Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

P1LGR1M · Oct 29, 2015

All divine revelation is given by God. Here is an example of prophesying by one we would most agree was not a born again believer:

John 11:49-53

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]49 [/SUP]And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

[SUP]50 [/SUP]Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

[SUP]51 [/SUP]And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

[SUP]52 [/SUP]And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

[SUP]53 [/SUP]Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death.

One question: can a person be a born again believer yet deny the Gospel of Christ (His death, burial, and Resurrection)?

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Oct 29, 2015

Hoffco said:

Where is the first?

Hoffco said:

Actually they did not, because the Elect had to offer up animal sacrifice just as the non-elect did.

And all died having only offered up those sacrifices, and were not made perfect in regards to remission of sins.

Hoffco said:

This is true, but it was not until Christ began building His Church based on profession of faith in Christ that the Jew and Gentile were made one Body:

Ephesians 2:11-16

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

[SUP]12 [/SUP]That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

[SUP]16 [/SUP]And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Yet you are teaching that Jew and Gentile have always been equivalents. Paul did not teach that:

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Hoffco said:

They were, though the salvation they received as a Nation was largely physical, which is another distinction between redemption in the Old Testament as contrasted with eternal redemption:

Isaiah 43:1-3

King James Version (KJV)
1 But now thus saith the Lord that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]For I am the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.

Hoffco said:

Again, address this passage:

Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Oct 29, 2015

Hoffco said:

To see the beginning of the Church read Acts 2.

Vague references don't really help. Please present the Scripture, not just references.

The "Tree" of Romans is not a picture of the Church, it is a picture of the provision of God. If we try to make the "tree" the Church, then we would also have to say that members of the Body can be cut out of the Church, and there is not a single passage in the New Testament that can corroborate that false teaching.

And let me point out a simple fact about that "Tree:" in view is National Israel, not just the elect.

What you are teaching is that the Elect are not the Elect after all.

This is erroneous on a number of levels. Those cut out of the tree were cut out due to unbelief:

Romans 11:19-21

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

[SUP]21 [/SUP]For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

We see the same imagery here:

Psalm 80:8

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Thou hast brought a vine out of Egypt: thou hast cast out the heathen, and planted it.

And many Jews thought that they were saved through heritage, but Christ taught...

John 15King James Version (KJV)
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

[SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

While this makes little sense to 21st century Gentiles, First Century Jews would have understood this in light of the Hebrew Scriptures. Christ is making it clear that He is the True means of relationship with God, rather than simply being a member of Israel.

Hoffco said:

Sorry, but we were not grafted into Israel, both Israel and Gentile were placed into the same provision for relationship with God, and this is new to Biblical History:

Ephesians 2:14-16King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

[SUP]16 [/SUP]And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Paul distinguishes between the two, Israel and the Church. And while we understand that the Elect have always been Spiritual Israel, we do not discount that God redeemed and Created the Nation of Israel on a National basis, not through individual salvation, which is how He builds the Church.

Hoffco said:

Doesn't mean that people were being inducted into the Church at that time.

Consider:

Matthew 10:5-7King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]5 [/SUP]These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

"Elect Israel" is not in view here, but National Israel, as it is here as well...

Matthew 15:23-24

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]23 [/SUP]But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

And it was not the Elect He sent the disciples out to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom (which is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ), but to Israel on a National Basis, and it is clear...they are lost.

See the link in the quote, and understand that all of Israel, even the Elect among her...were in need of redemption, and this on an eternal basis.

We know there were those among Israel who we might consider "saved," but, as a Nation Christ proclaims them "lost," which refers to a state of ruin.

If we try to place eternal redemption prior to the Cross, then explain why the Lord Himself states He was sent only to the lost sheep...of Israel.

Hoffco said:

No-one argued they won't be, in view is whether they were born again in Old Testament economies.

And I would suggest to you that one cannot be born again apart from the eternal indwelling of God, which was not an Old Testament Ministry, but began when the Comforter came.

Hoffco said:

It doesn't negate the teachings of Christ:

John 14:16-17

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Eternal Life is what Christ came to give, and here...

John 7:38-39

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]38 [/SUP]He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

[SUP]39 [/SUP](But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Not one Old Testament Saint was privy to the Mystery of the Gospel. Not one.

Hoffco said:

This is true.

Hoffco said:

Also true.

Hoffco said:

Sorry, but the earth is under a curse, and believers do not own it, and never have:

Hebrews 11:13

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]13 [/SUP]These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

God bless.

Is · Oct 29, 2015

Bump This thread

Hoffco · Oct 30, 2015

Sorry Pilgrim, you are putting an unnatural interpretation on all the scriptures you quote; You make the Bible to fight against it self, This of the Devil. don't need to refute your arguments, they refute themselves, any open minded person can see ,you only accept the part of the Truth that suits your interpretation. No one can refute the truth of the Bible that I present if they JUST read the texts with an open mind,and let the Bible teach you. Sorry ,you are too far gone into error to be corrected by Men. Jesus' words apply to you, "you blind leaders of the blind". May God have mercy on your soul,! Love to all in the truth, Hoffco

P1LGR1M · Oct 30, 2015

Hoffco said:

This will make, what, the fourth time I have asked you to show why? lol

Okay, so now that we have established that you expect people to embrace what you say apart from any Biblical presentation, I will make this the last post to you until you can begin supporting your charges with an address of what you feel is satanic.

Time to get back on track with the topic, and I am quite happy to leave the public record showing that you cannot address the topic, and that your objections have all been addressed to show the error.

Hoffco said:

Actually, the topic should be simplicity in itself.

Here is another example:

Titus 2:13-15

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

It should be, for the discerning Bible Student, quite obvious that what occurred after Christ's death, burial, Resurrection, and Ascension...didn't take place prior to those events. I have shown in this thread that the eternal indwelling of God was a future event which would take place...only when the Comforter came. I have shown that the disciples themselves did not even believe in the Resurrection of Christ, neither before (for Peter rebuked the Lord when the Lord gave them the Gospel) nor immediately after the Resurrection.

I am guessing you have not bothered to read the Scriptural presentations dealing with this, and that is understandable, few will work their way through 8 or 9 pages of discussion to avoid raising the same objections already dealt with.

So here is a Scriptural presentation showing that the disciples, who some would consider born again Christians...denying the Resurrection:

Luke 24:4-11

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:

[SUP]5 [/SUP]And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?

[SUP]6 [/SUP]He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And they remembered his words,

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.

Now what am I wresting in this text? Is it not obvious...they were unbelieving? That is what the Word of God states clearly...is it not?

Consider:

John 14:26

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP]But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Now why would the Comforter...have to bring these things to their remembrance? Because that is the very Ministry Christ said He would being...after Christ had returned to Heaven.

But Luke isn't done revealing the unbelief of the disciples yet. Let's take a look at two of them, mourning for Christ:

Luke 24:21-26

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulcher;

[SUP]23 [/SUP]And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

[SUP]26 [/SUP]Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

Had they embraced the Resurrection of Jesus Christ?

No...they had decided that Jesus was not He that should Redeem Israel.

One more glimpse into their unbelief (from this chapter):

Luke 24:36-39

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]36 [/SUP]And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

[SUP]37 [/SUP]But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

[SUP]38 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

[SUP]39 [/SUP]Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

...they still thought He was dead, and that they were seeing a ghost, a spirit, someone who had departed from their physical frame (body).

Their unbelief is made clear in Mark:

Mark 16:9-14

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

Now, you have charged me with demonic doctrine, and clearly you have no interest in justifying your charge, but are content to be viewed as a false witness, so once again I would ask you to support your charges with an address of the points made.

But I won't expect it, because the above Scripture speaks for itself.

And I am not the only to question the "belief" of the disciples...

John 16:28-32

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]28 [/SUP]I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

[SUP]30 [/SUP]Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

[SUP]31 [/SUP]Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

The Lord points out that these "believers" will abandon Him. We do not deny they were believers, but, what we can deny is that they understood the Mystery of the Gospel at this point. The reason is made clear by Paul, the Gospel was a Mystery, which is another point mentioned several times in this thread, which has not received the first address.

Men are born again through faith in Christ, and specific faith in the Cross of Christ. Hard to make even one of the disciples trusting in the Cross. Especially when we see that they simply rejected the Resurrection.

Now how many born again believers do you know, my friend, that reject the Resurrection of Christ?

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Oct 30, 2015

Hoffco said:

If you say so. But I can say this...no Christian is taught by Scripture to go around bearing false witness and to refuse to give an answer to nay that asks the reason of the hope that is within them.

Paul did not set that example, but put great effort in dealing with false doctrines.

So tell me, have you ever really given any thought to the topic at hand? It doesn't appear that you have. If I am a false teacher, teaching demonic doctrine, why is it that my posts supply a Biblical presentation which you cannot answer, if it be that you speak for God?

This is one reason why so many that are seeking truth will go to forums, and find no man able to answer their questions. They will be met with the same kind of interaction you have provided, which is "...believe what I say just because I say it or you will be condemned."

Well guess what, the person edified by such effort is going to be you.

Hoffco said:

So you have concluded I am not saved, and condemned to Hell.

Yet you refuse to support any of your charges, nor address the points.

perhaps you can have peace with such a shallow response, but, I doubt it.

Let me ask you this: what "proof" have you offered? You say you have, but I cannot find anything even vaguely similar to a Christian response to either a false teacher or false doctrine. Just as a suggestion, if you want to show that someone is a false teacher, then you are going to have to address their doctrine.

So get busy, because there are many Biblical presentations already in this thread dealing with New Birth, and not one credible response to the presentations that suggest that men were not born again.

It is impossible for men to be born again apart from eternal redemption. Saved, yes, from an eternal perspective, but, eternally redeemed?

No.

In the first to you, which this is a continuation of, we see that the two disciples on the Road to Emmaus "thought" that Christ would redeem Israel. What we can say is that it was understood that Israel needed to be redeemed, and that Christ would accomplish that. The problem with their understanding, which is why they concluded Christ's death denied Redemption...

...is because they were looking for physical redemption. Thus Peter took up the sword, to keep Christ from being taken.

We know, now that the Mystery of the Gospel has been revealed, that Eternal Redemption was in fact an Eternal effort, not a physical one. There was no Church in the Old Testament, and all who were of Spiritual Israel died still awaiting the Redemption of Messiah. We can, having New Testament Revelation, understand that.

They could not.

They had an excuse, but you sir...do not.

So I invite you to the discussion, and you can present your reasoning on why Regeneration has always taken place. But you can start with reconciling how you make those clearly seen in Scripture as unbelievers in the Gospel and the Resurrection of Christ...born again believers.

You can question my salvation, call me a false teacher, call my doctrine demonic, that's doesn't hurt my feelings.

but you are not going to have liberty to do so without a response. Just because you refuse to engage in conversation does not mean I will not.

The choice is yours.

Continued...

P1LGR1M · Oct 30, 2015

Hey, you are in luck! I missed a few of your statements.

Hoffco said:

An open mind is an empty mind, lol.

No-one, I mean no-one...should think that false teachers should simply be ignored. We address them directly, not go around making charges we cannot support.

As far as me accepting only what suits my interpretation, that is why I started this thread. If I am in error, then it is up to those who take the opposing view to show why.

And the primary objections?

1. Christ told Nicodemus he must be born again, that means it must have been available.

2. David said "Take not they Spirit from me," that must mean he had the Spirit.

3. The Old Testament Saints were "saved," that means they must have been born again.

Anyone have anything else they would like to add?

All of these have been dealt with and yet no response.

Care to take a crack at it? I mean, you have not only questioned my salvation, but dogmatically asserted I am satanic. The least you could do is present a Biblical Basis for you charges, as well as to address the focus of the OP.

Hoffco said:

I have refuted both the opinions you present as well as your personal remarks. You have not presented Biblical Doctrine or practice in either.

Hoffco said:

Men cannot correct me, but the Word of God can, and does. Your problem is that you think you are the one correcting, that is why you fail.

Here is the Corrector...

2 Timothy 3:16-17

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

If you have aspirations of correcting people, it might be a good idea to become a little more familiar with All Scripture. Only then will you be able to understand the magnitude of the Cross.

You philosophy seems to be "Hoffco's understanding of Scripture is inspired," and so far...Scripture has remained absent from your doctrine, reproof, correction, and let's not even mention...instruction in righteousness.

Your opinions might change some minds, my friend, but only God can change hearts. let's pray that perhaps He might change yours to be one of concern for the lost, rather than the apparent self appointment to Judge.

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Oct 30, 2015

Okay, since there is a bit of a lull at this time, I would like to take the opportunity to present another aspect of Regeneration for discussion: the indwelling of God.

Most will acknowledge that God has always ministered in the lives of men, but, according to Christ's teaching the coming of the Comforter marks a decided change in how God ministers in the lives of men.

For discussion, consider the following passage:

Acts 1

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

So what is the Promise of the Father which the disciples had heard of Christ? Where do we see that in the Gospels? Where is the promise of the Father in the Old Testament?

Secondly, is that promise not defined by v.5? Is there really any doubt that the Promise they will receive is being Baptized with the Holy Ghost?

And if it has not occurred yet, do we see this as a distinct event which we can say was not taking place prior to the event the Lord states will be "not many days hence?"

God bless.

Gr8grace · Oct 30, 2015

P1LGR1M said:

I believe it was the baptism of the Spirit. And no man had it until Christ was Glorified. And this indwelling is God......Father,Son and Spirit.

John 14:23 (NASB95)
23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

John 14:20 (NASB95)
20 “In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.

John 17:22–23 (NASB95)
22 “The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.

Its interesting P1lgr1m, Jesus Christ gave hints of the future promises(mystery doctrine) of the Church in the last chapters of John in the upper room discourse. Satan missed out on this discussion........he left with Judas.satan was clueless of mystery doctrine. So were did he have to go to get it?..........Paul. What was Pauls thorn?

Sorry, but I believe it ties into your discussion and your persecution on this subject. Satan needs a counterfeit for the baptism of the Spirit and one of them is "It is not unique to the church age." He doesn't want us to know the blessings and privileges that are unique to the Church.

Very few believers are aware of mystery doctrine and all that it entails...........JUST for the church.

Hoffco · Nov 7, 2015

Sorry, for not responding, BUT my PC will not work MOST of the time. the stupid ads keep pushing me off line. I don't have the money to get my PC cleaned up. I spend all my money on family and our ministry here in the Philippines. I fought this thing for an hour and finally got to type. It is 3 am . My PC works best early in the morning. Therefore, sorry, I will never loose an opportunity to teach the great truths I know.! My message this morning, in our church, is The mysteries of the Old Testament,which are revealed in the New T.. The eternal trues of God are revealed in the N.T. but they are veiled in the O.T. Jesus hide the mysteries of the kingdom from many persons, Mk.4:11 . Paul was given the mysteries to reveal to the churches, which were hidden to the O.T. saints. Eph. 1:9 3:3,4,5,9 5:32 "a great mystery ...Christ and His Church" 6:19 "the mystery of the gospel" . Col. 1:26,27 "hidden from ages...now revealed...the mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory." Col.2:2 4:3 2Thess2:7 1Tim.3:9 3:16 "the mystery of godliness, who (GOD) was manifested in the flesh,"... This is why, if you don't accept the plan of God to do it this way, to hide and then reveal truths when He wills, you get all confused. The N.T. always interprets the O.T.. As I say, Rom.8:29-30 is the theme of the whole Bible, this plan of God for salvation had to be in effect in the O.T.. There is no salvation to those who DO NOT
have the SPIRIT, Rom.8:1-39 is true of all the "elect of GOD"!! The Kingdom of God has been in effect since day ONE.! Love Hoffco

P1LGR1M · Nov 7, 2015

Hoffco said:

I Understand. There is no rush, this thread will be here long after I am gone, lol.

Hoffco said:

Sorry to hear that. I might ask if perhaps there is a library in the area where you might be able to get internet access?

Hoffco said:

Commendable, and glad you have your priorities in order, my friend.

Hoffco said:

The battles we face in seeking to carry out our ministries.

Hoffco said:

Excellent.

Hoffco said:

This is true.

Hoffco said:

This is where I have to ask...which Kingdom is Christ speaking of?

Did Christ mean only to minister the mysteries of the Kingdom of God which is eternal to Israel, and not to Gentiles and Samaritans?

Matthew 10:5-7

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Or is the Kingdom in view the Kingdom promised to Israel, which is why the Gospel of the Kingdom was ministered to Israel only?

Tell me why you think the Lord sent the disciples out to the lost sheep of Israel only.

Hoffco said:

So can one be born again apart from receiving Christ and the eternal indwelling? And if that did not occur before the Spirit of Promise was given can we impose that into the Old Testament Economies, particularly when we are told that it would not happen until Christ returned to Heaven?

Hoffco said:

I agree wholeheartedly.

Hoffco said:

And sometimes the Old Testament is used to illustrate New Testament truth and the revelation of those mysteries.

Hoffco said:

But there was no eternal redemption in the Old Testament, Hoffco.

There was no eternal indwelling of God.

There was no revelation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

There was prophecy and promise, but it is not until these truths are revealed in the New Testament by the Spirit of God that we see the promises bestowed.

If men were redeemed by the Sacrifice of Christ they would not have been under command to offer up for sins.

This is a prevalent theme in the Book of Hebrews: the Law, which is the final Economy before the New Covenant is established...could not take away sins.

Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

[SUP]14 [/SUP]How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Hoffco said:

Not entirely accurate: the Old Testament Saints were saved by grace through faith just as we are, but, unlike us, they awaited eternal redemption and the redemption of their sins.

We, on this side of the Cross and Pentecost, enter into relationship having our sins forgiven at the time of salvation.

Hoffco said:

I agree, however, you were not redeemed until you were born again.

Elect, yes, redeemed...no.

You had to respond to the Gospel just like the rest of us.

Hoffco said:

Which one?

If you mean God's Sovereign rule of all eternity, true.

But we see that the "Kingdom is at hand" was a prominent theme of the Gospel of the Kingdom.

This is in regards to that Kingdom that Israel awaited, the one promised by God which would have the Son of David sitting on an unending Throne.

One in which no man would tell his neighbor, "Know the Lord," for all will know Him.

Is that the case today? Do all men know the Lord, or know of Him even?

Or is it only those who have been translated into the Kingdom of His dear Son know the Lord?

Hey thanks for your efforts, and I hope you have better luck with your computer in the future. May God lead you in your message this morning and your congregation be blessed through the preaching of the Word.

God bless.

ladylynn · Nov 7, 2015

Gr8grace said:

Its interesting P1lgr1m, Jesus Christ gave hints of the future promises(mystery doctrine) of the Church in the last chapters of John in the upper room discourse. Satan missed out on this discussion........he left with Judas.satan was clueless of mystery doctrine. So were did he have to go to get it?..........Paul. What was Pauls thorn?

Sorry, but I believe it ties into your discussion and your persecution on this subject. Satan needs a counterfeit for the baptism of the Spirit and one of them is "It is not unique to the church age." He doesn't want us to know the blessings and privileges that are unique to the Church.

Very few believers are aware of mystery doctrine and all that it entails...........JUST for the church.

===========================================================================================================

Gr8grace,
I've been coming to see this truth too Gr8grace., there are many things totally unique to the Church during this dispensation of grace for this time that were not for any other time. I have been puzzled at the lack of interest of believers in seeing how at this time especially God is dealing very differently than He did with people under the law. I'm still learning about how similar the Abrahamic covenant was to this covenant we are in now. Still have a lot to learn but its so important. They did not have the Holy Spirit IN them although He was ON them and came and went. We have Him in us and we are sealed and it is a guarantee till the day of redemption.

thebesttrees · Nov 7, 2015

MarcR said:

How was this unknown before Pentecost?!

Matthew 10:19-20

[SUP]19 [/SUP]But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

P1LGR1M · Nov 7, 2015

thebesttrees said:

No-one denies that the Spirit of God ministered to and through people, this is evident in the ministry of the disciples themselves. However, that does not change the fact that when Christ prophesied of the coming of the Comforter, that which He taught is clearly not something that was taking place then.

John 14:16-17

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

We see in the example of King Saul that the Spirit of God would depart from people. David prayed "Take not thy Spirit from me."

But we understand that the Spirit of God indwelling the believer is, as Christ states here, for ever.

Christ states that this is the Promise of the Father, which He taught the disciples about here:

Acts 1:4-5

King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

The sorrow of the disciples in John 14 is that Christ states "I am returning to my Father," and their hearts were troubled because He was leaving. But, Another Comforter is going to come, He taught, Who will be with you for ever.

Paul testifies of this New Covenant truth here:

2 Corinthians 5:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

God bless.

P1LGR1M · Nov 7, 2015

thebesttrees said:

Another point to consider would be that here the Lord speaks of future events as well.

There is nothing in it that shows that the understanding of the disciples was in regards to the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Saying it was "unknown" is probably not the best way to put it in the sense that it was prophesied. But it was unknown in the sense that this is something that was understood only after it took place, which have coincided with Pentecost.

God bless.

jb · Nov 7, 2015

P1LGR1M said:

Ezek (chapter) 18 was spoken to Israel in Ezekiel's day, it is NOT prophetic!

Ezek 18v31 states: "Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit..."

God says if they "cast away all their transgressions" (ie REPENTS) they will get a new heart and a NEW SPIRIT (ie. they (each individual) will be born again)!

Ezek 36v22-27 does NOT take away the new birth that is stated in Ezek (chapter) 18 for each individual who repented in Ezekiel's day, to state otherwise is complete folly and failing to divide the word of God correctly!

P1LGR1M · Nov 7, 2015

jb said:

Ezekiel 36 is.

jb said:

So this is how men are born again?

Something they do?

Now let's look at the passage quoted:

Ezekiel 36:22-27King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

[SUP]25 [/SUP]Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

[SUP]26 [/SUP]A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Let's look at your proof-text, which you so accurately describe as not prophetic:

Ezekiel 18:28-31

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]28 [/SUP]Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

[SUP]30 [/SUP]Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

[SUP]31 [/SUP]Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Now, back up and read the context of Ezekiel 18, my friend. If you cannot see that in view is physical life, and physical death, then you must be convinced that salvation is achieved by keeping the Law, something the New Testament shuts down as a possibility.

Let me ask you...did you cast away all your transgressions whereby you transgressed...when you were saved?

Is that what the New Testament teaches in regards to salvation in Christ?

Not at all. You need to understand the difference between God commanding those under Law to repent and be obedient to the revelation provided, and God providing the revelation of the Gospel to the natural man through the convicting ministry of the Conforter.

You are imposing an understanding that is not in the text.

This is why people take Ezekiel 18 and teach eternal death from it. The death in view is not eternal, it is the physical consequence of sin taught in the Old Testament.

jb said:

You need to consult the text again:

Ezekiel 18:28-31

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]31 [/SUP]Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Is God saying "I will do this?" Or is He demanding of men that they repent?

jb said:

There is nothing to take away, you are imposing it into the text.

One cannot be born again apart from the eternal indwelling, which did not begin until Pentecost.

One cannot be born again until they have been forgiven for their sins.

That is why the Old Testament Saint was not made perfect (complete) in regards to remission of sins.

Chapter 18 is Covenant of Law, Chapter 36 is the Promise of New Covenant Regeneration.

jb said:

Well, the view is not built on just one passage, but threads it's way through the entire New Testament, beginning in the Gospels and clarified in the Epistles.

God bless.

thebesttrees · Nov 8, 2015

P1LGR1M said:

It has always difficult for me to relate these two verses to baptism by the Holy Spirit and events of the Pentecost.

KennethC · Nov 8, 2015

1 Corinthians 10:1-2

For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea

Cloud represents Spirit - Sea represents water

Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

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