LORDSHIP SALVATION

[P1LGR1M]

Jesus is lord. You are very mistaken on this one.

Your post has stuff in it that is scaring me.




Romans 14:8-9 (NKJV): “For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. For to this end Christ died, and rose and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.”

Philippians 2:9 Paul said, “Therefore God has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven and those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father” (2:9-11 NKJV).

It should scare you, but not for the reasons you imply here.

So you believe...


1. Men can be saved apart from repentance;

2. Jesus is Lord of all (which implies unbelievers, so let's distinguish between the Sovereignty of God and those that actually belong to Him);

3. There is no distinction between sons of God and the sons of the devil.


These are addressed in my post, so would you please clarify that which I said scares you?

If you are going to call me in error, and imply I ma teaching something that is false and unbiblical, the least you could do is put a little more effort onto it than just levying a charge.

So clarify...you believe the three things listed above?

That should indeed scare you, and furthermore...drive you to God with a repentant attitude. God and His Word does not support Liberal Theology, nor does His Word divorce repentance from salvation before or after we are saved.

So get busy.

If you need some help on how to properly quote, just let me know. I'll be more than happy to help you with that.


God bless.

 

[Gr8grace]

You just posted a verse which shows without question that one can be a disciple and not be saved:


John 6:66

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]66 [/SUP]From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Show us the verse that says HIS disciples that walked no more with Him were unsaved or lost salvation.

Now let's look at the Great Commission again:


Matthew 28:18-20

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

[SUP]20 [/SUP]Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


The difference between discipleship and salvation is that discipleship does not prove salvation and salvation is not lacking in obeying Christ's commands.

If I say I am teaching someone to drive does this mean that I am saying "They know how to drive?"

So too, if one says "We do not have to have obedience to all things Christ taught" are they not denying the very Word of Christ?

They are.

And while the greater burden of this command is on those who are going out, where we clarify those being taught are going to be at varying levels of having learned, we still can in no way divorce the repentance Christ taught that is always associated with true faith.

I have given the Biblical definitions of repentance in numerous posts, and yet no-one has shown me where those defnitions are being given in a false or erroneous context within the bounds of the focal point.

I stand by this statement:


[/I]
[/COLOR]Pottersclay rightly states the result of the salvation taught in Scripture, and those who teach No-Lordship deny that which Pottersclay testifies to. Salvation in Christ does convert, and part of that conversion is the recognition of sin for the first time in our natural lives and being grieved over it and the inevitable consequences of sin, which is eternal judgment.

Only God can impress the reality of Hell on the natural man, and there is not one among us that can in honesty state that they had no fear of eternal judgment when they turned to the Savior.

Be glad to hear that testimony, though, if someone would care to provide it. I think that would make a great contribution to the Lordship/No-Lordship Salvation Controversy.


God bless.

We cannot do anything that the Lord commands us to do without the Holy Spirit, He does the work through us.And He was TEACHING them to follow his commands( So they were not doing and didn't know)

So was he teaching them the commands to earn their salvation through their flesh or were they already saved being prepared for good works?

And if(and they are) they were already saved and didn't follow these commands(that they didn't know and were not following at the time/He was teaching them.) are they going to lose their salvation?

The Lord Jesus Christ doesn't and in reality can't command an unbeliever to follow Him. We need the Holy Spirit to work through us.

So in the great commission, these have to be saved believers. They need the Spirit to do these commands. So if they don't follow these commands..............they lose their salvation?

 

[Gr8grace]

Could you show me where Christ reveals the Gospel to anyone? There are occasions, but I wonder if you would just post them to support your view.

And can you tell me where Christ has a focus on people changing their mind about Him here...


Matthew 9:13

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]13 [/SUP]But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Show me from the original language that "to repentance" is in that verse.

Or how this...


Luke 18:9-14

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.


[SUP]14 [/SUP]I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.



Isn't Christ teaching about repentance?

Yep. The subject(Sinner) changes their mind about how they receive mercy(Christ.)

He didn't beat on his chest because he "felt" sorry for his sins. He recognized he was a sinner and recognized that Christ has mercy on sinners.

but Scripture does not limit a definition of repentance to changing our minds about Who Christ is.

This is very true. And this is the key to this debate. In the sense of salvation and eternal life, the scripture limits this definition to one word and one meaning.

When it comes to salvation and eternal life, metanoeo (change your mind)Is always used. It is a transitive verb so it MUST have a subject and object either stated or implied.

And when it comes to salvation the subject is ALWAYS the sinner and the object is ALWAYS Christ.

It is NOT the sinner and his sins for salvation. It is the sinner and Christ for salvation.

metamellomai: change your emotion, regret; translated repent.Is NEVER used in the sense of salvation.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

I was going to respond to this on each point but decided not to.

You need to read the thread instead of bearing false witness as others in this thread have done.

It is quite clear your a re not a student if you do not understand (1) that a definition is not limited to that which you insist it is (and you can verify this by taking a look at a dictionary which gives examples of defining by context) and (2) you think you can build a case by cherry-picking a singular element of a passage or discussion.

Repentance is defined by the post, and as I said before you can read the posts dealing with repentance which precede it.

Your studies seem to suffer from tunnel vision.



God bless.

while it is true that you can define a term contextually by giving examples...you have not done that either...

you have not given any examples of actual repentance...only examples of repentance being urged or commanded...

your inability or unwillingness to define the simple term 'repentance' is actually key to your false doctrine of 'lordship salvation'...in lordship salvation 'repentance' is a chameleon word that means whatever you want it to mean...you can arbitrarily assume a standard for 'repentance' in which you are repentant while most others are not repentant...

the end result is what i noted earlier...self righteousness...

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

And I see now why you have tunnel vision:

Rachel

**i usually stop posting in threads that get longer than ten pages**​

Amazing.


God bless.

the reason i have that personal policy is because threads tend to get longer than ten pages for one of two reasons...

either the issue is by nature unresolvable and therefore impossible to settle by discussion or debate...or else one or more of the thread participants are simply incorrigible and will not be convinced by either scripture or reason to change their view making further discussion or debate useless...

in the case of this thread which has gone for longer than ten pages it is seeming more and more like the latter is the case and that the 'lordship salvation' proponents are the guilty party and therefore a waste of verbiage...

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Yupp, lol, and she fibbed about that cuz I've seen her posting on threads MUCH longer than ten pages.. lol

that is why it says 'usually' and not 'always'

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

One thing that gets overlooked quite often is that "repent" is a transitive verb. It has an object and a subject.

To repent for salvation? the object is Christ and the subject is a SINNER.

The Subject(sinner) changes their mind about the object(Christ.)

Repent is simply, a SINNER changing their mind about who THE Christ really is.
Mark 1:5~~Mark 1:15 (NASB95)15 and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”



Here is an instance of a SINNER changing their mind about their SIN and not the SON.
Matthew 27:3 (NASB95)
3 Then when Judas, who had betrayed Him, saw that He had been condemned, he felt remorse(repented) and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

thank you for demonstrating what a definition of 'repentance' looks like...

i could also post a definition of repentance either dictionary style or made up of scriptural examples...

but it is important that p1lgr1m give -his- definition of repentance since repentance is so central to his doctrine of 'lordship salvation' and therefore the definition of this word is key to evaluating the doctrine...

however as i observed in a previous post it appears that he is unwilling or unable to provide a definition of 'repentance'...and i contend that a nebulous non definition of repentance is necessary for 'lordship salvation' teaching to produce its intended result...namely self righteousness and elitism in the teacher...

 

[Angela53510]

Woe! Who knew how wrong the KJV was for Matt 28:18-20

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matt 28:19-20 KJV


"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” Matt 28:19-20 ESV

First, no repentance is actually mentioned in the text, in any language, including the Greek, although I would say the "teaching" or "making disciples" covers it.

And before all the KJV people get mad at me, I was joking about how wrong the translation was!! Only a sight error! LOL

In fact, the Greek uses the word μαθητεύσατε or mathateusate, which is an aorist, imperative active. It means "to make a disciple." It comes from the same root word as "disciple."

"πορευθέντες οὖν μαθητεύσατε πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, βαπτίζοντες αὐτοὺς εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος,20 διδάσκοντες αὐτοὺς τηρεῖν πάντα ὅσα ἐνετειλάμην ὑμῖν· καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ μεθ’ ὑμῶν εἰμι πάσας τὰς ἡμέρας ἕως τῆς συντελείας τοῦ [c]αἰῶνος." Matt.28:19-20 Greek

So the command, in the original language is to MAKE DISCIPLES! So any nonsense about disciples not being saved really does this text injustice.

 

[Stephen63]

Wow, P1LGR1M..... (1)using a scripture to prove what repentance is, & (2)at the same time using the same scripture to show these "unrepentant christians" how they really are (the pharisee), & (3)without them knowing it, proving their spiritual blindness. Talk about killing three birds with one stone.....

 

[P1LGR1M]

Show us the verse that says HIS disciples that walked no more with Him were unsaved or lost salvation.

First, salvation cannot be lost. The problem you are having is trying to impose false arguments into what is being discussed here.

Secondly, not one of the disciples were "saved" according to New Covenant conditions, because the New Covenant was not yet established. That would be established through the Cross, and the Church would be built with the Coming of the Comforter and the beginning of the eternal indwelling of God and the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel to mankind.

Third, this does not mean that they were not disciples.

Here is the Scriptural evidence that being a "disciple" of Christ does not mean one is saved:


Matthew 10

King James Version (KJV)
1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.


So now explain why you have a problem with someone being shown as a disciple yet turning away from Him?

We cannot do anything that the Lord commands us to do without the Holy Spirit, He does the work through us.And He was TEACHING them to follow his commands( So they were not doing and didn't know)

While I agree when it comes to ministry the Lord does empower and work through us, but that doesn't negate many passages that teach the responsibility of the believer to live holy before Holy God.

The Bible teaches...


1 Peter 1:16

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]16 [/SUP]Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.


The No-Lordship Salvation Movement teaches...


"Let go and let God."

As though Christians are weak, floundering infants incapable of maintaining self control in regards to sin.

So was he teaching them the commands to earn their salvation through their flesh or were they already saved being prepared for good works?

We are not talking about how one is saved, we are speaking about our walk with God after we are saved.

And the focus is whether or not one can be saved and live for the devil.

This is an attack on the Sovereignty of God, because Scripture teaches we are created in Christ Jesus unto good works, not by them. The No-Lordship Movement teaches no such good works need be imposed into salvation, one can be saved and not evidence good works in their lives, and shame on the person that dares question someone's salvation if their lives do not evidence conformity to Christ and His Word.

And if(and they are) they were already saved

They weren't. They were not born again believers, they were Old Testament Saints prior to Pentecost.

This is why they were unbelievers in regards to Christ's Resurrection prior to Pentecost, and preaching the Resurrection after Pentecost.


Mark 16:14

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]14 [/SUP]Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

and didn't follow these commands(that they didn't know and were not following at the time/He was teaching them.) are they going to lose their salvation?

Again, you are arguing something I have not suggested, which is kind of the point.

You are thinking Lordship Salvation teaches salvation by works when we are not discussing how a person is saved, but looking at the evidences of salvation in the lives of professing believers.

Repentance, for example, is not a work which men do in salvation, it is something generated by the Holy Spirit as He enlightens the natural mind to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is a result, not a work.

Ever watched a movie that made you cry? Did you cry because you sat there and thought, "Boy, this is sure sad, I think now is an appropriate time to shed a few tears."

No, the tears were a result, or, reaction to something. So too with salvation repentance is the result or reaction to understanding our condition. And only God can make the natural mind understand that condition, and He does this through conviction of sin, righteousness, and judgment.

The Lord Jesus Christ doesn't and in reality can't command an unbeliever to follow Him.

On the contrary, that command has gone out to the whole world.

Who is excused from obedience to God? Are you saying that there are people in this world who can do what they want? They can take or leave the revelation of God (whether it is the internal witness, the testimony of Creation, or direct revelation) and there are no consequences?

We need the Holy Spirit to work through us.

This is true, but, you are teaching something that Scripture does not...that the only works available are those which the Lord does through us.

This is why Paul wrote...


Ephesians 5:17-19

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;



Can we only do this if the Lord works through us?

So in the great commission, these have to be saved believers.

They won't be "saved" according to New Covenant conditions until not many days after this command is given.

Here is how they will be able to go out and preach, teach, and make disciples of Christ:


Acts 1:8

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


They had not yet received the Baptism with the Holy Ghost at the time they are commanded to go out and preach.

Here is another pre-Baptism conversation:


Luke 22:31-33

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

[SUP]32 [/SUP]But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

[SUP]33 [/SUP]And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.


Now was Peter ready to go to prison and death? We know he was not, but fought to keep the Lord from the Cross and when that failed...denied he even knew Christ.

They need the Spirit to do these commands.

To preach the Gospel, yes, I agree completely.

Doesn't mean they were no disciples before conversion.

Doesn't mean that those who departed from Christ were not disciples...


John 6:66

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]66 [/SUP]From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

So if they don't follow these commands..............they lose their salvation?

I have never intimated that believers who are disobedient "lose their salvation," though I have said on numerous occasions they can...lose their physical lives (though not in this thread):


1 Corinthians 11:28-30

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]28 [/SUP]But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

[SUP]30 [/SUP]For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.


"The wages of sin is death," and that Bible Basic has not changed. In fact, the Christian stands in far greater danger than the unbeliever in regards to judgment for sin in their physical lives. Salvation cannot be lost, that is why Christ called it Eternal Life, everlasting, and a removal from condemnation and eternal judgment.

But that is not the focal point of Lordship Salvation: the focal point is false profession evidenced by shoddy and unsound doctrine and devilish lifestyles and practices.

Not sure why, after posting several statements from MacArthur's site that show that no-one is saying people are saved by works, you are still trying to make what I say refer to how one is saved.

That's not the issue, and that has been clarified over and over.

Again, in view is related to Christ's teaching in regards to false profession. Tares. False trees producing evil fruit.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Originally Posted by P1LGR1M

Could you show me where Christ reveals the Gospel to anyone? There are occasions, but I wonder if you would just post them to support your view.

And can you tell me where Christ has a focus on people changing their mind about Him here...


Matthew 9:13

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]13 [/SUP]But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Show me from the original language that "to repentance" is in that verse.

Be glad to:

Matthew 9:13

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


Your reasoning denies a pretty simple principle, and for what?

To justify yourself. You should give that some thought.

You want to deny sin is the focus here...



Luke 5:29-32

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]29 [/SUP]And Levi made him a great feast in his own house: and there was a great company of publicans and of others that sat down with them.

[SUP]30 [/SUP]But their scribes and Pharisees murmured against his disciples, saying, Why do ye eat and drink with publicans and sinners?

[SUP]31 [/SUP]And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.

[SUP]32 [/SUP]I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.


...?

Is Christ saying "These have no sin?"

No, He is saying He interacts with them because they have sin, and are the ones He came to call.

The point is, "Those who are sick need a Doctor, and those that are sinners need a Savior."

Originally Posted by P1LGR1M

Or how this...


Luke 18:9-14

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.


[SUP]14 [/SUP]I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.



Isn't Christ teaching about repentance?

Yep. The subject(Sinner) changes their mind about how they receive mercy(Christ.)

You are suggesting that we can go to the Temple and pray apart from repentance and be justified? lol

Seriously, my friend, you are kicking at some serious goads.

This is within a framework of Law, not Grace (though we know that the Publican received mercy by grace).

Christ is not central to the Publican's repentance, that is just a fact.

He didn't beat on his chest because he "felt" sorry for his sins. He recognized he was a sinner and recognized that Christ has mercy on sinners.

He didn't? Seems pretty clear in the text that he did.

Show where he "recognized Christ" at all in the text.

He didn't beat on his chest because he "felt" sorry for his sins.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.


He most certainly did.

Christ is defining Repentance in this teaching.

See how No-Lordship Salvation has to redefine the definitions of Christ Himself?

Any other No-Lordship Movement adherents want to second what this member is teaching, that the Publican didn't "didn't beat on his chest because he 'felt' sorry for his sins..."

...?

Originally Posted by P1LGR1M

but Scripture does not limit a definition of repentance to changing our minds about Who Christ is.



This is very true. And this is the key to this debate. In the sense of salvation and eternal life, the scripture limits this definition to one word and one meaning.

When it comes to salvation and eternal life, metanoeo (change your mind)Is always used.

And it is not divorced from Faith:


Acts 20:21

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.



Seems the Apostles taught the same thing that Christ taught.

It is a transitive verb so it MUST have a subject and object either stated or implied.

And?

By this you think you can redefine repentance and how God creates it in the heart of those who actually believe what God says?

It is God that convicts the sinner, my friend...not men.

And when it comes to salvation the subject is ALWAYS the sinner and the object is ALWAYS Christ.

And this shows repentance divorced from faith...how?

It is NOT the sinner and his sins for salvation. It is the sinner and Christ for salvation.

Not sure why you feel you need to present a false argument: no-one is saying salvation arises from repentance from sins, but that salvation is not divorced from repentance or faith.

metamellomai: change your emotion, regret; translated repent.Is NEVER used in the sense of salvation.

Just as the Publican "changed his mind about Christ, but didn't "didn't beat on his chest because he 'felt' sorry for his sins..."


Again, could the other No-Lordship Movement believers here either affirm this teaching as Biblical or correct your fellow for error.

This I would like to see.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Originally Posted by P1LGR1M

I was going to respond to this on each point but decided not to.

You need to read the thread instead of bearing false witness as others in this thread have done.

It is quite clear your a re not a student if you do not understand (1) that a definition is not limited to that which you insist it is (and you can verify this by taking a look at a dictionary which gives examples of defining by context) and (2) you think you can build a case by cherry-picking a singular element of a passage or discussion.

Repentance is defined by the post, and as I said before you can read the posts dealing with repentance which precede it.

Your studies seem to suffer from tunnel vision.



God bless.

while it is true that you can define a term contextually by giving examples...

You're not being honest here. You said...

there was no definition of 'repentance' in your post...a definition would have looked something like this...

'repentance is...' or 'repentance means...'

But there is hope for you yet, as a student, that is, because now you have learned something: that definitions are not as you say above, but can be found in illustration.

you have not done that either...

I have. lol

Tunnel vision has kept you from observing that the "definition" given you was an addition to that which I gave before.

Note carefully:

Originally Posted by RachelBibleStudent

define 'repentance'

Be glad to.

Repentance is a pretty basic Bible Doctrine, one most of us should be familiar with.

In regards to repentance that can be defined by Scripture, I have presented quite a few passages and verses dealing with that subject which contrasts the rejection of repentance in association with salvation in Christ by the No-Lordship Movement.

I will present a picture of repentance which I feel spans the Two Covenants in view in the New Testament, meaning the Covenant of Law (Active in the beginning of the Gospels) and the New Covenant (established by Christ through His death and validated with the creation of the Church in Acts):

Now let's back up yet once more:

The Character of Saving Faith


True faith is always accompanied by repentance from sin. Repentance is agreeing with God that you are sinful, confessing your sins to Him, and making a conscious choice to turn from sin (Luke 13:3, 5; 1 Thessalonians 1:9), pursue Christ (Matthew 11: 28-30; John 17:3), and obey Him (1 John 2:3). It isn't enough to believe certain facts about Christ. Even Satan and his demons believe in the true God (James 2:19), but they don't love and obey Him. True saving faith always responds in obedience (Ephesians 2:10).

Here we see the definition you limit a definition to.

Do you see a definition of repentance in there?

And I affirm what is said in this definition.

you have not given any examples of actual repentance...only examples of repentance being urged or commanded...

You do not see John's preaching as being an example of repentance?

Do we have a different definition for repentance than that given by the greatest of all Old Testament Prophets?

Please give me your "definition" of repentance and correct my error.

your inability or unwillingness to define the simple term 'repentance' is actually key to your false doctrine of 'lordship salvation'...

You inability to track a conversation coupled with your ability to blithely charge others with false doctrine without offering why shows you are a very poor student indeed.

I have not only defined repentance Biblically, I have countered the No-Lordship teaching with what is not repentance:


2 Peter 2:19-22

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]19 [/SUP]While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

[SUP]20[/SUP]For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

[SUP]21[/SUP]For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

in lordship salvation 'repentance' is a chameleon word that means whatever you want it to mean...

Then explain why I am giving Biblical examples of repentance.

And not doing what you do...

there was no definition of 'repentance' in your post...a definition would have looked something like this...

'repentance is...' or 'repentance means...'

you can arbitrarily assume a standard for 'repentance' in which you are repentant while most others are not repentant...

There is a standard for repentance, clearly defined in Scripture, and that is what I have presented.

How did I change this...


Luke 18:9-14

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.


[SUP]14 [/SUP]I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.


...?

the end result is what i noted earlier...self righteousness...

Where have I glorified myself?

Look, a "student" isn't someone that goes around levying charges against people which they cannot support, but someone who studies.

Perhaps if you actually studied the issue at hand you might save yourself some trouble.

We are not discussing how one is saved, we are discussing what comes after salvation.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

the reason i have that personal policy is because threads tend to get longer than ten pages for one of two reasons...

either the issue is by nature unresolvable and therefore impossible to settle by discussion or debate...or else one or more of the thread participants are simply incorrigible and will not be convinced by either scripture or reason to change their view making further discussion or debate useless...

in the case of this thread which has gone for longer than ten pages it is seeming more and more like the latter is the case and that the 'lordship salvation' proponents are the guilty party and therefore a waste of verbiage...

Which again shows you have not studied the thread, lol.

Only now is the actual topic of Lordship Salvation actually being discussed.

And you have erroneously concluded a to who is guilty and what they are guilty of.

I will restate that several members involved in this thread are guilty of false witness against others, and this begins with the slanderous accusations against Lordship Salvation adherents by those ridiculously ignorant of what they even believe.

You are guilty of this now too.

Welcome to the thread.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

thank you for demonstrating what a definition of 'repentance' looks like...

i could also post a definition of repentance either dictionary style or made up of scriptural examples...

but it is important that p1lgr1m give -his- definition of repentance since repentance is so central to his doctrine of 'lordship salvation' and therefore the definition of this word is key to evaluating the doctrine...

however as i observed in a previous post it appears that he is unwilling or unable to provide a definition of 'repentance'...and i contend that a nebulous non definition of repentance is necessary for 'lordship salvation' teaching to produce its intended result...namely self righteousness and elitism in the teacher...

You will have to admit that I have based on your own words:

while it is true that you can define a term contextually by giving examples...you have not done that either...

I have.

Now we see the contradiction in your own testimony:

Originally Posted by RachelBibleStudent

there was no definition of 'repentance' in your post...a definition would have looked something like this...

'repentance is...' or 'repentance means...'

So again, I ask that you actually read the thread.

It will help you not to make statements which only serve to bring a legitimate charge of false witness against you.

Ignorance is never an excuse. People are convicted every day who are ignorant of the facts. And some are erroneously convicted due to lack of facts. You're charges might seem reasonable on the surface to those who also build their doctrines on circumstantial "evidence," but this does not excuse error when supplying testimony.


God bless.

 

[Magenta]

that is why it says 'usually' and not 'always'

I wonder if you will get an apology for that... I would hope so.

 

[KennethC]

Repentance means a change of mind toward the former sinful selves we lived that made us enmity to God, and our Lord Jesus clearly says we must produce fruit met with repentance.

That means that how you walk after confessing your sins will determine if it was a true repentance, as if you continue to do those same sinful acts willfully/deliberately it was not a true repentance. If you work towards not doing it any longer and then stop committing that sin/s then it was a true repentance.

Repenting of one's sins can not be separated from the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation !!!


The other topic I seen discussed is those who place Jesus as Savior but not Lord, and I do see this all the times by those who claim they are saved but then when it comes to obedience they toss this topic out the window. For Jesus to be our Lord means you believe and trust in doing what He said, and Jesus can not be one and not the other over our lives or that makes one preaching a false doctrine (another Jesus / 2 Corinthians 11:4)

We are called to test all things because just because a person mentions the name Jesus does not mean they are preaching the same Jesus of God's Word; Our Lord and Savior !!!

 

[P1LGR1M]

Woe! Who knew how wrong the KJV was for Matt 28:18-20

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matt 28:19-20 KJV

Who said anything about the KJV?

If you want to debate translations, go find a suitable thread for that.

The discussion here is about Lordship Salvation, and by extension...the No-Lordship Salvation Movement.

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” Matt 28:19-20 ESV

First, no repentance is actually mentioned in the text, in any language, including the Greek, although I would say the "teaching" or "making disciples" covers it.

And the No-Lordship Movement denies that it is disciples being made.

Honestly, can any of you people focus?

Do you see the Lord defining what He means when He commands that disciples be made?


"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” Matt 28:19-20 ESV


?

No-Lordship teaches those saved do not have to be disciples. That they do not have to observe all that He commanded.

And before all the KJV people get mad at me, I was joking about how wrong the translation was!! Only a sight error! LOL

A joke implies there will be humor present...I did not recognize any humor.



The only error that can be identified is your false argument that in view is an attempt to make repentance a pre-salvation work, or that this is the only element of the error of the No-Lordship Movement.

It is just one aspect of discussion, though it has received a fair amount of attention in the last page or two.

Now, you want to tell me whether you believe that the Lord's command implies that disciples will go out and make more disciples who will observe all that He has commanded?

In fact, the Greek uses the word μαθητεύσατε or mathateusate, which is an aorist, imperative active. It means "to make a disciple." It comes from the same root word as "disciple."

And this is a reason to divorce repentance from true faith?

It is an excuse to teach greasy grace which teaches, not to observe all that Christ commanded, but that there need be no evidence of faith, fruit, or repentance from sin?

"πορευθέντες οὖν μαθητεύσατε πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, βαπτίζοντες αὐτοὺς εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος,20 διδάσκοντες αὐτοὺς τηρεῖν πάντα ὅσα ἐνετειλάμην ὑμῖν· καὶ ἰδοὺ ἐγὼ μεθ’ ὑμῶν εἰμι πάσας τὰς ἡμέρας ἕως τῆς συντελείας τοῦ

c]αἰῶνος." Matt.28:19-20 Greek

Can you tell me exactly how this helps those who do not read Greek?

Does posting the Greek Language somehow contribute to this discussion?

This is why Paul teaches that there be an interpretation. Sorry, but I am not impressed, and it does not contribute to the conversation, nor does it make anything you have said relevant to the discussion at hand.

So the command, in the original language is to MAKE DISCIPLES!

No kidding. What do you think I have been arguing, lol.

So any nonsense about disciples not being saved really does this text injustice.

First, no-one has said the disciples were not "saved." From the perspective of Election the disciples were in fact saved, however, they were not born again Christians.

Not one of them believed in Christ's death or Resurrection, that is just a Biblical fact that cannot be denied.

And the problem with No-Lordship Salvation is that it creates what was falsely levied upon Lordship Salvation teachers and adherents which is a Dichotomy among believers, some will evidence salvation while others will not.

We are all saved the same way, and we all benefit from the same provision of that salvation, which will in fact evidence whether salvation is genuine or a false profession.

It is a very simple Biblical Principle which demands an understanding of the Sovereignty of God. And that Sovereignty is not just limited to salvation itself, but to the life of the believer.


Hebrews 11

King James Version (KJV)
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]For by it the elders obtained a good report.



This is contrasted with the false profession addressed by James:


James 2:14-17

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]14 [/SUP]What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

[SUP]15 [/SUP]If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

[SUP]16 [/SUP]And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.


Just as Lordship Salvation is not teaching how men are saved, but addressing salvation as it relates to practical matters of faith after salvation, even so here James is not teaching how men are saved, but...

...evidence that the profession of faith is false.

People say "I have faith," yet James is saying that faith will evidence works, meaning, people will do, and not just say.

That is why he states...


James 1:22

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.


There are a number of warnings, many really, against a shallow profession of faith.

You call it nonsense...

So any nonsense about disciples not being saved really does this text injustice.

...but the fact is we can see disciples who did in fact not only depart from Christ, but one in particular betrayed him.

I'm speaking about Peter, by the way.





God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

I wonder if you will get an apology for that... I would hope so.

That is not unexpected, seeing that for you this has more to do with you than the actual topic matter.

No apology should be expected when it centers on truth. We are never going to be able to deal with any issue by cherry-picking the posts we want to address and ignoring those we do not.

Now, do you have something to say in regards to the actual topic or are you trying to stir up more emotional responses to feed you ego with?

God bless.

 

[KennethC]

Response to Pilgrim and post #377...........

You said there that the disciples were saved but not born again, but that is a complete contradiction as a person can not be saved before they are born again.

Lord Jesus clearly said nobody who is not born again would see the kingdom of heaven (eternal life), thus one can not be saved before this fact or else we would be saying a person has eternal life before being born again which is error.

This also is not the only time Jesus made such a statement in His teachings that if we do not do this we will not see the kingdom of heaven.

Also what is your understanding of apostasy ???

Because the bible makes it clear that no apostate teacher has eternal life, and the definition of apostasy is one who was once in the truth but fell away into lies of a false doctrine. Augustine is a good person to study on about the topic of apostasy as in the 4th century he left the truth to start a bad doctrine !!!

Also what do do with Acts 20:28-31 where Apostle Paul clearly says disciples will get drawn away and not spared ???

 

[P1LGR1M]

Response to Pilgrim and post #377...........

You said there that the disciples were saved but not born again, but that is a complete contradiction as a person can not be saved before they are born again.

Sure they can, the entire Old Testament testifies to this Biblical Truth.

Not one Old Testament Saint was eternally redeemed, they had only the remission and atonement provided through the temporary and temporal provision of vicarious death of animals.

We know this because this is what Scripture states:

Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.



Hebrews 10

King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


Now, would we say that Abraham was not saved? Of course not. But, we can say his sin was not eternally redeemed, and that the Ministry of the Spirit of God was different in His day based on Christ's Own teachings in regards to the Coming of the Comforter.

But this is better discussed in the Thread "Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost."

This thread deals with Lordship Salvation, and if you want to address my statements in the post you refer to, please quote me and we can discuss it in greater detail.

You can explain how Peter was a born again Christian yet did not want Christ to die, rebuked Him when Christ gave him the Gospel, denied he even knew Him when He was taken, and then did not believe He was Resurrected after He was.

Lord Jesus clearly said nobody who is not born again would see the kingdom of heaven (eternal life), thus one can not be saved before this fact or else we would be saying a person has eternal life before being born again which is error.

So which Kingdom is in view?

You need to keep in mind that the Lord did not send the disciples out to preach to the world:


Matthew 10:5-7

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]5 [/SUP]These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

This also is not the only time Jesus made such a statement in His teachings that if we do not do this we will not see the kingdom of heaven.

First, "we" do not do this, regeneration is the power of Sovereign God.

Secondly, you have strayed from what was in view, which is whether disciples can be found who were not saved.

I have given John 6:66 and Judas as examples that there are clearly disciples who are not saved.

We expand the discussion when we consider that Peter wasn't "saved" according to New Covenant standard, but again I would prefer we stick to the discussion at hand. We do not have to center on new birth prior to Pentecost, and I am confident that nay objection you raise can be found addressed in the thread "Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost."

Do you think Judas was saved in any way shape or form?

Also what is your understanding of apostasy ???

It's pretty simple, it is a standing away from (and implied is that a standing with was the previous position).

False profession leads to apostasy, and I do not view apostasy something that is, from an eternal perspective in relation to salvation, something that a born again believer can do.

They can in a temporal sense, I believe, fall into sin to the point where they deny Christ, but, that does not mean they lose their salvation, and I think that scenario is very rare if possible at all. The more likely truth in regards to apostasy is that they rejected the truth to begin with, and their association with Christ was false.

This is what the writer of Hebrews makes clear here:


Hebrews 10:26-29

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]26 [/SUP]For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

[SUP]27 [/SUP]But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

[SUP]28 [/SUP]He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

[SUP]29 [/SUP]Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?



Verse 28 gives rejection of the Law in contrast to the rejection of the New Covenant and the core issues involved.

This is why some were in danger of forsaking the assembling of the brethren...because they did not draw near with a true heart, but as the examples are given by the writer of Hebrews they had evil hearts of unbelief, and the Gospel was not mixed with faith.

Because the bible makes it clear that no apostate teacher has eternal life, and the definition of apostasy is one who was once in the truth but fell away into lies of a false doctrine.

You are ascribing truth to a false teacher. That is error.

False teachers reject the truth:


2 Peter 2:20-22

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]20 [/SUP]For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.



This is a little different in regards to the disciples, because the Gospel had not yet been revealed to them through the indwelling Spirit of God.

Some of them were saved, though, according to the Old Testament Standard, which factors in Election. But he Elect are not "saved" from a temporal perspective until they are converted.

You and I were not "saved" until w turned to Christ and were born again.

Augustine is a good person to study on about the topic of apostasy as in the 4th century he left the truth to start a bad doctrine !!!

I don't waste my time trying to follow Church History and the teachers that arose out of it.

Why do that when we have the Bible?

Also what do do with Acts 20:28-31 where Apostle Paul clearly says disciples will get drawn away and not spared ???

I don't do anything with it except seek to place it within the framework of Redempptive History in it's proper context.


Acts 20:28-31

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]28 [/SUP]Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

[SUP]30 [/SUP]Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

[SUP]31 [/SUP]Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.


What do you do with it?

Now I would suggest, if you have a problem with something I have said, that you quote exactly what I said and keep it within the context of the post.

You can join the other thread to discuss New Birth but the discussion here is Lordship Salvation and by extension the No-Lordship Movement.


God bless.