The Immaculate Conception Error
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Everyone one is conceived "in iniquity". Who says so? David:
Psalm 51:5 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
What is iniquity?
As a result of the fall men are born "bent-to-self". The modern phrase for that is men are born knowing only selfishness and self-love. This is not an act, but a condition. Because I was born with self-love I think selfishly.
Because as an infant I thought selfishly I naturally was selfish. Everything thing we do from birth is based on self-interest and self-love. That makes us sinners.
Are infants transgressors? No! As I've stated many times transgression involves volition and that infants cannot do.
Because of what Christ has accomplished (see Rom 5:18) our condemnation "in Adam" has been legally reversed and therefore infants are born "justified". When they reach the age of accountability then they have to make a choice - for or against Christ. But until that time they are all safe in the doing & dying of Christ.
Psalm 51:5 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
What is iniquity?
As a result of the fall men are born "bent-to-self". The modern phrase for that is men are born knowing only selfishness and self-love. This is not an act, but a condition. Because I was born with self-love I think selfishly.
Because as an infant I thought selfishly I naturally was selfish. Everything thing we do from birth is based on self-interest and self-love. That makes us sinners.
Are infants transgressors? No! As I've stated many times transgression involves volition and that infants cannot do.
Because of what Christ has accomplished (see Rom 5:18) our condemnation "in Adam" has been legally reversed and therefore infants are born "justified". When they reach the age of accountability then they have to make a choice - for or against Christ. But until that time they are all safe in the doing & dying of Christ.
I have never said this, but I was sure you would nit pick on this one.
I was just quoting what scripture says, and if this verse was to be taken literally and in isolation(just as you have taken Ps 51 and 58 and Romans 7) it would mean that the old man never rears his head. However, we know that this is not true. It's just a matter of rightly dividing the Word of God.
As I have said earlier, and you chose to ignore: the old man is no longer charge in the life of a Christian.
Read Romans 7 again, with an unbiased mind. If someone else would have said the same things that Paul has said, you probably would have had a different viewpoint.
Romans 7 is about the person who is "carnal, sold under sin." Does that describe you?
In order to support your theory of OS, you conveniently ignore what Paul says in Romans 8. Here's an excerpt: 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.[SUP]8[/SUP]So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
So stop portraying a Christian as a schizophrenic hybrid of a person.
I was just quoting what scripture says, and if this verse was to be taken literally and in isolation(just as you have taken Ps 51 and 58 and Romans 7) it would mean that the old man never rears his head. However, we know that this is not true. It's just a matter of rightly dividing the Word of God.
As I have said earlier, and you chose to ignore: the old man is no longer charge in the life of a Christian.
Read Romans 7 again, with an unbiased mind. If someone else would have said the same things that Paul has said, you probably would have had a different viewpoint.
Romans 7 is about the person who is "carnal, sold under sin." Does that describe you?
In order to support your theory of OS, you conveniently ignore what Paul says in Romans 8. Here's an excerpt: 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.[SUP]8[/SUP]So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
So stop portraying a Christian as a schizophrenic hybrid of a person.
Originally Posted by valiant
I think we need to be very careful before being dogmatic about things that Scripture has not revealed. Scripture nowhere tells us what happens to babes who die, nor does it refer to an age of accountability. We argue from our inadequate understanding of what is involved. How do we know what goes on in the spirit of a child? How do we know when they can discern good and evil? If the wicked go astray from the womb how do we know how God will judge their situation? We arrogantly assume that we are in a position to know based on OUR idea of fairness. But we are not. Many of God's decisions seem unfair. What you posit results in as many problems as it seems to solve. Nor does it answer the question as to how God sees some babies as 'clean' and some as 'unclean'. If the difference did not matter why did Paul not say so?
That is the implication of 1 Cor 7.
Ask God
He said it.Is what where I stand on election? lol
No it would not.
you tear it apart and choose bits that suit you
hopefully true. nevertheless he has a lot to say
Nonsense.
it describes all as they are in themselves. Paul's fleshly sins were not the same as yours. He bewailed the fact that his flesh sometimes kept him from praying, and even from witnessing. To him those were gross sins.
what a silly thing to say.
that is the carnal mind of the unbeliever. Not the same thing for he has no counterbalance..
Paul was not a schizophrenic hybrid but he certainly experienced both Romans 7 and Romans 8. The flesh pulls against the Spirit, and the Spirit pulls against the flesh. That is true of everyone born of the Spirit.
"sin is not imputed when there is no law." Romans 5:13
"where there is no law, there also is no violation." Romans 4:15
"So then as through one transgression (Adam's) ] there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness (Christ, the last Adam) there resulted justification of life to all men. Romans 5:18 NASB
"But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love (agape) with which He loved us,even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)...." Eph 2:4,5
Christ has reversed our condemnation "in Adam" and therefore justified all men "in Christ". Here Paul is not writing about justification received by faith. He is stating that "in Christ" all men have been legally justified unto eternal life.
"where there is no law, there also is no violation." Romans 4:15
"So then as through one transgression (Adam's) ] there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness (Christ, the last Adam) there resulted justification of life to all men. Romans 5:18 NASB
"But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love (agape) with which He loved us,even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)...." Eph 2:4,5
Christ has reversed our condemnation "in Adam" and therefore justified all men "in Christ". Here Paul is not writing about justification received by faith. He is stating that "in Christ" all men have been legally justified unto eternal life.
I was just quoting what scripture says, and if this verse was to be taken literally and in isolation(just as you have taken Ps 51 and 58 and Romans 7) it would mean that the old man never rears his head.
What a terrible picture of a newborn you guys are painting: A newborn who has an evil glint in his eye, who actually has teeth and who can actually speak (lies) as he comes out of the womb. Not only that, but he spews out venom and will not listen to anyone who instructs him. Is that a baby or a demon?
Furthermore, you isolate that verse from the rest of the chapter to prove your false beliefs of OS.
Taking your literal interpretation and continuing with the rest of the chapter, one notices that around the "wicked baby" are waiting snake charmers and cunning enchanters to bring him under control, but he will not listen.
Furthermore (going by your literal interpretation), the narrator is praying that God may smite this "wicked baby" and break his teeth and cut him into pieces and take him away in a whirlwind.
It is prophesied in the end of the chapter, that God will destroy this "wicked baby" of yours, and avenge the baby for all its wickedness. Then the righteous will rejoice and wash their feet in the blood of the wicked.
Noooo! Please give me a break! Open your eyes, and see that you, and millions of others,have been taken for a ride.
You have nothing to say, besides this!
Don't rope in the rest of mankind with yourself!
Please focus on your fleshly sins before implying something unpleasant about others. I don't consider myself to be sinless, and I have nothing to boast about. I am indebted to God for the grace given to me (or for acting towards me in grace, as you would probably put it)!
He never mentioned those things in Romans 7. You are making it up. Please read Romans 7:14-25 again. You will notice the word "do" many times. Paul is specifically talking about 'sins of commission,' and not 'sins of omission' as you are indicating above.
You have nothing to say, besides this!
What a sorry picture of a believer you are cutting: one who is stuck between the flesh(balance) and the Spirit(counterbalance), while he goes on swaying from one side to the other living a defeated life, trampling over Jesus all the time.
No one is denying the fact that the flesh and the Spirit are contrary to each other. However, the Romans 7 man is "sold under sin" and in bondage to it; whereas the Romans 8 man "walks not after the flesh, but after the Spirit," and is free.
Galatians 5:16-25 makes a clear distinction between a man who walks after the flesh and a man who walks after the Spirit. You are either one or the other.
There is no believer who is of an intermediate or hybrid type. That's a lie of Satan, and an insult to Jesus.
Don't rope in the rest of mankind with yourself!
Please focus on your fleshly sins before implying something unpleasant about others. I don't consider myself to be sinless, and I have nothing to boast about. I am indebted to God for the grace given to me (or for acting towards me in grace, as you would probably put it)!
He never mentioned those things in Romans 7. You are making it up. Please read Romans 7:14-25 again. You will notice the word "do" many times. Paul is specifically talking about 'sins of commission,' and not 'sins of omission' as you are indicating above.
You have nothing to say, besides this!
What a sorry picture of a believer you are cutting: one who is stuck between the flesh(balance) and the Spirit(counterbalance), while he goes on swaying from one side to the other living a defeated life, trampling over Jesus all the time.
No one is denying the fact that the flesh and the Spirit are contrary to each other. However, the Romans 7 man is "sold under sin" and in bondage to it; whereas the Romans 8 man "walks not after the flesh, but after the Spirit," and is free.
Galatians 5:16-25 makes a clear distinction between a man who walks after the flesh and a man who walks after the Spirit. You are either one or the other.
There is no believer who is of an intermediate or hybrid type. That's a lie of Satan, and an insult to Jesus.
Gen 8:21
21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth;
Deut 1:39
39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.
Eccl 7:29
29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
Isaiah 7:16
16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
Then an infant would be able to reason and know the difference between right and wrong, conscientiously. But that's not the case.
I don't know, do you assume? Why try to label me - to distract from the quoted text? Take the text as it reads.
All men have been saved "in Christ", but not all will accept this truth. For those who reject Christ they remain under law.
There you go again.