LORDSHIP SALVATION

[MarcR]

IMO, Lord and Savior are inseparable!

1 Cor 6:20
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
KJV


1 Cor 7:20-23
20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.
21 Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather.
22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.
23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.
KJV


By His blood, Jesus purchased us out of bondage to sin. Herein is Salvation both from sin and from its penalty.

But, by virtue of that purchase, Jesus is Lord, and He is entitled to our faithful service.

IMO, you cant have one without the other!

 

[P1LGR1M]

I've been chatting to a chap on another website who believes Christ is the end of the mosaic law unto righteousness, not the ten commandments.
Another one of those eresies eh pilgrim

Not really, because the principles of the Ten Commandments are not restricted to the Covenant of Law. However, we know that the keeping of the Covenant of Law is forbidden. Someone can celebrate Passover but they err if they feel it is commanded of them. They err if they ascribe salvific quality to this or any other sacrifice...which the Law demanded.

The Covenant of Law never gave righteousness, it was simply meant to show those who failed to keep it their need for a Savior.

That doesn't mean we say "Well, good thing that the restriction for murder has been lifted," lol. "Good thing we can now be unholy on the Sabbath."

In view is the Covenant, and particularly in view is the provision of those Covenants. Under Law, provision for remission of sins was through the vicarious death of animals. Under the New Covenant...it's not. Christ is the only Sacrifice that can make believers perfect/complete in regards to remission of sins, and that is precisely what God promised to do when He promised a New Covenant:


Hebrews 8:8-13

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.


[SUP]13 [/SUP]In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


Hebrews 10:15-18

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

[SUP]16 [/SUP]This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


Now, the No-Lordship Movement denies a very simple truth written into the promise of the New Covenant:


Ezekiel 36:22-27

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]22 [/SUP]Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

[SUP]26 [/SUP]A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


We don't keep the Law of God because we are compelled to, it is because we are made to understand His will, and in understanding we keep His commandments.

Those under Law were not brought to the standard we are held to. Adultery means just looking with lust, not the physical act. Murder means hating a brother without cause.

And something I believe is another constant is this: the wages of sin. The Christian should fear physical death as relevant to him/herself more than to the unbeliever, because God does not chastise those who do not belong to Him, but His children.

Heresy? No, not really. Of course would have to know more of what he believes but on the surface, there is no question...


Romans 10:4

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]4 [/SUP]For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.


And this goes back to the distinction of provision which is distinct in each Age.


God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

IMO, Lord and Savior are inseparable!

1 Cor 6:20
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
KJV


1 Cor 7:20-23
20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.
21 Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather.
22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.
23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.
KJV


By His blood, Jesus purchased us out of bondage to sin. Herein is Salvation both from sin and from its penalty.

But, by virtue of that purchase, Jesus is Lord, and He is entitled to our faithful service.

IMO, you cant have one without the other!

Amen.


God bless.

 

[KennethC]

I don't dispute the ten commandments are on our heart and mind but Christ is still the end of the whole law unto righteousness, including the ten commandments

That is only because He taught us to walk by love, and when we do that all else will be upheld.

This does not mean the law was just completely done away with as even Jesus says by obeying the two greatest commandments He gave fulfills the law.

Apostle Paul expounds on this in Romans 13:9-11 where he starts naming some of the 10 and even says if there be any other commandments given by the Lord they are all summed up by love your neighbor as yourself.

Love upholds and establishes the law, not does away with it !!! (Romans 3:31)

 

[james57]

Not really, because the principles of the Ten Commandments are not restricted to the Covenant of Law. However, we know that the keeping of the Covenant of Law is forbidden. Someone can celebrate Passover but they err if they feel it is commanded of them. They err if they ascribe salvific quality to this or any other sacrifice...which the Law demanded.

The Covenant of Law never gave righteousness, it was simply meant to show those who failed to keep it their need for a Savior.

That doesn't mean we say "Well, good thing that the restriction for murder has been lifted," lol. "Good thing we can now be unholy on the Sabbath."

In view is the Covenant, and particularly in view is the provision of those Covenants. Under Law, provision for remission of sins was through the vicarious death of animals. Under the New Covenant...it's not. Christ is the only Sacrifice that can make believers perfect/complete in regards to remission of sins, and that is precisely what God promised to do when He promised a New Covenant:


Hebrews 8:8-13

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.


[SUP]13 [/SUP]In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


Hebrews 10:15-18

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

[SUP]16 [/SUP]This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


Now, the No-Lordship Movement denies a very simple truth written into the promise of the New Covenant:


Ezekiel 36:22-27

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]22 [/SUP]Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

[SUP]26 [/SUP]A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


We don't keep the Law of God because we are compelled to, it is because we are made to understand His will, and in understanding we keep His commandments.

Those under Law were not brought to the standard we are held to. Adultery means just looking with lust, not the physical act. Murder means hating a brother without cause.

And something I believe is another constant is this: the wages of sin. The Christian should fear physical death as relevant to him/herself more than to the unbeliever, because God does not chastise those who do not belong to Him, but His children.

Heresy? No, not really. Of course would have to know more of what he believes but on the surface, there is no question...


Romans 10:4

King James Version (KJV)


[SUP]4 [/SUP]For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.


And this goes back to the distinction of provision which is distinct in each Age.


God bless.

How would your post show Christ is not the end of the whole la we unto righteousness(rom10:4) Paul certainly meant the whole law in that verse

 

[MarcR]

This is a kind of judgementalism. What they mean is people will come to church and do the christian stuff but not much more.
What they do not understand is most know they want something more but do not know how or what the next steps are.

Often also people from the outside have no understanding of the debilitating situations people find themselves in, and what they give may very well be the best they can offer, but is easily dismissed as unimportant, like the widows offering who gave everything, while the rich man gave a great quantity of money but with much pomp and attention to seem important.

Matt 28:19-20
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
KJV


Virtually all Bible believing churches understand the responsibility to evangelize; but, unfortunately, very few follow up with discipleship!

The Great Commission does not stop at verse 19!

 

[james57]

That is only because He taught us to walk by love, and when we do that all else will be upheld.

This does not mean the law was just completely done away with as even Jesus says by obeying the two greatest commandments He gave fulfills the law.

Apostle Paul expounds on this in Romans 13:9-11 where he starts naming some of the 10 and even says if there be any other commandments given by the Lord they are all summed up by love your neighbor as yourself.

Love upholds and establishes the law, not does away with it !!! (Romans 3:31)

I haven't said the law was done away with! The ten commandments are on our hearts and minds. But Christ is still the end of the law unto righteousness.

 

[Hoffco]

Any one who puts don't law keep as not Gospel, is not teaching the Gospel of Christ ,Jesus demanded that His disciple be law keepers: "if you love Me, you will keep My commandments." Hoffco

 

[james57]

Any one who puts don't law keep as not Gospel, is not teaching the Gospel of Christ ,Jesus demanded that His disciple be law keepers: "if you love Me, you will keep My commandments." Hoffco

I haven't said the ten commandments should not be reflected in our lives. But we are not under them for righteousness before God, there is a difference

 

[P1LGR1M]

How would your post show Christ is not the end of the whole la we unto righteousness(rom10:4) Paul certainly meant the whole law in that verse

Well for some of us Romans 10:4 is sufficient.


God bless.

 

[james57]

Well for some of us Romans 10:4 is sufficient.


God bless.

That's great, because Paul does not state he is only referring to part of the law, so what he wrote is sufficient as written
God bless

 

[Hoffco]

Any one who puts don't law keep as not Gospel, is not teaching the Gospel of Christ ,Jesus demanded that His disciple be law keepers: "if you love Me, you will keep My commandments." Hoffco

 

[MarcR]

The danger of it is that it could leave one forever wondering about their state of salvation due to the fact they'll be wondering if they 'made Him' Lord enough.

On an intellectual level I can see this as a problem; but: Rom 8:14-16
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
KJV


This seems to take the issue outside our intellect and place both confirmation and affirmation on a different plain!

 

[KennethC]

I haven't said the law was done away with! The ten commandments are on our hearts and minds. But Christ is still the end of the law unto righteousness.

I am trying to understand you though as you are not explaining what you think, "Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness" means to you.

When some post scriptures like this they usually do it to try to make obedience or keeping His commandments not a requirement. Thus they usually show by doing so they don't know how to discern the physical from the spiritual !!!

Christ is the end of law unto righteousness because walking in His righteousness of walking in love for all will have no need to worry about the law because love establishes and upholds it. It does not break/transgress it !!!

Walking in love also will have the fruit of the Holy Spirit shown in one's life, and Paul says against such that walk by the fruit there is no law. This is because the fruit of the Spirit will not lead one to transgressions !!!

 

[P1LGR1M]

Any one who puts don't law keep as not Gospel, is not teaching the Gospel of Christ ,Jesus demanded that His disciple be law keepers: "if you love Me, you will keep My commandments." Hoffco

Which is better understood if we understand that Christ was made under the Law and taught within the framework of the Law.

That does not change the fact that He fulfilled the Law, and the Covenant which was only meant to be in effect until He cam yielded to the establishment of the New Covenant.

Paul was not a minister of the Law:


2 Corinthians 3:6-8

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?


We do not place anything that God has revealed as His will in a category of obsolete unless He has made that clear in a following command. The New Covenant is that new command, and the Writer of Hebrews makes this very clear. It is just my view that no-one rightly understands the Law without understanding the Book of Hebrews. The Writer makes it clear that the Covenant of Law, the First Covenant as he calls it, is distinct from the New Covenant. The Law is said to be shadow, figure, parable, and Christ is said to be the reality that shadow, figure, parable represented.


God bless.

 

[james57]

Any one who puts don't law keep as not Gospel, is not teaching the Gospel of Christ ,Jesus demanded that His disciple be law keepers: "if you love Me, you will keep My commandments." Hoffco

But I have not said the ten commandments should not be reflected in our lives, so why have you written what you have?

 

[P1LGR1M]

On an intellectual level I can see this as a problem; but: Rom 8:14-16
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
KJV


This seems to take the issue outside our intellect and place both confirmation and affirmation on a different plain!

Amen.


God bless.

 

[KennethC]

On an intellectual level I can see this as a problem; but: Rom 8:14-16
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
KJV


This seems to take the issue outside our intellect and place both confirmation and affirmation on a different plain!

Also all one would have to do also is read 1 John chapters 2-4 as they give confirmation as well. There is no reason for one to doubt their salvation as the bible gives clear passages of assurance !!!

 

[KennethC]

Which is better understood if we understand that Christ was made under the Law and taught within the framework of the Law.

That does not change the fact that He fulfilled the Law, and the Covenant which was only meant to be in effect until He cam yielded to the establishment of the New Covenant.

Paul was not a minister of the Law:


2 Corinthians 3:6-8

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?


We do not place anything that God has revealed as His will in a category of obsolete unless He has made that clear in a following command. The New Covenant is that new command, and the Writer of Hebrews makes this very clear. It is just my view that no-one rightly understands the Law without understanding the Book of Hebrews. The Writer makes it clear that the Covenant of Law, the First Covenant as he calls it, is distinct from the New Covenant. The Law is said to be shadow, figure, parable, and Christ is said to be the reality that shadow, figure, parable represented.


God bless.

Romans 3:31, and Romans 13:9-11

 

[P1LGR1M]

That's great, because Paul does not state he is only referring to part of the law, so what he wrote is sufficient as written
God bless

Let's not forget...


2 Timothy 3:15-17

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

[SUP]16 [/SUP]All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.


All Scripture.

Thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

We cannot present a scenario that anything that conflicts with Scripture is profitable for anything.


God bless.