. If i lie then i will burn in the lake of fire and brimstone for all eternity as Rev 21:8 clearly teaches. You say it is my teaching, it is not my teaching, it is Gods teaching, i tell you what He has told me. If you do not believe me, then you do not believe Him who told me these things, which i testify and do not lie, that it is from God. If what i teach is contrary to the Word of God then reveal the Scriptures, not what YOU believe to be the Truth, but reveal the Scriptures that show what i teach is contrary to the Word of God.

If then i say that what i teach is from God, it would seem to me a wise person would listen, and if they did not believe it, they would go to the Scriptures and try what is being said. If then you can find one verse that is contrary to what i say is from God, then and only then should you NOT listen to that person. But if what i teach is not contrary to Scritpures, and i testify it came from God, then it would behoove you to hearken to it. If you believe what i teach, you do not believe DiscipleDave, you believe Him who told me these things, which is GOD.

What kind of fate would a person have if they say something is from God and it is not from God, but they are just saying it is from God, What vengeance would God have on such a one, what wrath of God would come upon that person, and not only on that person but that persons family as well? i tell you the Truth, which i testify is from God, yet you do not believe the Truth which He told me. But my hands are clean, i have not failed to tell you what He has told me on this matter, what is it to me if you do not believe Him.

^i^ responding to post 1526

DiscipleDave · Nov 8, 2015

VCO said:

sigh ... .. .. .. . . .. . Should i not believe God? Are you saying that God told me lies? Again, if i have said anything that is contrary to Scriptures, then show what i have said, then show the Scriptures which teach contrary to what i have said. You say what i believe is a lie, yet you have not shown me one thing that i have said that is contrary to Scriptures. Sure you have shown many verses that you interpret to mean what you think is the Truth, that is True, but you have not yet shown one thing that i have said that is contrary to Scriptures, you only show what you believe is the Truth, and then show all the Scriptures that you interpret to back up your own belief.

If then i have said something that you do not believe is True, then show the Scriptures that show what i said is untrue.

Here is the Truth, what i teach is contrary to what this generation believes is the Truth, therefore i am wrong according to what they themselves believe is the TRUTH, based on their own interpretations of the Scriptures. They FAIL miserably to show Scriptures which PROVES that i am wrong, they only believe that i am wrong, based on what they think is the Truth. 1,000 people can tell me i am wrong. But if they can't show me one (1) verse which proves that i am wrong, i will continue to believe the Word of God and what it plainly teaches.

How do you try the Spirits? Well this generation tries them via their own thinking of what they call Truth. In other words
If a person teaches something that is contrary to what they believe is True, then that person is false.

How do you try the Spirits for real? If what is being said contradicts the Word of God, then that person is false. THAT is how you try the Spirits, but no not this generation, they think that a person is wrong because it contradicts what they THINK is the Truth, not that it contradicts Scriptures or not, but that it contradicts their own belief of what the Truth is.

i have said it many many times. If what i teach is contrary to Scriptures, the show the Scriptures. But what do i get instead, NO SCRIPTURES that prove what i said is wrong, but i see all the Scriptures that back up anothers own belief of what they think the Truth is.

If i am a false teacher, if i am listening to false spirits, then show what i have said, then show the Scriptures which prove it to be incorrect. That is how you try the Spirits, by using the Word of God, NOT because it is contrary to what YOU THINK is the Truth.

^i^ responding to post 1528

DiscipleDave · Nov 8, 2015

DiscipleDave said

popeye said:

The Rich man and Lazarus is a parable, not a True event.

If it looks like a parable, starts like a Parable, told in the midst of other parables, it is a Parable.

^i^ responding to post #1529

DP · Nov 8, 2015

DiscipleDave said:

It's not a parable, it's a story example of what happens after flesh death. And even with all the parables Jesus told, the objects He used still involved real literal things. Believing that we are literally 'asleep' in the ground after we die is an OT Jewish idea. Jesus showed us the difference even when He promised the malefactor crucified with Him would be with Him in Paradise.

Ahwatukee · Nov 8, 2015

Yes Dave I agree, but this doesn't happen at the time of death. When a believer dies, the spirit departs and goes to be in the Lord's presence while the body is in the earth decaying. At the time when the resurrection takes place, then all of those who have died in Christ will bodily resurrect, being united with their spirits which Jesus will bring with him. Then immediately after that the believers who are still alive will be changed in a moment into their glorified bodies and be caught up with them, where the whole group is taken back to the Father's house (1 Thes.4:13-18, I Cor.15:51-53, John 14:1-3)

The spirit doesn't sleep at the time of death. The term "Sleeping" is in reference to the "body" only, where the spirit/soul is conscious and aware after death for both the righteous and unrighteous. Otherwise, you have to do what so many others do, which is to distort all of the scriptures that demonstrate conscious awareness of the spirit/soul after death.

You've got Moses and Elijah speaking with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration

you have the event of the rich man and Lazarus

you have the souls under the altar at the fifth trumpet

you have Jesus telling the man next to him "today you will be with me in paradise,"

you have Stephen as he was dying saying "Lord receive my spirit,"

you have Jairus' daughter who was dead and when Jesus took her by the hand it states that her spirit returned to her

you have Paul saying the following:
II Corinthians 5:6-8 –“Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.”

Phil.1:22-24 – “If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.”

Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?” But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it.

You are correct, flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God. At the time of death it is the spirit that departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. By saying that the body does not rise, you are denying the bodily resurrection. When Jesus rose, it was in the same body that he was crucified in in. He proved this by showing his disciples the nail marks in his hands and feet and said, "a spirit does no have flesh and bone as you see I have." Christ's bodily resurrection is a guarantee that all believers will rise bodily as well. During those three days, Jesus spirit was conscious and aware in that place of paradise where Abraham, Lazarus and the rest of the OT saints were, which was that place across from Hades. The bodies of those who have died in Christ will indeed rise at the resurrection.

I never said that this happens at the time of death. I said that at the time of death the spirit departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord, while the body is decaying in the earth. At the resurrection, the body is resurrected and reunited with their spirit which will have been in the presence of Christ.

So, correct me if I am wrong, here is a summary of what we believe:

Dave:
At the time of death: The spirit/soul of the believer sleeps in the dust of the earth, unconscious and unaware

At the resurrection: The spirit rises in a glorified, heavenly body, while the original body remains in the dust of the earth, never to rise again.

Ahwatukee:
At the time of death: The spirit departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord, while the body decays in the earth.

At the resurrection: The body that was buried is resurrected into a glorified, heavenly body and is reunited with their spirit, which has been has been in the presence of Christ since the time of death.

So tell me Dave, what is Paul talking about when he says, "to be present in the body is to be absent from the Lord and to be absent from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord?" He is demonstrating that at the time of death the spirit departs from the body and goes to be in the Lord's presence. This departure of the spirit infers immediacy. Just as Jesus was raised in his original body, which was glorified, so also will those who have died in Christ rise in their original bodies which are upgraded into those glorified, heavenly bodies.

To be clear, if a believer died and was buried the day before the resurrection, if they were to open the casket after the resurrection had taken place, they would find no body. At the resurrection, God is going to regenerate the original bodies of believers, transforming them into glorified, heavenly bodies. After the Lord resurrected, Mary and the other woman didn't find Jesus' body and that because he was walking around in it. He showed his disciples the nail marks and the spear mark in his side as proof that it was he himself. The Jewish leaders knew that the resurrection meant rising in the original body when after Christ was buried, they went to Pilot and as for a guard to make sure that his disciples didn't come and steal the body and then claim that he had resurrected. The Psalms proclaim a bodily resurrection, which says, "you will not abandon me to the grave. You will not allow your Holy One to experience decay." Bodies decay, spirits don't. So, Jesus rose in his original body just as all believers will. But in the mean time, their spirits are in his presence.

DP · Nov 8, 2015

The "spiritual body" Paul taught of in 1 Cor.15 is not a flesh body. It is a 'body' though. It is similar in appearance and likeness as our flesh body we have today, but it is not the same flesh as we have today.

Per Eccl.12:5-7 when our flesh dies, our flesh body of today goes back to the earthly elements where it came from, and our spirit goes back to God Who gave it. Also mentioned there is the "silver cord". So what is that? That Scripture shows if the "silver cord" is severed that is how the two separate parts each go back to where they came from, flesh back to the ground, and spirit back to God.

In Matt.10:28, our Lord Jesus told us to not fear those who can kill our flesh body, but not our soul. That updates the meaning in Eccl.12, showing us that "spirit" also contains our "soul", both having continued existence after flesh death.

Jesus also said in Matt.10:28 to fear God Who can destroy both body and soul in the lake of fire. So what kind of body is that with which one's soul can go into the lake of fire? That body is the "spiritual body" Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15, which he also called the "image of the heavenly" (1 Cor.15:44-49). Paul said as we have borne the "image of earthy", we shall also bear the "image of the heavenly". That is about a heavenly type body, or outward likeness, appearance.

Yet Paul went still further in the Greek of 1 Cor.15:54 about this matter.

1 Cor 15:54
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
KJV

That is actually TWO different changes there Paul mentioned, not just one. They are four separate Greek words.

The change of our body of corruption (flesh) putting on a body of incorruption ("spiritual body") is one change. Then the part he called "this mortal" is another part that must put on "immortality", and that is our soul part. Our "spiritual body" is made up of spirit which gives us our outward likeness-appearance. But our soul is our person, individual, our id if you prefer, and it must put on immortality through Christ Jesus.

Many struggle with this in 1 Cor.15, thinking that "this mortal" part Paul mentioned is also about our flesh body. It is not. It's about our soul part attached to our spirit. It is a direct proof from Apostle Paul that our soul is not yet immortal until this change to our spirit through Christ Jesus happens.

When the wicked-dead are raised, they will not have put on immortality through Faith on Jesus Christ. They will not have the "new creature", "born again" state for their soul. That is how those can be resurrected to the "spiritual body" image but still be subject to perishing in the lake of fire after Christ's "thousand years" reign. Their flesh is not raised, their mortal soul with spirit is what will go into the lake of fire.

Ahwatukee · Nov 8, 2015

The type of body that we receive at the resurrection is not the issue. Jesus rose in the same body that he was crucified in, but as a glorified body, which is how all believers will be resurrected. The issue is that Dave believes that at the time of death, the spirit of a believer sleeps in the dust of the earth and that it is the spirit that is resurrected and changed into a glorified body and that the original body remains in the earth never to rise again. While I am saying that according to scripture, when a believer dies their spirit departs from the body and goes to be in the presence of the Lord, while the body is decaying in the earth. At the time of the resurrection, God will raise the original body of the believer transforming it into that glorified, heavenly body.

The word translated for resurrection is "anastasis" which refers to a bodily, physical, standing up again of the same body.

Strong's 386 anástasis (from 303 /aná, "up, again" and 2476 /hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).

Christ's physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).

[386 /anástasis ("resurrection") refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]

DP · Nov 8, 2015

I do not believe we literally are 'asleep' in caskets in the ground. Our Lord Jesus' flesh body was transfigured to show His resurrection. Our's won't be, as Apostle Paul also covered this point in 2 Cor.5...

2 Cor 5
5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
KJV

1 Cor 15:37
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him, and to every seed his own body.
KJV

Paul used the example of how agricultural seed germinates to show that our "spiritual body" is not the same body as the body that is sown.

DP · Nov 8, 2015

Back to the main topic...

Apostle Paul clearly showed us that Satan is not bound yet...

Eph 6:10-12
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of His might.

11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
KJV

There is no Scripture showing Satan being bound in chains in the abyss until Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20.

VCO · Nov 8, 2015

DiscipleDave said:

Dave, I was not going to check this thread for several days, or weeks, because I am grieving deeply. But something in me told me to check this tonight. My wife's funeral was yesterday, and your theory of "the sleeping spirit" is PURE MALARKEY.

Psalm 146:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] His spirit departs, he {his body} returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.

Revelation 6:9-11 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the people slaughtered because of God’s word and the testimony they had.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] They cried out with a loud voice: “Lord, the One who is holy and true, how long until You judge and avenge our blood from those who live on the earth?”
[SUP]11 [/SUP] So a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer until ⌊the number⌋ would be completed ⌊of⌋ their fellow slaves and their brothers, who were going to be killed just as they had been.

Revelation 7:13-15 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Then one of the elders asked me, “Who are these people robed in white, and where did they come from?”
[SUP]14 [/SUP] I said to him, “Sir, you know.” Then he told me: These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For this reason they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His sanctuary. The One seated on the throne will shelter them:

Zechariah 14:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, and
all the holy ones with Him!

Deuteronomy 33:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] "Indeed, He loves the people; All Your holy ones are in Your hand, And they followed in Your steps; Everyone receives of Your words.

Psalm 89:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] The heavens will praise Your wonders, O LORD; Your faithfulness also in the assembly of the holy ones. {O.T. Saints and N.T. Saints}

Jude 1:14 (NKJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, {a countless number}

I REPEAT: Your theory of "the sleeping spirit" is PURE MALARKEY.

PLEASE, do not try to council someone who is grieving the death of loved one with your stupid theories.

Is the Devil bound right now...?

Is Satan bound right now?

Yes

No

I don't know

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