Is the Devil bound right now...?

ukok102nak · Oct 28, 2015

the greatest history that ever told
But we :dontknow:
When will it happen. ...
Matthew: 24. 21. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25. Behold, I have told you before.
26. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

God bless us all always

:ty:

DiscipleDave · Oct 28, 2015

valiant said:

Reigning over whom? If you are reigning with Christ right now, who are you reigning over?

valiant said:

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Scriptures interprets Scriptures. i understand that you read this verse and what you see is this.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness,"shall reign in life" by one, Jesus Christ.)

When the verse says "the gift of righteousness shall reign" Notice the conjunction word AND in the above verse abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign

So then Grace and righteousness shall reign in life by Jesus Christ. This is confirmed by the verse:

Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 5:17 says the same thing. Scriptures interprets Scriptures.

my point is the verse does not teach we reign in life by Jesus Christ, as you yourself interpret that verse to mean, that verse is saying that Grace AND Righteousnes reigns in life by Jesus Christ, and that is confirmed by other Scriptures.

valiant said:

I am seated with Him in the heavenly places and reigning with Him (Eph 2.5-6).

This is how you see the verses:

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit in heavenly places.

What the Word of God actually says

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Because we are ONE with Him, Through HIM we sit in Heavenly places. NOT that we ourselves sit in Heavenly places, but because we are ONE with Jesus we too also can sit in Heavenly places, because Jesus is in Heaven. Likewise we can talk to the Father also, Not that the Father actually hears us talking to Him, but through Jesus Christ being ONE with Him, the Father hears our petitions, our prayers. But not by our own selves, it takes Jesus to talk to the Father. Just as we do not sit in Heavenly places by our own selves, we do that only In Christ Jesus,through Him do we sit in the Heavenly places, again not as though we ourselves do that. We do not sit in Heavenly places because we are not in Heaven, but we can sit in Heavenly places via Jesus Christ. It is like unto a Dad who did not make the pros, living through His Son who made the pros. The dad is not a pro, but through His son he can be. i hope that does not make it more confusing adding that in.

valiant said:

Are you reigning over known sin? This i do as well, i too have all authority over sin, i do not commit it, i abhor sinning, Sinning is against my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, therefore i do not do it, i do all things to please my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Truly are you reigning over known sin too? Praise God in Heaven, if you are. And if you meant something else, then please explain the "HOW" you are reigning over known sin.

valiant said:

I am exercising mighty powers to bring about Christ's victory in the world (2 Cor 10.4-5).

valiant said:

If Jesus says something, it is done, because He reigns. Are you saying that what you ask in prayer you receive also, because you too reign with Him. Now my prayers are always answered, and i can only remember one time in my life that i asked God for something that i did not get from Him, But i get what i pray for NOT because i reign with Him, but because i live by the Scriptures, and they teach.

1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

i receive of Him, whatsoever i ask of Him, because i keep His Commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in His sight, i do all things to please Him, as i have testified here and other posts as well. Now before those who teach the false doctrine that His Commandments are the 10 commandments, let us continue with the next couple of verses that plainly tells us what His Commandments are.

1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23 And this is his commandment, That we should [1] BELIEVE on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and [2] LOVE ONE ANOTHER, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. To all who read this post >Do YOU keep His Commandments?

valiant said:

Why do you say such a thing? You do not know me at all. i listen to the Word of God 8 hours a day, does that sound like a poor sort of Christian life? i listen to Christian music every once in a while, does that sound like a poor sort of Christian life?
i do what i am called to do, which is to teach those things that He has told me to teach, does that sound like a poor sort of Christian life? i go where i want to, when i want to, and i answer to no one at all, except Jesus Christ. If i need something i buy it, praise God. i have a need for nothing at all, all my bills are paid, i worry about nothing at all, my health is very good, praise God, i talk to people about God, teach His Truths on message boards, i have plenty of food, i do not live paycheck to paycheck, i am always happy, and it is said by others of me, that they can't imagine me be upset or mad, i have a peace that surpasses all understanding, especially when things go wrong, and i should get upset or angry but don't, does that sound like a poor sort of Christian life? You have provoked me to boast of my life, but it is all due to Jesus Christ. i have been celibate for over 8 years, and Truthfully never have been more happy in my whole life. Before there was always a struggle between God and wife, while also dealing with a wife who was not Godly. i love everyone, nice to everyone, even to those who hate me, i am nice to them, which seems to make them hate me even more for some reason. i am even as one who is sitting in a rocking chair on a porch with a slight breeze at sunset, smiling to myself, and looking to the East for my Savior to appear and take me up with Him. The only thing that really bothers me more than anything at all, is knowing the narrow and difficult path that leads to life everlasting, trying to tell those who are on the wide path that leads to destruction, all the while they who are on that broad path claim they are on the narrow path that leads to life. That can be discouraging. Oh also it is discouraging that people of this generation do not believe God speaks audibly to people, He does. Jesus Christ has Blessed me above and beyond even what i can recall, He has been so Good to me, i should write a book of what He has done for me in my life, how He has blessed me above measure. i love Him so much, my life changed, when i gave Him my life. i no longer live my life for me, i live my life for Him, and i love Him, and He LOVES me. Oh how i long to fall down at His feet and worship Him in Person. The creator of the Universe and things in it, oh my!! i am beside myself waiting in anticipation for His Words to me "Well done my Good and Faithful servant" i think i just may pass out after the God of the Universe says that to me, me, a nobody.

But you don't know me at all, if you would have known me, you would also have known Him who lives in me. But this generation does not know or believe the verse which plainly teaches :

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Oh if this generation would repent and believe these verses and what they plainly teach, Change their lives to live a life for Him ONLY. Jesus gave His life for you, should you not give your life to Him in return? But this generation continues to live in sins, because they love to do so. Those who hate to sin will fight it with all their Strength, Power, mind, soul, and they WILL seek Jesus to help them. But those who love to sin, will continue to make excuses for their sinning "flesh is weak" "Do what i don't want to do", "i am Saved no matter what i do", "Everyone sins, every day", and such things they say, so as to NOT have to cease from them. What does the Bible call those who can't cease from sin? Cursed children. And yet many Scriptures plainly teach things like "Awake to righteousness and sin not", and "no longer obey the flesh", and "Go and sin no more", and "Shall we sin that Grace may Abound? and the answer is NO" The entire Word of God teaches us how to, through Jesus Christ, to overcome sinning. Every message to the 7 Churches in Revelation is about those who OVERCOME. Oh if this generation would only believe and live by the Word of God, then they too could have a PEACE that surpasses all understanding, and they too could ask whatsoever they desire and He will give it to them.

DiscipleDave said

valiant said:

Scriptures plainly teach that satan is the god of this world, what kind of god does not run the world he is a god of? satan is the god of this world, because this world is evil and wicked, and most of the inhabitants are such also. Why do you think the wrath of God is coming upon the world? You do not know Jesus if you think Jesus is running the world right now, because if He were running the world, the enemy would be put under His feet, and Jesus would rule the kingdoms of the Earth with a rod of iron, with Power. It is said when Jesus rules on the Earth, if certain kings did not come up to His feasts at Jerusalem that Jesus would cause it not to rain in that entire Kingdom. When Jesus rules, righteousness will abound, NOT evil and wickedness as it is now. Are you telling me that Jesus is Ruling a world that just allowed gays to legally get married, you do error and do not know or understand that satan is the god of this world. Which Scriptures plainly teaches he is, but you do not believe Scriptures do you? You believe your own interpretation of Scriptures. So since you do not believe satan is the god of this world, as Scriptures plainly teach he is, tell me, what is your interpretation of that verses so as to CHANGE that verse to mean something other that what it says.

2Co_4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

So how will you CHANGE that verse to fit into your belief?

valiant said:

You say "JESUS Who is ruler of the kings of the earth" then reference Scripture Rev 1:5. Let us go to Rev 1:5 and see if it teaches what you just said that "Jesus is ruler of the kings of the earth"

Rev_1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

So Scriptures teach that Jesus is the Prince of the Kings of the Earth, but you teach He is Ruler of them, That is not what Scriptures teach, that is what comes from you, and not from God. Do you not see, you yourself have interpreted the word prince to mean Ruler. Scriptures interpret Scriptures, so let us go to Scriptures to learn what the word Prince means.

Act_3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
Act_5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

So then Scriptures teach that Jesus is the Prince of life. And that the Father has made Him a Prince and Savior. So is Jesus a Prince of Kings of the Earth? Sure, He is Prince and Savior (Prince of life) to anyone who will accept Him and believe on Him.

So you say that Jesus is the RULER over those Kings of the Earth, but Scriptures teaches he is Prince of the Kings of the Earth. So you substituted the word Prince to mean Ruler, did you not? Are you aware that Jesus Himself calls satan a Prince.

Joh_14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Joh_16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

So the Apostle Paul plainly taught that satan is the god of this world. Jesus Himself taught that the devil is the Prince of this world. Will you debate with them as well? i say, satan is the god of this world and you disagree, have you not? You teach that Jesus is the God of this world, NOT because that is what Scriptures teach, but because that is what YOU INTERPRET Scriptures to mean, your interpretations are incorrect.

valiant said:

This is True. This does not mean however what you teach, that He rules over them. That teaching comes from you, and not what the Word of God teaches. The Word of God teaches that God appoints the powers that be, it does not teach what you teach, that He is the Ruler of them. God will also appoint the antichrist, does that mean God rules over him as well. What is God going to cause the antichrist to do all that evil that he is going to do? Or does God merely appoint him into office and that is it?

valiant said:

You do error in saying that God controls world history, that is not True, nor is it Scriptural. God did NOT control Hitler to do the evil things that he did. God appointed Hitler into the position that he had, that is True, however it was the god of this world that controlled Hitler. Are you still not understanding that? God does not control history.

Now don't get confused, God is in control of His timeline, His prophesies. For all prophesies must be fulfilled, else God is found to be a liar. Therefore God will alter this or that to facilitate prophesies to come to pass. So even though satan is the god of this world, and the Prince of it, he is not able to alter or change what has already been prophesied, no matter how hard he may try to do so, God will not allow it. All prophesies shall come to pass exactly as God said they would. For example if there is a prophesy that teaches Jesus will reign on Earth, then Jesus will reign on Earth.

continued

DiscipleDave · Oct 28, 2015

continued:

DiscipleDave said

valiant said:

Many verses say and teaches that Jesus will reign on the Earth, the problem is you CHANGE all those verses by your own interpretation, so as to not have to change what you THINK is the Truth. Many Scriptures teach that He will reign on the Earth.

Many verses reveal that He will reign and judge on the Earth, but these also you will interpret away, to fit into your own Truth, your own interpretations. Is the Throne of David in Heaven or on Earth? Is the Tabernacle of David on Earth or in Heaven? The Throne of David has always been on the Earth, the tabernacle of David has always been on Earth. How then will you interpret these verses away and make them void, so as to not have to change your false doctrine?

Isa_9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. Is Jesus upon the Throne of David right now? No. Is His government here now? NO. Is His PEACE never ending right NOW on the Earth? NO. When Jesus does sit upon Throne of David, ON EARTH, then shall the increase of His government and HIS PEACE there shall be no end of them, ever. This has not happened yet, but is a prophesy of what is to come.
Isa_16:5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness. Again yet another verse that teaches Jesus shall sit upon the Throne in the tabernacle of David, which is on EARTH, NOT in Heaven. Will you also discard these verses because they do not line up with your belief?

These are but a couple of verses, there are many, many, many verses which prophesy about the reign of Jesus Christ on Earth, all of them you make void with your own doctrine, that you refuse to let go of. Believe the Scriptures, trust not on your own understanding, which you do a lot.

i asked you in another post to show me one verse that teaches He will NOT reign on the Earth, you have not done this. If then there was one verse in all of Scriptures that taught Jesus does NOT reign on the Earth itself, i would then believe your doctrine that teaches that. But you cannot show that verse, because all of Scripures prophesies of His Return to the Earth, and reigning with a rod of iron, and His Government and Peace there will be no end. Not to mention it is plainly written that we reign ON THE EARTH.

Rev_5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Oh wait, your interpretation is that we are already, right now, reigning as Kings and Priests on the Earth.

sigh... .. . . . .. Kings have subjects to be King over, and you need a Temple to be a priest. So do YOU valiant have subjects to rule over, Has the third Temple been build yet over the Holy of Holies? Christians are NOT reigning on the Earth right now, they are being killed right now, persecuted, and the such, they are NOT reigning as your false doctrine proclaims, And you are so NOT willing to let go of that doctrine, that all the many Scriptures that i have shown unto you, you have not listened to, nor believed, an unteachable spirit will do the same exact thing. Not that is what you have also, only making a reference to what an unteachable spirit will do. It will refuse to hear the Truth when it is presented to them. And this Truth that i have shown unto you, is NOT from DiscipleDave, but is from the Holy Inspired Scriptures. You do not reject what i teach, you are rejecting what the Scriptures teach.

i have said enough to you valiant, to no avail it seems. If you ask me a question i will answer, but i do not think i will reply to everything, especially because i find i a saying the same things over and over again. Love you.

^i^ responding to post 1484

DiscipleDave · Oct 28, 2015

VCO said:

So Valiant, are you saying YOU DO NOT BELIEVE WHAT THE BIBLE LITERALLY SAYS, because you are more intelligent than those who penned the those INSPIRED words?

1 John 5:19 (NRSV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] We know that we are God's children, and that the whole world lies under the power of the evil one.

You mean that does not mean what it says, because you and your teacher are INFALLIBLE; and do not make erroneous interpretations.

CHRIST's earthly reign is in the FUTURE.

Luke 4:5-8 (GW) [SUP]5 [/SUP] The devil took him to a high place and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in an instant.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] The devil said to him, “I will give you all the power and glory of these kingdoms. All of it has been given to me, and I give it to anyone I please.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] So if you will worship me, all this will be yours.”
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Jesus answered him, “Scripture says, ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve only him.'”

WHAT, your wisdom tells you that is another verse that DOES NOT MEAN WHAT IT SAYS?

Acts 13:7-10 (ESV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] He was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, a man of intelligence, who summoned Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But Elymas the magician (for that is the meaning of his name) opposed them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] But Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and said, “You son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, full of all deceit and villainy, will you not stop making crooked the straight paths of the Lord?

AND you say the Devil was not influencing Elymas?

Ephesians 6:11 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Put on the full armor of God so that you can stand against the tactics of the Devil.

SO you think that is no big deal, because you do not believe "THE DEVIL" is free to plan strategies against you?
Therefore, you must also think it is a waste of time to put on the FULL ARMOR OF GOD?

AND YOUR CONCEPT OF SPIRITUAL REIGNING, is just plain twisted sick.

IN REALITY, YOU GET TO GET DOWN OFF THE THRONE OF YOUR LIFE AND WILLINGLY OUT OF LOVE GIVE THAT THRONE TO JESUS CHRIST. Until you can do that, you do not KNOW HIM, you only know about Him.

Valiant will not give up the false doctrine, no matter how many verses you show that PROVES it is a false doctrine. Very sad indeed. It reminds me of the monkeys who slide their hand into the hole of gourd to grab something shiny, and become stuck, trapped, because the monkey is NOT willing to let go of it, the monkey shall surely die, not understanding, all they had to do was let go, and be free.

Very sad indeed.

^i^ responding to post # 1496

DiscipleDave · Oct 28, 2015

Ahwatukee said:

Greetings

Ahwatukee said:

Regarding what Valiant said:

Ahwatukee said:

All that you say above is True.

Ahwatukee said:

This is NOT True, nor is it Scriptural.

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

i too would RATHER die and be present with the Lord, does not make it so though. This verse does not say when you die you are present with the Lord.

Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

i have a desire to die and be with Christ also, this does not mean when i die, i will immediately go to Heaven to be with Jesus.

There are many verses in Scriptures which plainly teach against the doctrine that a person goes to Heaven immediately when they die. This doctrine is NOT found in Scriptures, but is what preachers have been teaching for ages, to console them who have loved ones that have passed on, that they are in Heaven. This though, is not the Truth.

Many Scriptures teach that a Christian that dies, sleeps. Not to mention, there is ONLY ONE Judgment Day that determines where a person will go, and that Day is not the time of death of a person. If you want to see many Scriptures concerning this topic please read this article called Where After Death.

Ahwatukee said:

There is no Scriptures that teaches when a person dies they go to Heaven to be with Jesus, then comes back down to the Earth with Jesus for Judgement Day. Many falsely believe this because of the Verse that says Jesus will be with the Saints when He gathers His Church, that is the Truth, but the Saints that are with Him, are the ones He gathers to Him when He gets here. The Dead Saints will rise to be with Jesus and all the Saints will travel with Him, gathering up the other Saints, who have not bowed down to satan. There is only ONE Judgment Day. And that day is the day Jesus Christ Returns to the Earth to set up His Kingdom on the Earth, out of the New City Jerusalem. Judgment Day is not the day a person dies. Lets say someone dies, How is it determined if that person is Heaven bound or hell bound? Does Scriptures teach that Judgment Day is at the time of death for each and ever person? If then a person dies, and they are judged either as going to Heaven or going to Hell, how is that not judgement Day for that soul? But there is ONLY ONE Judgment Day, and that is the Day Jesus Returns and opens up the Book of Life. Those who are found in it are taken to be with Him at that time, never before that time. If a persons name is found in the Book but they have died 300 years ago, that soul is raised from their sleeping, for the dead rise first. Then all the people who alive at the time Jesus appears, if their names are found in the Book of Life, they are then raised. But neither they who have died in the past, or they that are alive at His Return, will enter with Him, with their flesh and blood. Flesh and blood will not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Please read the article called The Spirit Within to learn more about the spirit that is in you. The Spirit that is in you, is immortal, it can't die or be killed. That is why you (that is your spirit) will either be forever with God or forever without God. The Spirit that is in you existed before you were born in the flesh that you now currently reside in. the flesh is but cloths that we put on. What? Do you think you will look as you do now in Heaven? The Spirit that is within you has it's own look, has it's own name, it existed during the time of the Great War in Heaven, before the Earth was even created. If you want to know what God has revealed to me concerning that war with Lucifer, and the whole reason the Human race was created, read the article called The Meaning of Life.

Earthly bodies is flesh made from the Earth. Glorified bodies is flesh made from Heaven. The dead in Christ will rise first they will awake from their long sleep, howbeit to them it will only feel like minutes, even though centuries have passed, for sleep does not know time. They will awake, rise, and then turn into their Glorified bodies, flesh made from that of stuff in the universe, NOT from the Earth. They will not rise with the Earthly flesh they had when they died. They will rise and regain the bodies they had prior to the Earth ever being created, these are physical bodies, like that of the Angels that ate with Abraham and went into Sodom and Gomorrah. They were physical beings, Angels with physical bodies, that ate a meal with Abraham under the tree. Please read those articles for more information on those topics.

^i^ responding to post #1520

Ahwatukee · Oct 28, 2015

Dave, the above verses are not speaking of resurrection, but of the departing of the spirit of the believer at the time of death. As I said, the only word used to describe resurrection is the word "Anastasis" which always refers to a "Bodily Resurrection." There is no such thing as a spiritual resurrection because as I pointed out, the word only speaks of a bodily resurrection.

Those verses above are not speaking about a bodily resurrection, but the departing of the spirit for the believer at the time of death. Jesus is our example of the bodily resurrection, for the scripture says, "you will not abandon me to the grave. You will not allow your Holy One to see decay." Bodies decay, spirits don't. The example of the bodily resurrection is also demonstrated when Christ appeared to his disciples and they were frightened because they thought they had seen a spirit. But then the Lord said, "it is I myself. Look at my hands and my feet. A spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I have. Regarding the following:

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

These two scriptures most definitely demonstrate that a believer's spirit departs from the body and goes immediately to be in the presence of the Lord, otherwise, why would Paul say that to depart from the body and be with Christ is far better. For one, it would demonstrate that Paul would not being going to sleep in the dust of the earth and the language doesn't allow for a two thousand year gap before being in his presence. The words "to be absent from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord" demonstrates that the spirits departs from the body and is immediate.

It's a good thing for me that I don't get my understanding from preachers then, but from scripture. The above scriptures belong to the word of God, so if you don't mind I will trust in them as being God-Breathed and you can believe in the fairy tale that you just told saying that this doctrine is not in scripture, especially when it is there in plain print!

Also, I think that someone ought to go tell those fifth seal souls under the altar that they can't be conscious and aware, because Dave said they're supposed to be sleeping.

Or someone should have told Moses and Elijah that they shouldn't be speaking with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration because they're supposed to be sleeping.

Both the rich man and Lazarus were said to have died, yet their spirits are described as being in the depths of the earth, conscious and aware, one in paradise and one in Hades, the place of torment. The rich man was having a conversation with father Abraham, with Lazarus at his side and the rich man was/is in torment in flame.

To list another, Jesus told the thief who confessed him, saying, "today you will be with me in paradise". How could they do that if they both died that same day? Simple, their bodies were buried being asleep and their spirits went to that place of paradise where Abraham and Lazarus and the rest of the OT saints were across from Hades.

Now I know that regarding the verse that says, "today you will be with me in paradise" you are going attempt to tell me that the comma is in the wrong place, so I'll save you the reply and that being that it is false. Every single major translator has the comma before the word "today" and not after. And therefore the emphasis is on their spirits being in paradise that very day. Moses and Elijah were not just visions, but were actually speaking with the Lord regarding his coming departure. Also, I know that you are going to say that the event of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable. I heard these circumventions and distortions many times. Just as the scriptures state and the others demonstrate, when the believer dies, their bodies are asleep in the earth and the spirits depart from the body and go to be in the presence of the Lord.

VCO · Oct 28, 2015

Bowman said:

I forgot, you do not read the same BIBLE as I do; you read the Bible translated solely by Bowman, to make it say what he wants:

MY BIBLE SAYS THE FOLLOWING AND I BELIEVE IT:

Revelation 20:1-3 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] He threw him into the abyss, closed it, and put a seal on it so that he would no longer deceive the nations until the 1,000 years were completed. After that, he must be released for a short time.
OR

Revelation 20:1-3 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
[SUP]3 [/SUP] and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
OR

Revelation 20:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
[SUP]3 [/SUP] and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
OR

Revelation 20:1-3 (NIV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

ETC., ETC., ETC.

Revelation 22:18-19 (NIV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

VCO · Oct 29, 2015

DiscipleDave said:

Dave, I am shocked that you bought into the lie that Soul Sleep, includes the human spirit; and I AM NOT EVEN CONVINCED THAT THE SOUL SLEEPS IN THE GRAVE. It may go with the human spirit when it departs.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (ASV)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 4:12 (NKJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Zechariah 12:1 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:

John 3:6 (NKJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and
that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.The Human Spirit is NOT Eternally ALIVE at natural birth, IT IS BORN INTO ETERNAL LIFE AS WE RECEIVE JESUS AS LORD (MASTER), WHICH IS ALL A WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, WHEN HE COMES INTO OUR HEARTS AND POURS THE LOVE OF GOD INTO OUR HEARTS. ref: Rom. 5:5.

The three parts of man that together form one human being are:

BODY = the sum total of all the cells that can be looked at under a microscope.

HUMAN SOUL = the sum total of all the intangible parts of the Human Mind: Psyche, Memories, Thoughts, Emotions, Feelings, Cognitive Abilities, etc.

HUMAN SPIRIT = that part of man that is birthed into eternal life by the Holy Spirit (born again), the part of man that understands spiritual truths, the part that is in tune with will of GOD, and is the part that departs the body upon death.

Psalm 146:3-4 (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Do not put your trust in princes, Nor in a son of man, in whom there is no help.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]His spirit departs, he {his mortal body} returns to his earth; In that very day his plans perish.

If he is saved, his spirit departs to be in the presence of the LORD, however if he is NOT SAVED, his spirit departs to the torment of Hades. The unsaved spirit is functioning, but only in tune with the will of the flesh; while the born again human spirit is functioning only in tune with the will of GOD. YES THE HUMAN SPIRIT THINKS TOO, but when one is NOT born again, it is indistinguishable from the carnal mind, because it only knows the will of the flesh; in other words it is spiritually dead to the will of God.

Colossians 2:13 (GW)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] You were once dead because of your failures and your uncircumcised corrupt nature. But God made you alive with Christ when he forgave all our failures.

NEED MORE PROOF?

Revelation 6:9-11 (HCSB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the people slaughtered because of God’s word and the testimony they had.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] They cried out with a loud voice: “Lord, the One who is holy and true, how long until You judge and avenge our blood from those who live on the earth?”
[SUP]11 [/SUP] So a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer until ⌊the number⌋ would be completed ⌊of⌋ their fellow slaves and their brothers, who were going to be killed just as they had been.

What is significant about being "UNDER THE ALTAR" IN HEAVEN?

Guess where the BLOOD was always poured after the sacrifice? Yes, some was sprinkled on the Mercy Seat, and the REST WAS POURED OUT AROUND THE BASE OF THE ALTAR.

Leviticus 8:15 (ASV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] And he slew it; and Moses took the blood, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about with his finger, and purified the altar, and poured out the blood at the base of the altar, and sanctified it, to make atonement for it.

Revelation 7:13-14 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"
[SUP]14 [/SUP] And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

THUS THE ENTRY POINT TO HEAVEN FOR HUMAN SPIRITS WHO ARE SPIRITS OF US BELIEVERS, AND WE ARE ALL SINNERS, HAS ALWAYS BEEN THROUGH THE BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST THAT WAS POURED OUT AT THE BASE OF THE ALTAR IN HEAVEN.

It pays to study, Jewish practices of the Old Testament, because hidden spiritual truths lie within them.

NO, we do not come back down with JESUS at the Judgement Day.

Our Judgement was PAID IN FULL ON THE CROSS, only our works are Judged to determine if they are worthy of reward.

The Judgement DAY of UNBELIEVERS is AFTER JESUS has reigned for 1000 years from the THRONE OF DAVID in Jerusalem here on earth.

When do we come back with HIM? At His Second Coming, when HE is coming to TAKE HIS RIGHTFUL PLACE AS KING OF THE EARTH RULING FROM THE THRONE OF DAVID:

Luke 1:32 (NRSV)
[SUP]32 [/SUP] He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his ancestor David.

Zechariah 14:2-9 (HCSB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle. The city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women raped. Half the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations as He fights on a day of battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] On that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. The Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley, so that half the mountain will move to the north and half to the south.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] You will flee by My mountain valley, for the valley of the mountains will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Then the LORD my God will come and all the holy ones with Him.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] On that day there will be no light; the sunlight and moonlight will diminish.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] It will be a day known ⌊only⌋ to Yahweh, without day or night, but there will be light at evening.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea, in summer and winter alike.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] On that day Yahweh will become King over all the earth—Yahweh alone, and His name alone.

NOW READ ALL OF REVELATION CHAPTER 19.

1 Thessalonians 3:13 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] so that He may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.

That is O.T. Saints, N.T. Saints, and Tribulation Saints.

See what a little confusion about the false teaching of Soul Sleep has caused you to miss.

Want to learn more? We are actually "Called Out" by the Archangel to go to the Wedding of the Lamb in the New City Jerusalem in Heaven, seven years earlier.

See my THREAD: http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/95283-calling-out-bride-go-wedding-lamb.html

popeye · Oct 29, 2015

Ahwatukee said:

Dave, the above verses are not speaking of resurrection, but of the departing of the spirit of the believer at the time of death. As I said, the only word used to describe resurrection is the word "Anastasis" which always refers to a "Bodily Resurrection." There is no such thing as a spiritual resurrection because as I pointed out, the word only speaks of a bodily resurrection.

Those verses above are not speaking about a bodily resurrection, but the departing of the spirit for the believer at the time of death. Jesus is our example of the bodily resurrection, for the scripture says, "you will not abandon me to the grave. You will not allow your Holy One to see decay." Bodies decay, spirits don't. The example of the bodily resurrection is also demonstrated when Christ appeared to his disciples and they were frightened because they thought they had seen a spirit. But then the Lord said, "it is I myself. Look at my hands and my feet. A spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I have. Regarding the following:

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Php 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

These two scriptures most definitely demonstrate that a believer's spirit departs from the body and goes immediately to be in the presence of the Lord, otherwise, why would Paul say that to depart from the body and be with Christ is far better. For one, it would demonstrate that Paul would not being going to sleep in the dust of the earth and the language doesn't allow for a two thousand year gap before being in his presence. The words "to be absent from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord" demonstrates that the spirits departs from the body and is immediate.

It's a good thing for me that I don't get my understanding from preachers then, but from scripture. The above scriptures belong to the word of God, so if you don't mind I will trust in them as being God-Breathed and you can believe in the fairy tale that you just told saying that this doctrine is not in scripture, especially when it is there in plain print!

Also, I think that someone ought to go tell those fifth seal souls under the altar that they can't be conscious and aware, because Dave said they're supposed to be sleeping.

Or someone should have told Moses and Elijah that they shouldn't be speaking with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration because they're supposed to be sleeping.

Both the rich man and Lazarus were said to have died, yet their spirits are described as being in the depths of the earth, conscious and aware, one in paradise and one in Hades, the place of torment. The rich man was having a conversation with father Abraham, with Lazarus at his side and the rich man was/is in torment in flame.

To list another, Jesus told the thief who confessed him, saying, "today you will be with me in paradise". How could they do that if they both died that same day? Simple, their bodies were buried being asleep and their spirits went to that place of paradise where Abraham and Lazarus and the rest of the OT saints were across from Hades.

Now I know that regarding the verse that says, "today you will be with me in paradise" you are going attempt to tell me that the comma is in the wrong place, so I'll save you the reply and that being that it is false. Every single major translator has the comma before the word "today" and not after. And therefore the emphasis is on their spirits being in paradise that very day. Moses and Elijah were not just visions, but were actually speaking with the Lord regarding his coming departure. Also, I know that you are going to say that the event of the rich man and Lazarus is a parable. I heard these circumventions and distortions many times. Just as the scriptures state and the others demonstrate, when the believer dies, their bodies are asleep in the earth and the spirits depart from the body and go to be in the presence of the Lord.

The rich man and Lazarus,as you pointed out indicates we do go immediately to heaven/hell

popeye · Oct 29, 2015

Jesus gave us the keys to the kingdom.

"whatsoever you prohibit,I prohibit. ....and what you release/allow,I allow...."

Our level of victory is determined through embracing his word,knowing it,and acting on it.

What we "put up with" will hinder and weaken the entire church.

Binding/loosing is a powerful tool.

Only a believer that has knowledge,courage,and is known in heaven can wield that sword.

I am appalled ,at this late hour,this truth is not only resisted,but is actively moved upon to destroy what Jesus did to deposit it in us,specifically to build his kingdom and keep the weeds out of the garden.

Why seek weakness,or to disarm the body of Christ?

VCO · Oct 29, 2015

popeye said:

Popeye, I have to disagree with you:

Matthew 13:24-30 (NKJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field;
[SUP]25 [/SUP] but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.
[Tares are a weed that looks almost identical to wheat while growing, but when the head forms, (the fruit) it becomes very obvious that it is a weed and not wheat. "By their fruit you will know them."]
[SUP]26 [/SUP] But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] So the servants of the owner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'
[SUP]28 [/SUP] He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, 'Do you want us then to go and gather them up?'
[SUP]29 [/SUP] But he said, 'No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.
[SUP]30 [/SUP] Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn." ' "

The lessen here is giving us REASONS TO LEAVE UNBELIEVERS SITTING ON OUR PEWS.

WHY?

He mentions one very good reason here. I grew up on a farm in Nebraska where I had to walk the wheat fields in the spring to pull the weeds out by hand, such as Cockle-burs, Sunflowers, etc. We got a lower price per bushel if there were weed seeds mixed in with the wheat. Every time I pulled up a Weed, mixed in with that clump of dirt around the weed roots, I noticed there were usually 3-5 little wheat plants. The lesson is if you pull up an unbeliever (a weed) and order him out of your church, you will inevitably you will see three to five of his immature Christian buddies leave with him.

NOW there is a ANOTHER reason why we tolerate "weeds" or hypocrites sitting in out pews:

Romans 10:13-14 (NKJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD {Submits to his lordship willingly out of love.}
shall be saved."
[SUP]14 [/SUP] How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

Romans 10:17 (HCSB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the message about Christ.

IT IS NOT OUR JOB TO SEPARATE THE TARES FROM THAT WHEAT, THAT WILL BE DONE BY THE HARVESTER ANGELS. OUR JOB IS TO JUST TELL THE TRUTH ABOUT JESUS CHRIST TO ALL UNBELIEVERS WHO WILL LISTEN. IF THEY ARE SITTING IN OUR PEWS, LONG ENOUGH THEY JUST MAY BECOME GENUINE CHRISTIANS. OUR LORD IS IN THE BUSINESS OF CHANGING TARES INTO WHEAT. YOU FORGET WE WERE ONCE TARES, BEFORE WE RECEIVED HIM AS LORD.

Colossians 1:21-22 (NKJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
[SUP]22 [/SUP] in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight--

Romans 5:10-11 (NKJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Bowman · Oct 31, 2015

VCO said:

And I saw a Messenger coming down out of Heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a great chain on his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the old serpent who is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, and threw him into the abyss, and shut him up, and sealed (esphragisen) over him, that he should not still lead astray the nations, until the thousand years are fulfilled. And after these things, he must be set loose a little time. (Rev 20.1 – 3)

‘Esphragisen’ occurs in only two other locations outside of Rev 20.3, as thus…

The One having come from above is above all. The one being of the earth is earthy, and speaks of the earth. The One coming out of Heaven is above all. And what He has seen and heard, this He testifies, and no one receives His testimony. The one receiving His testimony has sealed (esphragisen) that God is true. For the One whom God sent speaks the Words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure. The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. (John 3.31 – 35)

And, again here…

Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give to you; for God the Father sealed (esphragisen) this One. Then they said to Him, What may we do that we may work the works of God? Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that you believe into Him whom that One sent. Then they said to Him, Then what miraculous sign do You do that we may see and may believe You? What do You work? Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, as it is written "He gave them bread out of Heaven to eat." Then Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Moses has not given you the bread out of Heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread out of Heaven. For the bread of God is He coming down out of Heaven and giving life to the world.(John 6.27 -33)

The contextual usage of ‘esphragisen’ is exquisitely clear in scripture and ALWAYS refers to Jesus and His descending from Heaven.

But...you would rather ignore the scriptures in favor of reducing Jesus' divinity down to that of a 'special angel'.

Wake up:

Jesus cast Satan from Heaven.

Jesus cast Satan into the abyss.

Your bottom-feeding pathetic attempts to strip Jesus of His rightful deity, applying it to a mere creature, and then give unscriptural authority to Satan....is....well....complete blasphemy of the highest order.

Ahwatukee · Oct 31, 2015

First of all, you claim the above while ignoring the context. John has seen Jesus in his glorified state in Rev.1:12-16, then he sees him as the Lamb looking as though he had been slain, then he sees him on a white horse descending to the earth to end the age in Rev.19:11-21. That being said, Rev.20:1 says, "I saw 'an angel coming down out of heaven'". The fact that John had seen the Lord and given those other descriptions of him demonstrates that he know who the Lord is and what he looks like. Yet here in Rev.20:1 John does not use any of those previous descriptions of Christ. Therefore, the description of "an angel coming down out of heaven" is an unidentified angel and that because his name is not mentioned. So, you are basing your claim of that angel being Christ based on a word while ignoring the context.

Katabaino: go down, come down, either from the sky or from higher land, descend

The above is the word used in Rev.20:1 for that angel "coming down". Also, you keep using the word "messenger" which is correct, but the context bares out what type of messenger he is, which is a heavenly one, ergo, a heavenly being, an angel. Therefore, no where does the scripture state that Jesus is the one who is casing Satan into the Abyss, but an unknown angel that God will send to thrown him into the Abyss and lock and seal it over him.

Also, in many other posts you and your amil friends have attempted to claim a passive binding of Satan which supposedly took place at the Lord's crucifixion, of which no binding is mentioned. What it does say is "And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross". As you and everyone can see, nothing is mentioned about Satan being bound in the Abyss in that scripture, that is unless you wave your magic amil wand. Furthermore, the way in which Christ made a public spectacle of the powers of darkness, was that he met the righteous requirements of the law which gave sin it's power and which was/is ammunition for the powers of darkness, and then he paid the penalty for our sins. He disarmed them by taking away their ammunition which was the law.

You have also been claiming that Satan has been somewhat stripped of his power, yet he has the same power that he has always had. It is only against those who believe in Christ that he has lost power over and that because believers are no longer under the law, for the law brings wrath for those who are still trying to keep it, as well as for those who do not receive Christ, for they are still under the condemnation of the law. Yet scripture shows that Satan is presently the one ruling the earth:

"We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them. We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one" (1 John 5:19)

Therefore, Satan's abilities have only changed regarding true believers, that is, that we are no longer under the law which we couldn't keep, but the rest of the world is under his full control.

Cassian · Nov 1, 2015

Ahwatukee said:

You are faced with two problems in your theology. You have first usurped a text, which generally is not used to show the binding of Satan by Christ, for a false theory known as premillennialism.

Because of that you cannot understand what the binding of Satan actually, scripturally consists. Your description of Col 2:14-15 is stated correctly, but that is ONLY one-half of what Christ accomplished and it is the piece you missed that is the actual binding of Satan. That is death. Christ needed to die, suffer our condemnation, in order to raise our mortal natures to life. It is the victory of Christ over Satan and His power of death that binds him. Satan lost absolute power over death, Heb 2:14-17 and is stated generally in I John 3:8. When you tie that in with the direct statements in the Gospels where Jesus states that He needs to bind the strongman and take his spoils, meaning entering Hades and freeing the captives held there BY DEATH.

Thus the binding of Satan has all to do with defeating Satan and his power of death. It has absolutely nothing to do with any activity of Satan on this earth.

Since Revelation is divided into seven sections, and each section describes the period between advents, Rev 20:1 is the beginning of a section and describes the beginning of His first advent. It describes His overcoming death, physical death, binding Satan, so that the Church can be called out which is shown by those entering by baptism, the first resurrection. Those who did not believe never participated in the first resurrection, thus they will be subject to the second death. By verse 13 you have the resurrection of all the dead, and the judgment. No earthly reign follows but eternity. Christ presents the Church, the Bride to God and eternity begins. There is no earthly reign mentioned anywhere in Rev, surely not in Rev 20.

What is more striking is that the premillennialists begins the theory with Rev 20 and the use of the literal 1000 years, but if it was actually a scriptural teaching one would think that such things as the rapture; the establishment earthly regime; a bodily reigning on the throne of David; or the Jews being regathered to Palestine would be included.
All of these elements are vitally important to the millennial view, yet they are conspicuously absent from this narrative! In fact they are absent in Revelation.

Ahwatukee · Nov 1, 2015

Excuse me, but I have the clear print of scripture right here. Now if you can put aside the pre-packaged amilennial teaching on this and just read the verse, then you will understand it. But, until you put aside that teaching, the brain-washing will continue to kick in which is why can't even read a simple verse and understand its meaning:

"And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended."

The above scripture should be very simple to understand if you read it at face value.

* An angel is coming down out of heaven

* He has the key to the Abyss and a great chain in his hand

* The angel seizes the dragon who is identified as Satan

* The angel throws Satan into the Abyss and locks and seals it over him where he remains for a literal thousand years

If you would read the verse at face value, you would come to the same conclusions that I listed in asterisks. My conclusions reflect exactly what the scripture states, yours don't. There is no spiritualizing of the Abyss, as it is a literal place mentioned in other parts of scripture and is shown to be under the earth, the thousand years is literal as there is nothing in the context that would lead the reader to believe otherwise, the binding of Satan in the Abyss is literal which is what will keep him from being able to deceive the inhabitants of the earth, the thousand years is literal as it is the same amount of time that Jesus will be ruling.

Please show us the where Col. 2:14-15 where it is stated that Satan is bound in the Abyss for a thousand years. Here are the two actual scriptures:

"And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross".[/quote]

"And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended."

Now, does the fist scripture say anything about Satan being bound for a thousand years in the Abyss? The only way that you can make it say that is by distorting the scripture and because it doesn't saying anything about Satan being bound. In fact, his name isn't even specifically mentioned as it is in Rev.20:1-3. Neither is the word "Abyss" mentioned anywhere in Col.2:14-15. Jesus disarmed the powers and authorities by fulfilling the law which was against us bringing wrath upon us and by paying the penalty for our sins. Regarding your claim of Satan currently being bound and not having any power, I see that you conveniently left the scripture that I provided unanswered. So, here it is again:

We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them. We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one"

Now, instead of scrambling to find an apologetic and a circumvention for what is in bold above, which demonstrates that Satan is not bound, why not just believe what it says? And why not believe what Rev.20:1-7 says? As long as you continue to apply the amillennial interpretation you will never understand the simple meaning of scipture.

VCO · Nov 1, 2015

Bowman said:

WE BE BELIEVE WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS; and YOU BELIEVE SOMETHING IT DOES NOT SAY.

Revelation 22:18-19 (NKJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
[SUP]19 [/SUP] and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Revelation 12:9 (NKJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 20:1 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Revelation 20:1 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.

Revelation 20:1 (ASV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.

Revelation 20:1 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Revelation 20:1 (HCSB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the abyss and a great chain in his hand.

Revelation 20:1 (NRSV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain.

Revelation 20:1 (ESV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain.

Revelation 20:1 (NIV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.

Revelation 20:1 (BBE)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key of the great deep and a great chain in his hand.

Revelation 20:1 (GW)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key to the bottomless pit and a large chain in his hand.

Revelation 20:1 (NET)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then I saw an angel descending from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the abyss and a huge chain.

Revelation 20:1 (AMP)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] THEN I saw an angel descending from heaven; he was holding the key of the Abyss (the bottomless pit) and a great chain was in his hand.

Revelation 20:1 (MontgomeryNT)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, with the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Revelation 20:1 (Darby)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And I saw an angel descending from the heaven, having the key of the abyss, and a great chain in his hand.

Revelation 20:1 (ISV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key to the bottomless pit and a large chain in his hand.

Revelation 20:1 (MaceNT)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Afterwards I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit, with a great chain in his hand.

Revelation 20:1 (NJB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then I saw an angel come down from heaven with the key of the Abyss in his hand and an enormous chain.

Revelation 20:1 (NLT)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the bottomless pit and a heavy chain in his hand.

Revelation 20:1 (WesleyNT)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] And I saw an angel descending out of heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit, and a great chain in his hand.

Revelation 20:1 (WEY)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then I saw an angel coming down from Heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit, and upon his arm he carried a great chain.

WE BE BELIEVE WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS; and YOU ADD AND SUBTRACT WORDS SO THAT YOU CAN BELIEVE SOMETHING IT DOES NOT SAY.

Bowman · Nov 1, 2015

Clinic time...

Ahwatukee said:

You keep digging your grave in sheer scriptural ignorance.

According to you, John should have already known what Jesus 'looks like' early on in Revelation, since you believe that it is sequential....but then you completely and utterly ignore these two passages which occur at the END of Revelation, as thus...

And I fell before his feet to worship him, but he said to me, Behold! Stop! I am a fellow-slave of yours, and of your brothers, having the testimony of Jesus. Worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. (Rev 19.10)

And I, John, was the one seeing and hearing these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel showing me these things. And he said to me, Behold! Stop! For I am your fellow-slave, and of your brothers the prophets, and of the ones keeping the Words of this Book. Do worship to God. (Rev 22.8-9)

So...

Please explain to us how John should have known what Jesus 'looks like' LONG before he attempts to worship an angel, not once, but twice, and is rebuked for it!!!

You just completely solidified my position that John knew Jesus as a Messenger!

Snap out of your coma....

Bowman · Nov 1, 2015

More clinic time...

Ahwatukee said:

More hypocrisy on your part.

You keep claiming context, context, context, and then you build your entire world view upon one, single solitary passage....which is what cults and followers of islam do.

I even showed you where the term in question occurs outside of your pet-scripture....and you turn away from the two examples and run.

Fact is, the usage of the term in Rev 20 always has Jesus as the subject elsewhere in scripture, complete with Jesus descending from Heaven.

Deal with it...

The One having come from above is above all. The one being of the earth is earthy, and speaks of the earth. The One coming out of Heaven is above all. And what He has seen and heard, this He testifies, and no one receives His testimony. The onereceiving His testimony has sealed (esphragisen) that God is true. For the One whomGod sent speaks the Words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure. The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. (John 3.31 – 35)

And, again here…

Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give to you; for God the Father sealed (esphragisen) this One. Then they said to Him, What may we do that we may work the works of God? Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that you believe into Him whom that One sent. Then they said to Him, Then what miraculoussign do You do that we may see and may believe You? What do You work? Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, as it is written "He gave them bread out of Heaven to eat." Then Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Moses has not given you the bread out of Heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread out of Heaven. For the bread of God is He coming down out of Heaven and giving life to the world.(John 6.27 -33)

Ahwatukee · Nov 1, 2015

Re: Clinic time...

As I said before, John knew who Jesus was. In the scripture above, John is bowing down to the angel knowing that he is an angel and because he is in awe of the information that the angel has been showing him and not because he thinks that the angel is Jesus. John tells us himself that he knows that it is an angel when he says, "I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me." How is that you guy's try to go after the most obscure things to try and prove your positions? You have proved nothing at all. I solidified nothing. As I said and as scripture supports, John is falling down at the feet of the angel knowing that he is an angel and not because he thinks that he is Christ and he says so.

Ahwatukee · Nov 1, 2015

Re: More clinic time...

Not everything requires going to other scriptures in order to understand what the scripture is saying. For example, no one needs to go look through the rest of scripture to find out what a thousand years means, which is what you erroneously do. Regarding context, you are correct and I will continue to proclaim the necessity of it. You on the other hand obviously don't understand what context means. It is the other words within a particular scripture that support the passage and clarify its meaning. Context is found within the same verse, not outside in other verses.

Is the Devil bound right now...?

Is Satan bound right now?

Yes

No

I don't know

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