Some conclusions I've made and want to start a debate

[james57]

Nice thought, The verse does not say that Michael "could not" it says he does not boldly bring accusation against Him. It contextually is pitted against Humans who speak spitefully against others.

I think you are reading this wrong, There is a word that helps, it is "railing" accusation the actual word means: to speak evil about someone. The word is predominantly translated as blasphemy. Now let me ask you does God speak evil when he accuses like Humans do as is the context:

Jud 1:8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Note the point.

It does not say "can not" but basically does not.

It does not say accusation only but accusing with evil speaking. But rather just rebukes. God corrects and speaks the truth but does not vilify others as our own fruits do this.

I think you can reason anything to mean anything you want. Some are better at that than others!

 

[gotime]

Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia Daniel 10:13

So God is one of the chief princes, who are the others?

Do I have to spell it all out. This is the last one otherwise Study for yourself. If you don't care don't study it. If you think I am wrong all good that is your choice.

Jesus who is God is one of the chief princes. Is there not also the Holy Spirit who is God who is a messenger to humanity also. etc.

Elohym, Mighty ones.

 

[james57]

Do I have to spell it all out. This is the last one otherwise Study for yourself. If you don't care don't study it. If you think I am wrong all good that is your choice.

Jesus who is God is one of the chief princes. Is there not also the Holy Spirit who is God who is a messenger to humanity also. etc.

Elohym, Mighty ones.

I don't have to study what you would like me to, I would just end up in a blind ally.
Jesus is higher than the angels. That has already been quoted to you.
You can reason against it of course, it is not hard to reason anything to any conclusion you want to, but once again, your conclusions contradict the plain words of the bible

 

[gotime]

I think you can reason anything to mean anything you want. Some are better at that than others!

well the facts speak for themselves. All I did was bring them out because you skipped over them for some reason. I am not sure why, it could be cause you simply did not know what the words are. So I showed it. look it up.

But if you actually have something to offer that shows otherwise please enlighten me as to what the word means. but just saying what you have, well anyone can say that and still be wrong. So were is your evidence that I have simply tried to make it mean something it does not mean which is inferred by your statement.

 

[gotime]

I don't have to study what you would like me to, I would just end up in a blind ally.
Jesus is higher than the angels. That has already been quoted to you.
You can reason against it of course, it is not hard to reason anything to any conclusion you want to, but once again, your conclusions contradict the plain words of the bible

You need to actually read what I have said. Of course He is higher than the angels I never said He was not. Don't apply your views onto mine. I don't believe as I have clearly said that Michael is an angelic.

 

[james57]

well the facts speak for themselves. All I did was bring them out because you skipped over them for some reason. I am not sure why, it could be cause you simply did not know what the words are. So I showed it. look it up.

But if you actually have something to offer that shows otherwise please enlighten me as to what the word means. but just saying what you have, well anyone can say that and still be wrong. So were is your evidence that I have simply tried to make it mean something it does not mean which is inferred by your statement.

Im not going to spend great amounts of time going over reasoning that is obviously flawed. I did that a couple of days ago when you kept insisting Jesus was not the first to be raised from the dead when scripture clearly shows he was.
You disagree with your own denomination concerning that subject, and I wasn't aware the sda believe Michael is Jesus. I am perplexxed as why you are a minister in a denomination where you disagree with some of their fundamental points

 

[gotime]

Yes you don't have to study it if you don't want. I won't even try to make you. But if that is the case then don't sprout of about things you clearly do not know about. You have been caught not knowing what the words actually mean and instead of looking at it you simply say 'well anyone can make anything mean what they want' or sum such thing.

But what you have not done is offer any actual correction of what the words mean. and again you don't have to. but If you will not engage on a decent level of discussion on the topic then don't say anything.

 

[james57]

Yes you don't have to study it if you don't want. I won't even try to make you. But if that is the case then don't sprout of about things you clearly do not know about. You have been caught not knowing what the words actually mean and instead of looking at it you simply say 'well anyone can make anything mean what they want' or sum such thing.

But what you have not done is offer any actual correction of what the words mean. and again you don't have to. but If you will not engage on a decent level of discussion on the topic then don't say anything.

Its simple. Jesus is higher than the angels. Michael is an angel, call him archangel if you like, he is still; an angel.
You might as well term God an angel and go the whole hog as it were.

 

[gotime]

Im not going to spend great amounts of time going over reasoning that is obviously flawed. I did that a couple of days ago when you kept insisting Jesus was not the first to be raised from the dead when scripture clearly shows he was.
You disagree with your own denomination concerning that subject, and I wasn't aware the sda believe Michael is Jesus. I am perplexxed as why you are a minister in a denomination where you disagree with some of their fundamental points

Great amounts of time. Go to blue letter bible or some such place and it will take you less than a minute to see I am right and you spoke in ignorance.

 

[james57]

Great amounts of time. Go to blue letter bible or some such place and it will take you less than a minute to see I am right and you spoke in ignorance.

So why are you a minister in a denomination where you disagree with your denomination on some of its most fundamental points? Don't they mind?

 

[gotime]

Its simple. Jesus is higher than the angels. Michael is an angel, call him archangel if you like, he is still; an angel.
You might as well term God an angel and go the whole hog as it were.

Ok I will stop now this is fruitless. we will simply agree to disagree.

 

[gotime]

So why are you a minister in a denomination where you disagree with your denomination on some of its most fundamental points? Don't they mind?

I don't you have not been reading my posts right. I do agree with our fundamental teachings.

 

[james57]

I don't you have not been reading my posts right. I do agree with our fundamental teachings.

Well when I asked a sda minister what were the fundamental differences between sda and mainline churches, apart from which day you go to churchhe immediately said when people die they are dead until the resurrection of the dead takes place. You argue people die and go straight to Heaven where they must already have attained to eternal life
Can you tell me. Is it official sda doctrine Christ is Michael?

 

[gotime]

Well when I asked a sda minister what were the fundamental differences between sda and mainline churches, apart from which day you go to churchhe immediately said when people die they are dead until the resurrection of the dead takes place. You argue people die and go straight to Heaven where they must already have attained to eternal life
Can you tell me. Is it official sda doctrine Christ is Michael?

I never said I do not believe in the churches position on what happens when we die. I think you have maybe drawn that conclusion because of my view on Moses. am I right? Our church teaches that when a person dies they are gone dead till they are raised. Moses was dead until he was raised. Elijah went straight to heaven without seeing death. and of course those raised with Jesus.

Moses is a type of those who will see death and be raised. Elijah is a type of those who will be alive when Jesus comes and they with the resurrected righteous will rise to meet the Lord in the air.

As far as Michael yes it is the accepted reality for the SDA church. I can not say however that everyone that Goes to our church believes that.

 

[james57]

I never said I do not believe in the churches position on what happens when we die. I think you have maybe drawn that conclusion because of my view on Moses. am I right? Our church teaches that when a person dies they are gone dead till they are raised. Moses was dead until he was raised. Elijah went straight to heaven without seeing death. and of course those raised with Jesus.

Moses is a type of those who will see death and be raised. Elijah is a type of those who will be alive when Jesus comes and they with the resurrected righteous will rise to meet the Lord in the air.

As far as Michael yes it is the accepted reality for the SDA church. I can not say however that everyone that Goes to our church believes that.

If moses and Elijah are already in Heaven as you believe, how can they rise to meet the Lord in the air? They must already be with the Lord.
Can you tell me, is it your churches official position a few people went straight to Heaven when the died in OT times but most went to the grave and remained dead? I am just seeking to understand the official position. Does the sda church believe a few went straight to heaven when they died in the OT, or that all await the resurrection of the dead?

 

[gotime]

If moses and Elijah are already in Heaven as you believe, how can they rise to meet the Lord in the air? They must already be with the Lord.
Can you tell me, is it your churches official position a few people went straight to Heaven when the died in OT times but most went to the grave and remained dead? I am just seeking to understand the official position. Does the sda church believe a few went straight to heaven when they died in the OT, or that all await the resurrection of the dead?

We believe that Elijah went to heaven because that is what it says.

We believe most did not because that is what it says:

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

while some clearly went as the scriptures say. Most await the resurrection. Even David who was a man after Gods own heart did not go yet.

 

[james57]

We believe that Elijah went to heaven because that is what it says.

We believe most did not because that is what it says:

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

while some clearly went as the scriptures say. Most await the resurrection. Even David who was a man after Gods own heart did not go yet.

There ias only one instance in the OT where scripture states someone went to Heaven. As Jesus clearly states no one has ever entered heaven it is safe to assume there is more than one place referred to as Heaven in scripture, as someone pointed out there is more than one place referred to as paradise.

So Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, sammuel and the prophets(all mentioned in Heb 11 as per your quote) didn't go straight to Heaven, but Elijah did, the others await the resurrection of the dead.

Well I am not a seventh day Adventist am I!

 

[gotime]

There ias only one instance in the OT where scripture states someone went to Heaven. As Jesus clearly states no one has ever entered heaven it is safe to assume there is more than one place referred to as Heaven in scripture, as someone pointed out there is more than one place referred to as paradise.

So Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, sammuel and the prophets(all mentioned in Heb 11 as per your quote) didn't go straight to Heaven, but Elijah did, the others await the resurrection of the dead.

Well I am not a seventh day Adventist am I!

Sorry lost me a bit there from the second paragraph on, might be cause its late and I am getting tired. As for the first paragraph we disagree on your interpretation of Jesus' words in John 3. So I wont bother commenting on this as we both know we don't agree and there has been no hint of addressing the context so Ill Just leave it there. And as much as you have said there are multiple heavens I agree but I used the bible to show what they were. I have yet to see you use the bible for your view on what they are.

 

[james57]

We believe that Elijah went to heaven because that is what it says.

We believe most did not because that is what it says:

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

while some clearly went as the scriptures say. Most await the resurrection. Even David who was a man after Gods own heart did not go yet.

You used the above emboldened to prove most didn't go straight to Heaven, and you quoted from Heb 11 to prove it. It mentions the words. And these all..

These all included in the chapter you quoted from:

So Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, sammuel and the prophets(all mentioned in Heb 11 as per your quote) didn't go straight to Heaven, but Elijah did, the others await the resurrection of the dead

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

If moses and Elijah are already in Heaven as you believe, how can they rise to meet the Lord in the air? They must already be with the Lord.

Those yet alive on earth will rise, but those who are dead, and those (supposedly) alive in heaven, Christ will bring with him from heaven.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 1 Thessalonians 4:14​