Oh ok I think I get you now. Yes we believe that Most are still in the grave awaiting the resurrection at the coming of Christ. There are more scripture reasons than that one. I just used that one as something quick. although I don't think David is mentioned there, Peter mentions That David has not gone to heaven in Acts.
Some conclusions I've made and want to start a debate
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Sorry lost me a bit there from the second paragraph on, might be cause its late and I am getting tired. As for the first paragraph we disagree on your interpretation of Jesus' words in John 3. So I wont bother commenting on this as we both know we don't agree and there has been no hint of addressing the context so Ill Just leave it there.QUOTE]
Incorrect context does not trump the plain words of the bible:
[SUP] [/SUP]No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven – the Son of Man John 3:13
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him 1Cor15:20-23
And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. Col1:18
All of the above are in perfect alignment.
Incorrect context does not trump the plain words of the bible:
[SUP] [/SUP]No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven – the Son of Man John 3:13
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him 1Cor15:20-23
And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. Col1:18
All of the above are in perfect alignment.
Those yet alive on earth will rise, but those who are dead, and those (supposedly) alive in heaven, Christ will bring with him from heaven.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 1 Thessalonians 4:14
Notice the context tells us from where.
Those who sleep so where are there are they?
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
They are dead and they are resurrected from earth to meet Jesus in the air. but where once he gets them will he bring them?
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
He is bringing them to heaven as He promised he would come back to take them where he was going. This is why they meet Him in the air, they are not staying here.
Oh ok I think I get you now. Yes we believe that Most are still in the grave awaiting the resurrection at the coming of Christ. There are more scripture reasons than that one. I just used that one as something quick. although I don't think David is mentioned there, Peter mentions That David has not gone to heaven in Acts.
So Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, sammuel and the prophets(all mentioned in Heb 11 as per your quote) didn't go straight to Heaven, but Elijah did, the others await the resurrection of the dead
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Sorry lost me a bit there from the second paragraph on, might be cause its late and I am getting tired. As for the first paragraph we disagree on your interpretation of Jesus' words in John 3. So I wont bother commenting on this as we both know we don't agree and there has been no hint of addressing the context so Ill Just leave it there.QUOTE]
Incorrect context does not trump the plain words of the bible:
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven – the Son of Man John 3:13
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him 1Cor15:20-23
And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. Col1:18
All of the above are in perfect alignment.
Incorrect context does not trump the plain words of the bible:
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven – the Son of Man John 3:13
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. [SUP]23 [/SUP]But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him 1Cor15:20-23
And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. Col1:18
All of the above are in perfect alignment.
I would submit that without context it is anything but plain.
So you believe the following as they are all mentioned in Heb 11 as per your quote:
So Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, sammuel and the prophets(all mentioned in Heb 11 as per your quote) didn't go straight to Heaven, but Elijah did, the others await the resurrection of the dead
So Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, sammuel and the prophets(all mentioned in Heb 11 as per your quote) didn't go straight to Heaven, but Elijah did, the others await the resurrection of the dead
Its funny you said that, because plain words can be anything but plain if they are read without context. That is how media bares false witness by cutting interviews so that the context is missing and then the "plain" statements that are included actually say something other than what was actually being said.
I would submit that without context it is anything but plain.
I would submit that without context it is anything but plain.
I accept what I said that only a few have gone to heaven the rest wait for the resurrection. we believe that because that is what the bible says.
So Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, sammuel and the prophets(all mentioned in Heb 11 as per your quote) didn't go straight to Heaven, but Elijah did, the others await the resurrection of the dead
They are all in perfect alignment, the only person they are not plain to I would suggest is someone with a closed mind. The quotes from 1cor 15& Colosians 1:18 are in perfect alignment and endorse John 3:13
Christ is the first fruits from the dead as the scripture says, but He is not the first to actually rise from the dead as Moses and numerous others Old and new testament have been raised. however most of them saw death again. Except Elijah and Moses.
So clearly Paul is not saying that Christ is the first to physically come back to life. which I think you agree. But His resurrection is what all others are based on and contingent on wether past or future.
Either way I am not sure how you link those to John 3 please explain how they uphold the notion that no one has literally gone to heaven?
I must admit I don't totally get where you are coming form.
Christ is the first fruits from the dead as the scripture says, but He is not the first to actually rise from the dead as Moses and numerous others Old and new testament have been raised. however most of them saw death again. Except Elijah and Moses.
So clearly Paul is not saying that Christ is the first to physically come back to life. which I think you agree. But His resurrection is what all others are based on and contingent on wether past or future.
Either way I am not sure how you link those to John 3 please explain how they uphold the notion that no one has literally gone to heaven?
Christ is the first fruits from the dead as the scripture says, but He is not the first to actually rise from the dead as Moses and numerous others Old and new testament have been raised. however most of them saw death again. Except Elijah and Moses.
So clearly Paul is not saying that Christ is the first to physically come back to life. which I think you agree. But His resurrection is what all others are based on and contingent on wether past or future.
Either way I am not sure how you link those to John 3 please explain how they uphold the notion that no one has literally gone to heaven?
'''We believe that Elijah went to heaven because that is what it says.
We believe most did not because that is what it says:
Heb 11:39 And these(those mentioned in ch11) all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
while some clearly went as the scriptures say. Most await the resurrection. Even David who was a man after Gods own heart did not go yet.'''
So no one mentioned in Heb ch 11 went to heaven when they died according to your quote. These were mentioned in that chapter:
Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, sammuel and the prophets.
Yet you say Moses did go to Heaven. You are seriously confused
I must admit I don't totally get where you are coming form.
Christ is the first fruits from the dead as the scripture says, but He is not the first to actually rise from the dead as Moses and numerous others Old and new testament have been raised. however most of them saw death again. Except Elijah and Moses.
So clearly Paul is not saying that Christ is the first to physically come back to life. which I think you agree. But His resurrection is what all others are based on and contingent on wether past or future.
Either way I am not sure how you link those to John 3 please explain how they uphold the notion that no one has literally gone to heaven?
Christ is the first fruits from the dead as the scripture says, but He is not the first to actually rise from the dead as Moses and numerous others Old and new testament have been raised. however most of them saw death again. Except Elijah and Moses.
So clearly Paul is not saying that Christ is the first to physically come back to life. which I think you agree. But His resurrection is what all others are based on and contingent on wether past or future.
Either way I am not sure how you link those to John 3 please explain how they uphold the notion that no one has literally gone to heaven?
That holds perfectly with John 3:13 and no one having entered Heaven. In 1Cor 15 we read the resurrection of the dead comes through one man. Which man? However, your mind is closed, but you have no scripture to refute what the bible plainly states
The following is your post 256:
'''We believe that Elijah went to heaven because that is what it says.
We believe most did not because that is what it says:
Heb 11:39 And these(those mentioned in ch11) all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
while some clearly went as the scriptures say. Most await the resurrection. Even David who was a man after Gods own heart did not go yet.'''
So no one mentioned in Heb ch 11 went to heaven when they died according to your quote. These were mentioned in that chapter:
Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, sammuel and the prophets.
Yet you say Moses did go to Heaven. You are seriously confused
'''We believe that Elijah went to heaven because that is what it says.
We believe most did not because that is what it says:
Heb 11:39 And these(those mentioned in ch11) all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
while some clearly went as the scriptures say. Most await the resurrection. Even David who was a man after Gods own heart did not go yet.'''
So no one mentioned in Heb ch 11 went to heaven when they died according to your quote. These were mentioned in that chapter:
Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, sammuel and the prophets.
Yet you say Moses did go to Heaven. You are seriously confused
While you have not changed my main point, you have brought up a issue with an assumption I had made namely that Moses went to heaven based solely on that he was raised.
However It could be that I am misusing the text in Hebrews. Actually as I am writing this I realize I am. The promise is not heaven, The meek shall inherit the earth. Any way thanx for bringing that up I will look into it further.
Paul clearly stated Christ was the firstborn from the dead. Its plain and simple(obviously never to die again)
That holds perfectly with John 3:13 and no one having entered Heaven. In 1Cor 15 we read the resurrection of the dead comes through one man. Which man? However, your mind is closed, but you have no scripture to refute what the bible plainly states
That holds perfectly with John 3:13 and no one having entered Heaven. In 1Cor 15 we read the resurrection of the dead comes through one man. Which man? However, your mind is closed, but you have no scripture to refute what the bible plainly states
he speaks of the resurrection and he does say others after Him. oh I think I get it now. You think everyone else who got resurrected died again? is that it?
Hmmm Ok good point there. It never actually says as far as I am aware that Moses went to heaven. Only Elijah.
While you have not changed my main point, you have brought up a issue with an assumption I had made namely that Moses went to heaven based solely on that he was raised.
However It could be that I am misusing the text in Hebrews. Actually as I am writing this I realize I am. The promise is not heaven, The meek shall inherit the earth. Any way thanx for bringing that up I will look into it further.
While you have not changed my main point, you have brought up a issue with an assumption I had made namely that Moses went to heaven based solely on that he was raised.
However It could be that I am misusing the text in Hebrews. Actually as I am writing this I realize I am. The promise is not heaven, The meek shall inherit the earth. Any way thanx for bringing that up I will look into it further.
I know you wouldn't let me change your mind lol.
Some things are a bridge too far!!
I would suggest further study of the subject. You do seem to be contradicting yourself at the moment
I know you wouldn't let me change your mind lol.
Some things are a bridge too far!!
I know you wouldn't let me change your mind lol.
Some things are a bridge too far!!
Its always that way with people though. When we admit we don't understand something everyone is like awww so humble. then when we don't on another subject they are like, they are so closed minded.
The reality is I need to see evidence and reasonable arguments before I will change a position. it has nothing to do with not letting you change my mind. If you bring evidence that convinces me I will take it. otherwise I will not.
How? I don't see how you are jumping from Cor to John logically. Paul does not say in those verses anything about heaven.
he speaks of the resurrection and he does say others after Him. oh I think I get it now. You think everyone else who got resurrected died again? is that it?
he speaks of the resurrection and he does say others after Him. oh I think I get it now. You think everyone else who got resurrected died again? is that it?
But alas, you have set yourself in a position you cannot bring yourself to backtrack from.
Paul states Christ was the firstborn to rise from the dead. Simple statement, one you have to refuse to accept or admit you are wring.
Now I wonder how we should define the word entered?
Jesus said no one had ebntered heaven apart from he. Seems a plain statement, however, as you cannot admit your error, what must you reply?
I got the context wrong lol
Why not go and get some sleep it must be late in oz
You are in error on your assumption about me. I just don't fold without proper evidence. You should have got that by now at least as I have once before this admitted when I was shown to be in error.
Its always that way with people though. When we admit we don't understand something everyone is like awww so humble. then when we don't on another subject they are like, they are so closed minded.
The reality is I need to see evidence and reasonable arguments before I will change a position. it has nothing to do with not letting you change my mind. If you bring evidence that convinces me I will take it. otherwise I will not.
Its always that way with people though. When we admit we don't understand something everyone is like awww so humble. then when we don't on another subject they are like, they are so closed minded.
The reality is I need to see evidence and reasonable arguments before I will change a position. it has nothing to do with not letting you change my mind. If you bring evidence that convinces me I will take it. otherwise I will not.
You have plainly contradicted yourself in recent posts, If you would like I can produce them again to show you where you have done so
As you are all over the place with this subject at the moment I am not surprised at the comments you are now making. If only you accepted what is plainly written in the bible you would not have such confusion at all.
But alas, you have set yourself in a position you cannot bring yourself to backtrack from.
Paul states Christ was the firstborn to rise from the dead. Simple statement, one you have to refuse to accept or admit you are wring.
Now I wonder how we should define the word entered?
Jesus said no one had ebntered heaven apart from he. Seems a plain statement, however, as you cannot admit your error, what must you reply?
I got the context wrong lol
Why not go and get some sleep it must be late in oz
But alas, you have set yourself in a position you cannot bring yourself to backtrack from.
Paul states Christ was the firstborn to rise from the dead. Simple statement, one you have to refuse to accept or admit you are wring.
Now I wonder how we should define the word entered?
Jesus said no one had ebntered heaven apart from he. Seems a plain statement, however, as you cannot admit your error, what must you reply?
I got the context wrong lol
Why not go and get some sleep it must be late in oz
ANd please don't be so petty to assume that because I am in error on one thing that I am suddenly wrong on everything you disagree with me on. That is just silly.
I will not backtrack as you put it till I see a reason to do so. I find you a little immature some times in the way you deal with things. It seems when I admit I got something wrong you straight away use that to slam me on everything. That makes no sense to me and does not seem all that Christ like.
It is a simple statement its your reckoning of it that makes no sense to me and is still unclear to my mind. as said plain statements need context if you can't admit that then you don't have sound sense. Everyone knows context effects our words.
In fact I have admitted error when shown convincingly so, Yet you have never as I have seen on some things where you are clearly wrong. Like tonight where you did not actually know what the words meant in Jude. SO who is the closed minded one. The one who admits His error when shown convincingly or the one who wont admit even though the facts are unavoidable.
anyway good night. I do enjoy the chat.
I am going to do just that sleep. but as far as this position I see no evidence that convinces me. you would have to show me that I have got the context wrong. As yet you have not even attempted to do that. So I am left with what I have.
ANd please don't be so petty to assume that because I am in error on one thing that I am suddenly wrong on everything you disagree with me on. That is just silly.
I will not backtrack as you put it till I see a reason to do so. I find you a little immature some times in the way you deal with things. It seems when I admit I got something wrong you straight away use that to slam me on everything. That makes no sense to me and does not seem all that Christ like.
It is a simple statement its your reckoning of it that makes no sense to me and is still unclear to my mind. as said plain statements need context if you can't admit that then you don't have sound sense. Everyone knows context effects our words.
In fact I have admitted error when shown convincingly so, Yet you have never as I have seen on some things where you are clearly wrong. Like tonight where you did not actually know what the words meant in Jude. SO who is the closed minded one. The one who admits His error when shown convincingly or the one who wont admit even though the facts are unavoidable.
anyway good night. I do enjoy the chat.
ANd please don't be so petty to assume that because I am in error on one thing that I am suddenly wrong on everything you disagree with me on. That is just silly.
I will not backtrack as you put it till I see a reason to do so. I find you a little immature some times in the way you deal with things. It seems when I admit I got something wrong you straight away use that to slam me on everything. That makes no sense to me and does not seem all that Christ like.
It is a simple statement its your reckoning of it that makes no sense to me and is still unclear to my mind. as said plain statements need context if you can't admit that then you don't have sound sense. Everyone knows context effects our words.
In fact I have admitted error when shown convincingly so, Yet you have never as I have seen on some things where you are clearly wrong. Like tonight where you did not actually know what the words meant in Jude. SO who is the closed minded one. The one who admits His error when shown convincingly or the one who wont admit even though the facts are unavoidable.
anyway good night. I do enjoy the chat.
So the following needs to be put in its proper context?
No one has ever entered heaven except the one who came from Heaven, the son of man
Well, as that is all you can say to avoid what it does plainly state I am not surprised.
It doesn't surprise me that after being shown the contradictions in your thinking concerning this subject that have been highlighted you now attack me personally
Oh well
Sleep well
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We believe that Elijah went to heaven because that is what it says.
We believe most did not because that is what it says:
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
while some clearly went as the scriptures say. Most await the resurrection. Even David who was a man after Gods own heart did not go yet.
We believe most did not because that is what it says:
Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
while some clearly went as the scriptures say. Most await the resurrection. Even David who was a man after Gods own heart did not go yet.
My first question is this. What in your opinion was it about Elijah, as a person, or the way he lived that made God accept him into Heaven immediately upon him leaving this earth, but not those others mentioned? The others mentioned were commended for their faith, but according to your scriptures, they have to await the resurrection of the dead, while Elijah does not. Why is this?
My second question is this. If Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, David, sammuel and the prophets have to await the resurrection of the dead, is there anyone else in the OT who you believe God would have taken straight to Heaven? Who else can you think of God would have been more pleased with as to their life on earth than I have mentioned, and so immediately have been rewarded with Heaven? If you cannot think of anyone, is your belief that only one person left this earth in OT times and went to dwell with God in Heaven-Elijah?
You see, that doesn't seem right to me, not at all. But I know we see things very differently
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