Epostle in post #879 you just took a number of scriptures and used them badly out of context to try and make calling Mary the Queen of heaven acceptable.
Then you have to deny the Davidic kings had queens (always the mother of the king, not the wife)
These where actual physical earthly kings and queens mentioned here, and when we go back in scripture we can see that God only appointed earthly kings because of the hardness of our hearts. Mankind wanted them, not God !!!
That doesn't change the fact that they had queens with significant roles. I don't know about your bible but 1 Kings and 2 Chron. is in mine.
You were already told the rendering of Revelation 12 is wrong, as the woman mentioned there is not symbolic for Mary but stands for Israel.
I can accept that, but what makes no sense is a rigid SINGLE interpretation. Some verses have triple meanings, especially Revelation. I ignored it because this thread has been swarmed "to get the Catholics" and I had too many posts to answer you.
Her son is described as "one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne," (12:5, RSV); so you deny that this is Jesus? If it isn't Jesus, who is it? And if it is, then how can you deny that His mother is Mary? Catholics believe that there is a double application here to the Church and to Mary (a common phenomenon in Scripture). But to deny the application to Mary altogether runs into the exegetical absurdities .
Psalm 2:7-9 (RSV) I will tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to me, "You are my son, today I have begotten you.[8] Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession. [9] You shall break them with a rod of iron, and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."
Revelation 19:13-15 He is clad in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. [14] And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, followed him on white horses. [15] From his mouth issues a sharp sword with which to smite the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron; he will tread the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.
Revelation 12:5 she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,
I can cite Protestant commentators, too. Baptist A. T. Robertson (Word Pictures in the New Testament - six volumes), says of Rev. 12:5: "There is here, of course, direct reference to the birth of Jesus from Mary".
Eerdmans Bible Commentary likewise states: "the 'catching up' is sufficiently similar to the victorious ascension of Jesus to make plain its real meaning in this context."
Jamieson, Fausset,and Brown Commentary states: "rod of iron . . . ch. 2:27; Psalm 2:9, which passages prove the Lord Jesus to be meant. Any interpretation which ignores this must be wrong." It also notes the reference to the ascension.
Yet you can't see that this is referring to Jesus; therefore, that an interpretation that the mother of Jesus in this passage is Mary, cannot be ruled out? It can have a double application to the Church as well, but if we're talking about Jesus' mother, that has to be Mary,
because Jesus wasn't born of the Church; He set up the Church.
- Is the Woman Mary?
- Is the Woman Israel?
- Is the Woman the Church?
You could try to solve this problem by making some of the symbols primary and some secondary.
For example, you could make the Woman’s role as the mother of Jesus primary, so she’s his literal mother, Mary, and the sun, moon, and stars imagery only means that Mary was a Jewish woman.
Or you could make the sun, moon, and stars imagery primary and say that she’s Israel, and the fact that Mary was the particular Jewish woman who gave birth to Jesus is secondary.
We don’t have to make that choice, because if you study the way symbolism is used in the book of Revelation, it often uses a single symbol points to more than one thing.
For example, Revelation 17 tells us what the seven heads of the beast represents:
This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the [Whore of Babylon] is seated; they are also seven kings (
Rev. 17:9-10
).
If the seven heads can be seven mountains and seven kings then the Woman clothed with the sun might be the Virgin Mary
and Israel
and the Church.
When the Book of Revelation speaks of the great sign of a Woman appearing in heaven, she is understood to represent all Israel, indeed, the whole Church. . . . (which couldn't be the nation of Isreal alone, who rejected the message of the New Testament)
On the basis of the “corporate personality” model—in keeping with biblical thought—the early Church had no difficulty recognizing in the Woman, on the one hand, Mary herself and, on the other hand, transcending time, the Church, bride and mother, in which the mystery of Mary spreads out into history.
This Woman represents Mary, the Mother of the Redeemer, but at the same time she also represents the whole Church, the People of God of all times, the Church which in all ages, with great suffering,
brings forth Christ ever anew.
We don’t have to make a forced choice between the possible meanings of what the Woman represents.
In keeping with the richness of the way Revelation uses symbolism, she can be Mary and “all Israel” and “the whole Church” in different ways.
If you are going to deny different ways the Woman is expressed, and insist on ONE SINGLE VIEW, then you are going to have problems with the rest of the book. But then again, the Whore duh Babble-on psychos use a strict literal interpretation of Rev. 13 where it suits them.
The fleeing in verse 6 is after Jesus crucifixion and ascension as verse 5 says He was caught up to God and His throne, Jesus was not caught up as a baby.
Please quote me, I don't recall saying such a thing.
