Some conclusions I've made and want to start a debate
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I told you I would continue this discussion with you if you could produce scripture that states anyone who died in OT tines went to dwell with God in heaven.
Jesus words in john 3;13 are perfectly in line with Paul stating Jesus was the first to rise from the dead so in everything he had the supremacy. Obviously he was meaning the first to be raised never to die again
If you have scripture that plainly refutes this please bring it forth, but not theological extrapolation of scripture to overturn the plainly written word
Jesus words in john 3;13 are perfectly in line with Paul stating Jesus was the first to rise from the dead so in everything he had the supremacy. Obviously he was meaning the first to be raised never to die again
If you have scripture that plainly refutes this please bring it forth, but not theological extrapolation of scripture to overturn the plainly written word
no it didn't.
Genesis
1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
verse 1:
created the heavens and the earth.
verse 2:
the Spirit was hovering over the waters.
2 actually comes after 1.
trust me; i'm a mathematician
You're very confused. You made a statement that somehow this scripture proves that Jesus had no beginning of days. I just completely disproved your logic and threw it out of the water completely. Read what I said, read it 7 times and maybe you will understand. This scripture is VERY clear in indicating the true righteousness and endless life that the order of melchizedek is a type of, not what you're saying. Read the scripture VERY CAREFULLY.
no it didn't.
Genesis
1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
verse 1:
created the heavens and the earth.
verse 2:
the Spirit was hovering over the waters.
2 actually comes after 1.
trust me; i'm a mathematician
i'm going to quote some wikipedia about what "logos" means -- in re: the first few verses of John 1. "logos" is the Greek word commonly translated as "word" in English, but not all of the nuance of what this word means comes across in translation.
Logos (UK/ˈloʊɡɒs/, /ˈlɒɡɒs/, or US/ˈloʊɡoʊs/; Greek: λόγος, from λέγω lego "I say") is an important term in western philosophy, psychology,rhetoric, and religion. Originally a word meaning "a ground", "a plea", "an opinion", "an expectation", "word", "speech", "account", "to reason"[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][2][/SUP] it became a technical term in philosophy, beginning with Heraclitus (ca. 535–475 BC), who used the term for a principle of order and knowledge.[SUP][3][/SUP]
Ancient Greek philosophers used the term in different ways. The sophists used the term to mean discourse, and Aristotle applied the term to refer to "reasoned discourse"[SUP][4][/SUP] or "the argument" in the field of rhetoric.[SUP][5][/SUP] The Stoic philosophers identified the term with the divine animating principle pervading the Universe. Under Hellenistic Judaism, Philo (c. 20 BC – AD 50) adopted the term into Jewish philosophy.[SUP][6][/SUP] The Gospel of John identifies the Logos, through which all things are made, as divine (theos),[SUP][7][/SUP] and further identifies Jesus Christ as the incarnate Logos. Although the term "Logos" is widely used in this Christian sense, in academic circles it often refers to the various ancient Greek uses, or to post-Christian uses within contemporary philosophy, Sufism, and the analytical psychology of Carl Jung.
right, so Jesus is the "logos." He was with God in the beginning, and He is God from the beginning.
"logos" isn't just a spoken word - though you may think of Christ as being the thing that God utters to man. in that same sense, He is not different from God, not separate from God, but equally God - an expression of God used in communication with us.
you might still think, "then He's created, He was made when God spoke Him"
lemmee quote just a little more from wiki:
Philo distinguished between logos prophorikos ("the uttered word") and the logos endiathetos ("the word remaining within").[SUP][14][/SUP]
now, "logos" also means something like "principle" or "reason" in addition to referring to a spoken, reasoned argument. consider the distinction that Philo makes -- spoken or unspoken reason or principle. one may certainly hold a premise, an argument, an ethos, a principled, reasoned position, without stating it. that idea, that "logos" does not come into being at the precise moment that it is spoken aloud -- it necessarily pre-exists the moment it is spoken, in fact, or the speaker is not speaking with "logos" but at random, like babble.
God certainly does not babble.
if Jesus Christ is the "logos" of the Almighty God, then Jesus Christ has existed for as long as the Father has had conscious, purposeful, reasoned thought.
so... you want to tell me that you believe there was a time that Jah had an undeveloped mind?
because to me, that's what you're saying if you say that Christ is a created thing with a definite beginning. Jesus the human, sure - when He stooped to become enfleshed and dwell among men. but Christ, the Word? the Logos? when exactly was it that God did not have the capacity to reason?
Logos (UK/ˈloʊɡɒs/, /ˈlɒɡɒs/, or US/ˈloʊɡoʊs/; Greek: λόγος, from λέγω lego "I say") is an important term in western philosophy, psychology,rhetoric, and religion. Originally a word meaning "a ground", "a plea", "an opinion", "an expectation", "word", "speech", "account", "to reason"[SUP][1][/SUP][SUP][2][/SUP] it became a technical term in philosophy, beginning with Heraclitus (ca. 535–475 BC), who used the term for a principle of order and knowledge.[SUP][3][/SUP]
Ancient Greek philosophers used the term in different ways. The sophists used the term to mean discourse, and Aristotle applied the term to refer to "reasoned discourse"[SUP][4][/SUP] or "the argument" in the field of rhetoric.[SUP][5][/SUP] The Stoic philosophers identified the term with the divine animating principle pervading the Universe. Under Hellenistic Judaism, Philo (c. 20 BC – AD 50) adopted the term into Jewish philosophy.[SUP][6][/SUP] The Gospel of John identifies the Logos, through which all things are made, as divine (theos),[SUP][7][/SUP] and further identifies Jesus Christ as the incarnate Logos. Although the term "Logos" is widely used in this Christian sense, in academic circles it often refers to the various ancient Greek uses, or to post-Christian uses within contemporary philosophy, Sufism, and the analytical psychology of Carl Jung.
right, so Jesus is the "logos." He was with God in the beginning, and He is God from the beginning.
"logos" isn't just a spoken word - though you may think of Christ as being the thing that God utters to man. in that same sense, He is not different from God, not separate from God, but equally God - an expression of God used in communication with us.
you might still think, "then He's created, He was made when God spoke Him"
lemmee quote just a little more from wiki:
Philo distinguished between logos prophorikos ("the uttered word") and the logos endiathetos ("the word remaining within").[SUP][14][/SUP]
now, "logos" also means something like "principle" or "reason" in addition to referring to a spoken, reasoned argument. consider the distinction that Philo makes -- spoken or unspoken reason or principle. one may certainly hold a premise, an argument, an ethos, a principled, reasoned position, without stating it. that idea, that "logos" does not come into being at the precise moment that it is spoken aloud -- it necessarily pre-exists the moment it is spoken, in fact, or the speaker is not speaking with "logos" but at random, like babble.
God certainly does not babble.
if Jesus Christ is the "logos" of the Almighty God, then Jesus Christ has existed for as long as the Father has had conscious, purposeful, reasoned thought.
so... you want to tell me that you believe there was a time that Jah had an undeveloped mind?
because to me, that's what you're saying if you say that Christ is a created thing with a definite beginning. Jesus the human, sure - when He stooped to become enfleshed and dwell among men. but Christ, the Word? the Logos? when exactly was it that God did not have the capacity to reason?
no, vv. 6-9 talk about Him separating the waters. so the waters were already created. verses 2-5 don't mention "and God said let there be waters" or "and He created the waters" -- no need to; verse 1-2 says, He created the heavens and the earth. the earth was formless and void at that time.
your reading of this would make the waters an uncreated thing, and have the earth exist before it was created.
verse 1 isn't a preface, giving a synopsis of what's going to be outlined in detail later -- it's a literal specific event. He created the heavens and the earth first -- or as modern cosmology would put it, He created baryonic and non-baryonic matter first. then He arranged these into everything else, as outlined in the text following verse 1.
for my part, i think "waters" are the non-baryonic substances, and "the earth" is the baryonic -- which if observational science has any sort of clue at all, were sure enough "formless and void" in the beginning, after the heavens and the earth were created. so planets were formed in verses 9-10.
does that make sense?
this is a whole other thread tho.
lol, you should have started 20 threads, but you made one ;D
your reading of this would make the waters an uncreated thing, and have the earth exist before it was created.
verse 1 isn't a preface, giving a synopsis of what's going to be outlined in detail later -- it's a literal specific event. He created the heavens and the earth first -- or as modern cosmology would put it, He created baryonic and non-baryonic matter first. then He arranged these into everything else, as outlined in the text following verse 1.
for my part, i think "waters" are the non-baryonic substances, and "the earth" is the baryonic -- which if observational science has any sort of clue at all, were sure enough "formless and void" in the beginning, after the heavens and the earth were created. so planets were formed in verses 9-10.
does that make sense?
this is a whole other thread tho.
lol, you should have started 20 threads, but you made one ;D
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The Word, or Logos, does not mean "mind". You're stretching it way too far from certain definitions outside of scripture. And even from these very definitions, I don't deduce "reason" to mean the mind, I mean it to mean when you talk to and reason with someone. Like I am now, we are reasoning with each other verbally, well not verbally, but in written form. Speech was a thing created by God, that is, the Word, that is, the Logos. This was created in the beginning, as Jesus even said, "I am the beginning", meaning, HE BEGAN, FIRST....... and by the speech and through the speech were things made.
And therein lies the error: Jesus is not a created God! Those two words don't go together. If you are God, you have no beginning and not ending, are self sustaining, creator of all things and above all things. You cannot be God if you are a created being. Where in the world did you get the idea that Jesus was created as God? That statement speaks directly against the nature of God's very existence. Again, Jesus cannot be the creator and be a created being himself.
"And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”
Does God's word not say "you shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve?" Well, here in Hebrews God's angels are told to worship the Son, that would make him God, God eternal. Since only God is to be worshiped, the following would also demonstrate that Jesus is God:
"so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
"John 5:17-18 - Jesus said to them “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.” For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
"John 10:29-33 - My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one. Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” “We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
"Rom.9:5 - Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.
"Philippians 2:5-7 - Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness"
"Col.1:13-18 - He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
All of the above are referring to God almighty, not a created God, but a self sustaining, eternal God, having no beginning or no ending. If Jesus were created he could not be referred to as God nor would the angels worship him and that because it would be going directly against God's word of worshiping him only.
The phrase "The Lord our God is One God" demonstrates multiple persons of one God-head.
You are very confused in your assumptions!
"And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”
Does God's word not say "you shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve?" Well, here in Hebrews God's angels are told to worship the Son, that would make him God, God eternal. Since only God is to be worshiped, the following would also demonstrate that Jesus is God:
"so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
"John 5:17-18 - Jesus said to them “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.” For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
"John 10:29-33 - My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one. Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?” “We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
"Rom.9:5 - Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.
"Philippians 2:5-7 - Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness"
"Col.1:13-18 - He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
All of the above are referring to God almighty, not a created God, but a self sustaining, eternal God, having no beginning or no ending. If Jesus were created he could not be referred to as God nor would the angels worship him and that because it would be going directly against God's word of worshiping him only.
The phrase "The Lord our God is One God" demonstrates multiple persons of one God-head.
You are very confused in your assumptions!
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But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead the FIRSTFRUITS of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead also comes through a man
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive
But each IN HIS OWN TURN. Christ the firstfruits, then when he comes those who belong to him
1cor15:20-23
And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from the dead so that in everything he may have the supremacy col1:18
No one has ever entered heaven except the one who is from heaven, the son of man
John 3:13
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive
But each IN HIS OWN TURN. Christ the firstfruits, then when he comes those who belong to him
1cor15:20-23
And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from the dead so that in everything he may have the supremacy col1:18
No one has ever entered heaven except the one who is from heaven, the son of man
John 3:13
take Aristotle's definition.
He is "the argument" of God in rhetorical speech.
so was there a time when God had no logical cognitive framework, no "idea" or principled stance from which to reason? and then a little light bulb appeared over His head, and *poof* Jesus existed? not long after, God opened His mouth and out came the heavens and the earth (except of course for water, which pre-dates creation? lol)
He is "the argument" of God in rhetorical speech.
so was there a time when God had no logical cognitive framework, no "idea" or principled stance from which to reason? and then a little light bulb appeared over His head, and *poof* Jesus existed? not long after, God opened His mouth and out came the heavens and the earth (except of course for water, which pre-dates creation? lol)
You can be created and be made God, by the Father. The Father does WHATEVER HE PLEASES. If he so wishes to create a being and through that being create all things and make it in his very own image, then he will. He does whatever he wants, and that's exactly what he has done. Here its even written that certain individuals that were created were called gods by God,
Pretty intense scripture here, the word of God is calling the children of God gods. Being made God by God does not mean you are the Father, or that Jesus is the Father, because even Jesus said,
Why would Jesus say the Father is greater if they were both LITERALLY the same??????? Makes no sense. They are spiritually EQUAL because they ARE ONE. Being ONE with God not only applies to Jesus, but also to the true believers. They are equal with God as well, and in this family of God, there is a clear hierarchy and precedence of things, commencing with the Father, then passing down to Jesus Christ, then passing down to the saints. The oneness with God is empowered by the Spirit!
There really is no mystery here about this topic. Its simply that you guys have been heavily pushed the trinity doctrine and the doctrine that Jesus has always existed that you try to twist any scripture to try to prove that. You need to open your eyes, do some research. Where does the trinity doctrine originate from? The trinity teaches that three things have always existed. That is false teaching, its unscriptural and a misinterpretation of scripture. I'm telling you and warning you right now, because I do feel a duty to do so, that as long as you believe this you will not be saved.
Pretty intense scripture here, the word of God is calling the children of God gods. Being made God by God does not mean you are the Father, or that Jesus is the Father, because even Jesus said,
Why would Jesus say the Father is greater if they were both LITERALLY the same??????? Makes no sense. They are spiritually EQUAL because they ARE ONE. Being ONE with God not only applies to Jesus, but also to the true believers. They are equal with God as well, and in this family of God, there is a clear hierarchy and precedence of things, commencing with the Father, then passing down to Jesus Christ, then passing down to the saints. The oneness with God is empowered by the Spirit!
There really is no mystery here about this topic. Its simply that you guys have been heavily pushed the trinity doctrine and the doctrine that Jesus has always existed that you try to twist any scripture to try to prove that. You need to open your eyes, do some research. Where does the trinity doctrine originate from? The trinity teaches that three things have always existed. That is false teaching, its unscriptural and a misinterpretation of scripture. I'm telling you and warning you right now, because I do feel a duty to do so, that as long as you believe this you will not be saved.
RHETORIC IS SPEECH bud. You CANT get away from the fact that Logos MEANS SPEECH. It doesn't mean mind. Common man. Its like saying audio means eardrum. It doesn't, its two different things. Speech and mind are two different things. I am going by what scripture says about the beginning of creation. Read my other posts, I've made alot of things clear. Now if you want to believe in the doctrine that Jesus never began, then so be it, I've already stated my logic and my scriptures backing up what I have said about Jesus being the beginning of creation, and so far none of you guys have provided any scriptures to refute what I have said. You guys have your own theology, because of what you have been taught by the churches, but the scripture teaches something else.
And I am warning you as well, for by believing and teaching that Christ is a created being you believe in a different Lord and a different gospel. That is really amazing, you say, if I believe that Jesus Christ is God, as in having no beginning and no ending, all mighty and Sovereign, then I will not be saved. But you think that by you believing that Christ is a created God that you have salvation. You are nothing but another false teacher who doesn't know that he is a false teacher. And you will be held accountable for teaching these things, that is, unless you repent and believe in the true God, Jesus Christ, who is not a created being, but is God Almighty.
This is similar to trying to convince a preterist or amillennialis.
This is similar to trying to convince a preterist or amillennialis.
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