The Immaculate Conception Error

[Cassian]

No He didn't assume our fallen nature, scripture is very clear that Jesus was without sin.

This is the fallacy of the OS theory. Christ did in fact assume our fallen human nature. He could not have healed our nature unless He took on that very same nature. The problem of OS is that their theory states man is born a sinner or with a sin nature or was imputed with sin. All are false premeses. Christ as all men are born mortal, innocent. But in that mortal nature He shared all our temptations, lived our life, but did not sin. That is the ONLY difference between we mere mortals and the Incarnate nature of Christ who was both man and God.

Any attempt to change the essence of man will deny man his salvation. Both OS theory denies that man could be healed because they need to change man's nature pertaining to Christ. The RCC tried to remedy their problem by creating an new theory, just as bad, IC. Both are false and unscriptural.

 

[valiant]

It should be noted here that salvation is referencing the work of Christ. Christ saved mankind, the world from death and sin. There is no particularization here. Your citation of John 6:39 is referencing all that was given Christ. What was given Christ to redeem? All things, everything in heaven and on earth, Col 1:20. This has absolutely nothing to do with one's obtaining eternal life by and through faith. Whether we attain eternal life or not is all determined by man. That was the whole purpose of God creating man in the first place, then Christ recreating man, the new man, so that man could freely join in union with Him.

lo as ever you talk such rubbish. Salvation is the ACTIVITY of God and of Christ. They do not 'provide salvation' as a commodity. They SAVE. It is nonsense to speak of Christ's salvation as an it, as something out there to be utilised. Christ SAVES. He does not offer a commodity called salvation.

By the unmerited compassion and mercy and love of God YOU ARE SAVED, through faith, and that is not of yourselves. It is the gift of God and not of works, lest any man should boast (Eph 2.8-9). And what does His saving work consist of? We are HIS WORKMANSHIP, created in Christ Jesus unto doing good (Eph 2.10). Thus God works on us and recreates us in Christ.

what a miserable salvation you have on offer.

 

[onlinebuddy]

Jesus was counted among the transgressors. But that did not make Him a transgressor. He bore OUR sin in His own body on the tree.



It is irrelevant to the question of OS.


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Jesus was counted among the transgressors. But that did not make Him a transgressor. He bore OUR sin in His own body on the tree.

I Agree. Proponents of the doctrine of OS believe that just as Jesus was numbered with transgressors, all men were numbered with the wicked, conceived in sin, estranged from the womb, etc...(someone said this in a post above)
My point was this: Just as being numbered with transgressors did not make Jesus a transgressor; similarly being numbered with the wicked does not make man guilty for Adam's Original Sin.

It is irrelevant to the question of OS.

It is absolutely relevant, because the proponents of OS believe that Adam's Original Sin was imputed or "transferred" to all men, when scripture never says so.

 

[onlinebuddy]

Of course it is talking about all men. Or are you saying some are born wicked and some are born righteous?. ALL HAVE SINNED and come short of the glory of God. Therefore all are wicked. The Psalmist's point is exactly that. That ALL go astray from the womb, speaking lies.



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You are just looking at things through the OS spectacles.
I repeat: Psalm 58 is not about all men. Everything in the Bible is for us, but not about us.

Psalm 58 is not about us. It is talking about those who have deliberately chosen the wrong path despite knowing the truth: the wicked, the doomed, the unrepentent, the defiers of God; the unsaved.

All men are not born wicked. None are born wicked.
The expressions being estranged from the womb, going astray from birth, speaking lies as soon as they are born, etc..are hyperboles attributed to those who have gone astray despite knowing the truth. It's just a matter of rightly dividing the Word of God.

Yes, and all have sinned; no doubt about it, and they we have to give account for our personal individual sins, not for the Original Sin of Adam.

Once we repent and are forgiven, we are no longer counted as wicked(the old man) or among the wicked. We are reckoned or counted as, or counted among the righteous(the new man).

 

[onlinebuddy]

Roman 7.14 onwards was Paul's present experience when he wrote. 'I AM carnal, sold under sin.' He still had the mind of the flesh combatting the mind of the Spirit, as we all have.

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Would you also say that 1 Timothy 1:15 was Paul's present?

 

[valiant]

It should be noted here that salvation is referencing the work of Christ. Christ saved mankind, the world from death and sin. There is no particularization here.

Of course there is particularisation. There is particularisation inn all Christ does. 'My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me.' Christ did not save mankind from sin and death. He made it possible for them to be saved from sin and death. But each individual has to be saved. Salvation is the activity of God and of Jesus Christ upon individual men. He SAVES them, He dos not just 'offer them salvation'.

Y

our citation of John 6:39 is referencing all that was given Christ.

If only you took the trouble to read the context. 'Whom the Father GIVES Me will come to Me, and whoever comes I will not cast out'. Thus the given come as individuals to Christ to be saved. How can this refer to the giving of all things in Heaven and earth? That is totally ridiculous. It is a clear call to individuals. They come to Him because they have been given to Him by the Father. And it is these of whom He spoke in John 6.39. Sometimes I question your intelligence.

What was given Christ to redeem? All things, everything in heaven and on earth, Col 1:20.

I have just shown you how ridiculous that suggestion is. LOOK AT THE CONTEXT. Don't go picking irrelevant verses out of the blue. It has nothing to do with all things in heaven and earth. It is individuals who have been given to Christ. Those whom the Father draws (6.44).

T

his has absolutely nothing to do with one's obtaining eternal life by and through faith.

It has EVERYTHING to do with obtaining eternal life. It is those who are given to Jesus Christ who receive eternal life. That is why they will be raised up at the last day. 'Heaven and earth' will not be raised up at the last day. It is talking about bodily resurrection!!!!

Do you EVER look at context? 'This is the Father's will Who sent Me, that of all whom He has given me I should lose nothing but should raise him up at the last day. This is the will of the Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes on Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. Who are to be raised up at the last day? Those given to Jesus by the Father who will have received eternal life. How can you possibly say that it has nothing to do with receiving eternal life? It is in the next verse.

Whether we attain eternal life or not is all determined by man.

It is determined by God. Those who receive eternal life are those given to Him by the Father. That is quite clear from John 6.39--40. As a consequence of them being given to Jesus by the Father they believe on the Son and receive eternal life.

That was the whole purpose of God creating man in the first place, then Christ recreating man, the new man, so that man could freely join in union with Him.

looking at it from the human side, yes. But not looking at it from the divine side as John 6.39-40 makes clear. Men come and receive eternal life because they have been given to him by the Father..

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

Roman 7.14 onwards was Paul's present experience when he wrote. 'I AM carnal, sold under sin.' He still had the mind of the flesh combatting the mind of the Spirit, as we all have.

Would you also say that 1 Timothy 1:15 was Paul's present?

Yes Paul saw himself as the chief of sinners at that time. That's what it SAYS. It was proof of his spiritual progress. He recognised how unworthy he was

 

[valiant]

I Agree. Proponents of the doctrine of OS believe that just as Jesus was numbered with transgressors, all men were numbered with the wicked, conceived in sin, estranged from the womb, etc...(someone said this in a post above)

They were NOT numbered with the wicked. They were wicked. Where does it say they were numbered with the wicked?. I repeat THEY WERE WICKED. Different story.

My point was this: Just as being numbered with transgressors did not make Jesus a transgressor; similarly being numbered with the wicked does not make man guilty for Adam's Original Sin.

No one said it did. But no one else was merely numbered with the wicked. THEY WERE WICKED. I am not merely numbered with the wicked, I AM WICKED. AND SO ARE YOU. So stop wriggling

It is absolutely relevant, because the proponents of OS believe that Adam's Original Sin was imputed or "transferred" to all men, when scripture never says so.

I have never said it was 'imputed' or 'transferred' to men. It was born in them because of the nature of their parents. No one transferred sin to Cain. It was in his nature because he was born of Adam. Thus all are born sinners, and are estranged from the womb. They go astray as soon as they are born speaking lies.

 

[valiant]

You are just looking at things through the OS spectacles.

Don't be absurd.

I repeat: Psalm 58 is not about all men.

Of course it is about all men. All men are wicked.

Psalm 58 is not about us. It is talking about those who have deliberately chosen the wrong path despite knowing the truth: the wicked, the doomed, the unrepentent, the defiers of God; the unsaved.

LOL so they were like that when they were born? Case proven

All men are not born wicked. None are born wicked.

All are born wicked. They go astray as soon as they are born speaking lies. They were conceived in sin, and shapen in iniquity.

The expressions being estranged from the womb, going astray from birth, speaking lies as soon as they are born, etc..are hyperboles attributed to those who have gone astray despite knowing the truth.

You can give them what name you like but they describe WHAT THEY WERE LIKE WHEN THEY WERE BORN. Otherwise words don't mean anything. And if they were born like that, so were we.

It's just a matter of rightly dividing the Word of God.

Absolutely. You should try it some time.

Yes, and all have sinned; no doubt about it, and they we have to give account for our personal individual sins, not for the Original Sin of Adam.

You twist what people say. Who said anything about the original sin of Adam? Not me. They sinned because they inherited Adam's nature, his sinful nature.

Once we repent and are forgiven, we are no longer counted as wicked(the old man) or among the wicked. We are reckoned or counted as, or counted among the righteous(the new man).

LOL so you have admitted that we are the wicked until we are forgiven. So 'the wicked' does apply to us. Case proven.

 

[onlinebuddy]

well when I was a natural man I understood the difference. So you are clearly wrong.


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But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.[1 Cor 2:14]

You consider every innocent baby who has been created pure, to be wicked and guilty and doomed. You go further to incorporate your warped logic that: the kindest thing we could do would be to let these innocent children die young. I know you are using a hypothetical viewpoint; but how about being kind to little babies? No parent would appreciate such thoughts!
What is the purpose of every soul being born on earth? Is the purpose to be saved from hell, or to experience Christ and his completed work?

You consider all mankind to be a doomed from the womb for some sin that they did not commit, just because of a few poetic and exaggerated verses. This is very poor theological premise.

You take Paul's past, and make that to be his present. Very weak hermeneutics! You imply that every believer struggles against some law and against their uncontrollable fleshly desires inherited from Adam, despite being redeemed by the blood of Christ. And so great and constant is that struggle that every believer does exactly opposite of what they desire to do, because of the Romans 7 syndrome. Isn't there any difference between the unsaved "old man" and the saved "new man?"

It would do you good if you could unlearn some of the misinterpretations that you have held to for so long, and read the Bible with an unbiased mind.

Bye for now, and blessings!

 

[Cassian]

lo as ever you talk such rubbish. Salvation is the ACTIVITY of God and of Christ. They do not 'provide salvation' as a commodity. They SAVE. It is nonsense to speak of Christ's salvation as an it, as something out there to be utilised. Christ SAVES. He does not offer a commodity called salvation.

By the unmerited compassion and mercy and love of God YOU ARE SAVED, through faith, and that is not of yourselves. It is the gift of God and not of works, lest any man should boast (Eph 2.8-9). And what does His saving work consist of? We are HIS WORKMANSHIP, created in Christ Jesus unto doing good (Eph 2.10). Thus God works on us and recreates us in Christ.

what a miserable salvation you have on offer.

You have exhibited another assumption of the error of OS. Christ overcame the fall for mankind, for the world. It is as scripture calls it salvation from death and sin. In other words it is the atonement. Christ was reconciling the world to God. It does not involve man personally. It touches man ONLY regarding his mortal nature. It is this atonement, or the work of Christ that makes it possible for individual man to be united to Christ by and through faith. This is the whole purpose of man's existence. That existence and purpose was precluded because of the fall. Christ corrects the fall, so that man and God can fulfill the purpose of why He created us.

 

[Cassian]

Valiant,

Of course there is particularisation. There is particularisation inn all Christ does. 'My sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me.' Christ did not save mankind from sin and death. He made it possible for them to be saved from sin and death. But each individual has to be saved. Salvation is the activity of God and of Jesus Christ upon individual men. He SAVES them, He dos not just 'offer them salvation'

ONLY because you are conflating two very distinct aspects of our "salvation". I noticed also that most, because they conflate the two speak of salvation as that of attaining eternal life which is what you are doing here.
Christ's atonement was for the world, all men who are part of this world. All men were given life. This has already been stated and scripture cited many times. All men will be raised in the last day. There will be no exceptions. All sin was atoned for, nothing was ommitted, I John 2:2.

If only you took the trouble to read the context. 'Whom the Father GIVES Me will come to Me, and whoever comes I will not cast out'. Thus the given come as individuals to Christ to be saved. How can this refer to the giving of all things in Heaven and earth? That is totally ridiculous. It is a clear call to individuals. They come to Him because they have been given to Him by the Father. And it is these of whom He spoke in John 6.39. Sometimes I question your intelligence.

Context is everything. However you are inserting a false supposition into it thus arrive at an incorrect solution. Christ was given all things, nothing in this world was excluded, read carefully Col 1:15-20. Then in the context of John, all those that were given to Christ, which is every single human being, those that choose to come to me I will not cast out. Vs 39 is also about everything that was given to Him, He will raise every single human being and will lose none. Kinda difficult to lose any when He assumed our mortal nature just so that He could raise it.

Your next verse 40 speaks of those that believe and see, they will be raised to eternal life. Huge difference.

You are exhibiting all the traits of personal interpretation of scripture when one accepts false teachings.

I have just shown you how ridiculous that suggestion is. LOOK AT THE CONTEXT. Don't go picking irrelevant verses out of the blue. It has nothing to do with all things in heaven and earth. It is individuals who have been given to Christ. Those whom the Father draws (6.44).

Again, ONLY of one denies what Christ did and or conflats what He did and man's response. You seem intent on conflating the two.

It has EVERYTHING to do with obtaining eternal life. It is those who are given to Jesus Christ who receive eternal life.

Salvation from death and sin is NOT obtaining eternal life. ONLY those that believe and see will receive eternal life. Read vs 40 of John 6.

You jumb right over vs 39 which is an Incarnational verse, a salvation verse but vs 40 is an eternal life verse. A huge difference.

Christ draws all men to Himself, John 12:32.

It is determined by God. Those who receive eternal life are those given to Him by the Father. That is quite clear from John 6.39--40. As a consequence of them being given to Jesus by the Father they believe on the Son and receive eternal life.

That is what Reformed theology says, but that contradicts scripture. The ONLY ones who receive eternal life are those that believe.

looking at it from the human side, yes. But not looking at it from the divine side as John 6.39-40 makes clear. Men come and receive eternal life because they have been given to him by the Father..

NO, from both sides. One is not different from the other. John 6:39 is all men being raised, same reason as Rom 5:18, I Cor 15:22 states. Believers would not be possible unless Christ first overcomes the fall, death and sin. Once Christ reconciles the world, now man is able to again be joined with Him and they do so by responding to His universal call to all men, come. Man is free to choose whether to accept that call to union or to reject it. God in no way determines who will receive eternal life. Man is the sole determinator of his eternal destiny.

 

[onlinebuddy]

Where does it say they were numbered with the wicked?.
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It's mentioned here...

Originally Posted by BradC

If Jesus was numbered with the transgressors (Luke 22:37) surely we are all numbered with the wicked, conceived in sin, estranged from the womb, having gone astray from birth speaking lies (Psalm 58:3). This is impossible for the mind of the natural man to grasp this kind of imputation

 

[onlinebuddy]

I am not merely numbered with the wicked, I AM WICKED. AND SO ARE YOU. So stop wriggling

I WAS wicked, and maybe more than you. That was my past. I have now repented of my sins, and have been saved by His grace.

This is how Paul describes me now:
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.[2 Cor 5:17]

This is how John describes me now:
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:[John 1:12]

If you have accepted Christ and have repented, please see yourself as the Bible sees you.

 

[valiant]

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.[1 Cor 2:14]

But it would be a mistake to think that they could not understand them intellectually. What they do not do is receive them.

You consider every innocent baby who has been created pure, to be wicked and guilty and doomed.

LOL I never make such judgments. I leave such things in Gods hands. Too many people are dogmatic about things they know nothing about.

You go further to incorporate your warped logic that: the kindest thing we could do would be to let these innocent children die young. I know you are using a hypothetical viewpoint; but how about being kind to little babies? No parent would appreciate such thoughts!

If they were thinking logically they would agree with me. Tell me, how can a hypothetical idea not be kind to little babies? Ah, I see, you mean hypothetically kind lol . If they were otherwise going to Hell I would think I was being very kind.

What is the purpose of every soul being born on earth? Is the purpose to be saved from hell, or to experience Christ and his completed work?

Some one, some the other if the Bible is to be believed

You consider all mankind to be a doomed from the womb for some sin that they did not commit, just because of a few poetic and exaggerated verses. This is very poor theological premise.

I consider them sinful from the womb, and indeed from conception. I said nothing about them being doomed. I leave such things in God's hands. Where the Scripture is silent I am silent.

You take Paul's past, and make that to be his present. Very weak hermeneutics!

Both Scriptures are in the present tense. So hermeneutically speaking they mean NOW. LOL do you know have any idea what hermeneutics means?

You imply that every believer struggles against some law and against their uncontrollable fleshly desires inherited from Adam, despite being redeemed by the blood of Christ.

No, Paul implied it, not me.

And so great and constant is that struggle that every believer does exactly opposite of what they desire to do, because of the Romans 7 syndrome.

At some point in their lives after becoming a Christian, yes.

Isn't there any difference between the unsaved "old man" and the saved "new man?"

you are distorting to Scripture again. All SAVED people have an old man and a new man.

It would do you good if you could unlearn some of the misinterpretations that you have held to for so long, and read the Bible with an unbiased mind.

that's what people who have no real arguments always say LOL

 

[valiant]

It's mentioned here...

Originally Posted by BradC

If Jesus was numbered with the transgressors (Luke 22:37) surely we are all numbered with the wicked, conceived in sin, estranged from the womb, having gone astray from birth speaking lies (Psalm 58:3). This is impossible for the mind of the natural man to grasp this kind of imputation

sorry I had never read the Gospel of Brad. Is it Old or New Testament? lol

I wanted t know where it was mentioned in the Bible. But now at least I know where you get your odd ideas from lol

 

[valiant]

I WAS wicked, and maybe more than you. That was my past. I have now repented of my sins, and have been saved by His grace.

but you are still basically wicked. You watch. It will soon come out.

This is how Paul describes me now:

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.[2 Cor 5:17]

So you never sin? What a wicked thing to say.

This is how John describes me now:
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:[John 1:12]

So you never sin? Do you know that Scripturally makes you a liar (1 John 1.10). So you are wicked after all

If you have accepted Christ and have repented, please see yourself as the Bible sees you.

Actually the Bible doesn't see me as anything. But it does say, 'all have sinned and come short of the glory of God'. and it keeps on saying it. So it certainly sees me as wicked, even though it also sees me as a child of God justified by His grace.

 

[onlinebuddy]

I have never said it was 'imputed' or 'transferred' to men. It was born in them because of the nature of their parents. No one transferred sin to Cain. It was in his nature because he was born of Adam. Thus all are born sinners, and are estranged from the womb. They go astray as soon as they are born speaking lies.

You may have never directly said it, but you are implying the same all over the thread, the above quoted words included.

 

[Roberth]

Actually the Bible doesn't see me as anything. But it does say, 'all have sinned and come short of the glory of God'. and it keeps on saying it. So it certainly sees me as wicked, even though it also sees me as a child of God justified by His grace.

"In Christ" I have new humanity, free from indwelling sin and mortality, in the heavenly places. See Col 1:13 & Eph 2:6 NASB Hence "in Him" I am a new creation, but of myself (as a child of Adam) I'm a sinner growing in grace.[/SIZE]

 

[onlinebuddy]

Don't be absurd.



Of course it is about all men. All men are wicked.




LOL so they were like that when they were born? Case proven



All are born wicked. They go astray as soon as they are born speaking lies. They were conceived in sin, and shapen in iniquity.



You can give them what name you like but they describe WHAT THEY WERE LIKE WHEN THEY WERE BORN. Otherwise words don't mean anything. And if they were born like that, so were we.



Absolutely. You should try it some time.



You twist what people say. Who said anything about the original sin of Adam? Not me. They sinned because they inherited Adam's nature, his sinful nature.



LOL so you have admitted that we are the wicked until we are forgiven. So 'the wicked' does apply to us. Case proven.

Don't be absurd.

Just presenting an unbiased view of the Bible. You find it absurd, as you are seeing through your OS spectacles

Of course it is about all men. All men are wicked.

Psalms 58 is definitely not about all men. No one is born wicked. Your understanding is warped and not consistent with what scripture teaches. This is because your premise is poetry. All men become wicked when they decide to disobey.

LOL so they were like that when they were born? Case proven

All men are not like that (wicked) when they are born. And you haven't proven anything, apart from the fact that you choose to identify yourself with the wicked and the unrepentant.

All are born wicked. They go astray as soon as they are born speaking lies. They were conceived in sin, and shapen in iniquity.

No point harping on the same thing. Don't generalize. If you have chosen to go astray and speak lies since birth, don't rope in the rest of humanity with yourself.

You can give them what name you like but they describe WHAT THEY WERE LIKE WHEN THEY WERE BORN. Otherwise words don't mean anything. And if they were born like that, so were we.

They were born like that, and you agree to be born like that. Don't put the entire humanity in the same basket as the one you are in, and thus rationailze your sins.

You twist what people say. Who said anything about the original sin of Adam? Not me. They sinned because they inherited Adam's nature, his sinful nature.

You're implying the same here and all over the thread. Don't try to be cheeky!

LOL so you have admitted that we are the wicked until we are forgiven. So 'the wicked' does apply to us. Case proven.

You don't seem to understand the "new man." Hope you will understand it someday. And you haven't proven anything, apart from the fact that you choose to identify yourself with the wicked and the unrepentant.