Hyper grace

[ladylynn]

Yes Dr. ladylynn..Good synopsis....learning about "differences" is helping me to grow in the grace of our Lord...

There is a difference between "sin" which is in the flesh and "sinning". which is an action ..us yielding to the flesh ( this does not affect our inner man which has been created in righteousness and holiness - no going from a sheep back to a goat..etc )

There is a difference between being in the Light ( believer in Christ ) and being in darkness (unbeliever )

There is a difference between being in the flesh ( unbeliever ) and being in the Spirit ( believer in Christ )


There is a difference between walking according to the flesh ( yielding to "sin" in the flesh which is in our body ) and walking according ( yielding to the Spirit within the believer AKA new creation in Christ ) to the Spirit.

We have in our flesh which is in our body the parasite called sin...the body which houses flesh in it....also houses our new nature in Christ..the inner man..the new creation.

The real us only has ONE nature..it';s the nature of God in us because we are in Christ. The flesh in our body is not the real us.

think of it "sin" as a foreign "entity" within us in our flesh in our body.

In genesis 4:7 God says that sin is crouching at the door and "it's" ( the hebrew word here for "its" is masculine ).....as if it is an "entity"...not a person but something that speaks to us..if you will..most likely the nature of our enemy..just a theory...lol

We are left powerless to do anything about the flesh by our own will-power..we do need to have His life in us change us..

sin is reigned in Paul's flesh....BUT we are not in the flesh....we are in Christ..so once we have knowledge of us in Christ and no condemnation....we learn to walk by the Spirit..

We are left powerless to do anything about the flesh by our own will-power..we do need to have His life in us change us....self-control is a fruit of the Spirit - not the flesh's willpower...different things..one is a product of the flesh..the other is a fruit..

This is where this topic gets confusing., well not so much the topic but what each person is actually posting. I'm not sure what you are saying about Paul if you are not saying he is a giant in the faith and a great teacher. A man who learned about what the flesh seeks and what the Spirit in us seeks to do.
When Paul wrote Romans., I see a man who is explaining for us the struggle we feel as we learn how to walk in the Spirit. We have walked in the flesh for so long it takes time to find out how to walk in the Spirit. To find out what the promises are and how to grow in the faith. To know the height and length and breath of the love of God in Christ. For me it is about revelation.

To know we are loved as sons and that nothing can pluck us out of His hand. Not even our confusion about our old fleshly thought processes. I'm glad God used Paul to put that in Romans 7and8. It sure helped me when I condemned myself as believer. Sin does desire to have dominion over us but Jesus took care of that. We no longer have to submit to a habit. We learn to walk out our new man and have all we need to do so. We do it all by faith in the finished work of Jesus. Always looking to Him and not to our feelings. Not sure if you are telling me something different than that Grace777 and the jokes with the Dr. ladylynn references. Having a good sense of humor I'd like to know what you mean but that.

Anyway., quite often I'm thrown by some of the posts here and try to keep things as simple as possible.
Before salvation we had no choice but to sin. Now that we are saved we have every reason and help not to sin. And when we do sin, we have an Advocate with the Father. Jesus. As far as sin being a noun., yes, I have heard that before and can't say I've studied it out but the basic idea of it makes sense.

A teacher who is since died named Bill Gillham a his wife Annabelle had a ministry that was about grace. My first intro to such info. He discussed the places in the Bible that the word 'sin' is more a noun than a verb. Verses that called sin 'it' or in sentences like for 'sin' shall desire to... Dr. Gillham said that satan is the great counterfeiter. Anyway., am getting sidetracked here.

Anyway., am just trying to share in as simple terms as I can. It is obvious that as many people as there are there are also different teachings and ideas. Some are fun to engage in if they help us to understand more about Jesus. I'm all for it. We do not have 2 natures in us imo. The old nature is dead and only a memory. A very deep memory that still effects us. The enemy uses it very strategically when we are ignorant of the Bible and who we are IN Christ.

 

[Grace777x70]

I'm sorry Peter...but I don't understand what you are trying to say. Give me scriptures for what you are saying so that we are speaking the same language.

If you are referring to "sin" and "sinning" that you copied in your original post..I will answer that...with scripture

There is a difference between "sin" ( which dwells in our flesh ) and "sinning"

"sin" is the resident parasite....(for want of a better term )...this is not us! We have a new nature now..the old man was crucified with Christ

Romans 7:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

Romans 7:20-21 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. [SUP]21 [/SUP] I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.

Paul says that it is NOT him that does wrong ( he is referring to his new nature in Christ as our new man in Christ cannot sin..it has Christ's life, righteousness, holiness, redemption in it )...what does the wrong in him is the "sin" that is in his flesh he gives in to.

In Romans chapters 5 6 7 8 "sin" the noun is used 48 times ..referring to the sin principal in his flesh..."sinning" which is the act of giving in to the "sin" principal is a verb = action It is used only 4 times. Try reading romans with looking at the above thoughts and things come together.

That's the story about sin and sinning...lol

Again..sin is bad!!! we do not want to do this and grace..true grace teaches us how to live godly in this present world...but it is all Christ and His finished work in us that effects changes.

You make things too complicated. Sinful deeds are just that deeds.
They are a sign of spiritual blindness, not understanding the basic principles of life and love.

Jesus talks about walking in the light for a reason. People know money by itself is pointless, or that flash car or enormous house, but they still gain great pleasure making others envy. It is the joy each moment brings, the knowing love and acceptance by the creator that makes me sing. But if inside you are a mess, things wired up all wrong, it is easier to do the act and make people believe you have something of value. But pull away the veil and too often there is nothing behind.

Jesus was making this point all the time. If you sell your integrity you loose everything, but if you buy righteousness of the Kingdom through faith in Jesus you have eternity and real life in the here and now.

Sin is always about selling this reality short. The poor who desire wealth so much and gain a little are so bigotted their answer to this expression of life is "They only say that because they know they will never be rich and have just given up, losers."

Now in this discussion it is like discussing about an incurable disease. If you can see the nature of sin, because you know what love is, it looses its power, because it gives you nothing, it is that simple.

 

[Grace777x70]

I was referring to your friend that said you were doing a dissertation on grace and I joked with him about we can called you Dr. now...that's where the Dr. ladylnn came from..sorry..I thought you saw that post....things can get confusing..I was trying to use humor.

I found it..whew!..that was almost a career!

Re: Hyper grace

LOL...we shall call her Dr. ladylynn from now on...

Originally Posted by kohelet

Thanks! Lynn's bringing me up-to-speed. It's been a couple of days though; I think she's doing a dissertation.



​

 

[ladylynn]

It means the flesh is hostile ..in opposition to God....so it means my flesh is separated from God?.. ( actually that is true..)....not that they are going to hell....again..how much sin is too much to have God lie to us when He said He would never leave us or forsake us?..in some cases..it's the length of your hair..or it's if you drink wine..or go to movies... ( hardly ever gluttony though as we love doing that..shhhh..don't tell God that.)

Ephesians 2:16 (KJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

In Christ the enmity is not the issue...the issue is the flesh ..unless we understand the new creation in Christ..what happened to us in our inner man...what it means to be circumcised by Christ in our heart and flesh...we will continue to mix the Covenants up and try to marry the old wine with the new..thus ruining both as Jesus talked about.

Yes, very much agree with your post Grace777., the question of sonship must be settled in our minds before we can hope to move forward in victory. An heir is someone who has these things., he is not waiting for them in Christ. We are joint heirs with Jesus we have Him., we have all that He died to give us. But alas, many Christians are not aware of their position as sons and are still walking as anything but. The son can access the Father all the time, where those who are not sons must make an appointment.

 

[Grace777x70]

I have read Bill Gillmans book..I didn't quite understand it back then..I found a couple of videos that helped me tho with the "sin" in the flesh..thing..


Here is a short 6 minute video that helped me to see some of these things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNdsZt8rthw


Here is one..at the 27:30 mark he talks about it..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyWi5ErcbZ0

 

[james57]

This is where this topic gets confusing., well not so much the topic but what each person is actually posting. I'm not sure what you are saying about Paul if you are not saying he is a giant in the faith and a great teacher. A man who learned about what the flesh seeks and what the Spirit in us seeks to do.
When Paul wrote Romans., I see a man who is explaining for us the struggle we feel as we learn how to walk in the Spirit. We have walked in the flesh for so long it takes time to find out how to walk in the Spirit. To find out what the promises are and how to grow in the faith. To know the height and length and breath of the love of God in Christ. For me it is about revelation.

To know we are loved as sons and that nothing can pluck us out of His hand. Not even our confusion about our old fleshly thought processes. I'm glad God used Paul to put that in Romans 7and8. It sure helped me when I condemned myself as believer. Sin does desire to have dominion over us but Jesus took care of that. We no longer have to submit to a habit. We learn to walk out our new man and have all we need to do so. We do it all by faith in the finished work of Jesus. Always looking to Him and not to our feelings. Not sure if you are telling me something different than that Grace777 and the jokes with the Dr. ladylynn references. Having a good sense of humor I'd like to know what you mean but that.

Anyway., quite often I'm thrown by some of the posts here and try to keep things as simple as possible.
Before salvation we had no choice but to sin. Now that we are saved we have every reason and help not to sin. And when we do sin, we have an Advocate with the Father. Jesus. As far as sin being a noun., yes, I have heard that before and can't say I've studied it out but the basic idea of it makes sense.

A teacher who is since died named Bill Gillham a his wife Annabelle had a ministry that was about grace. My first intro to such info. He discussed the places in the Bible that the word 'sin' is more a noun than a verb. Verses that called sin 'it' or in sentences like for 'sin' shall desire to... Dr. Gillham said that satan is the great counterfeiter. Anyway., am getting sidetracked here.

Anyway., am just trying to share in as simple terms as I can. It is obvious that as many people as there are there are also different teachings and ideas. Some are fun to engage in if they help us to understand more about Jesus. I'm all for it. We do not have 2 natures in us imo. The old nature is dead and only a memory. A very deep memory that still effects us. The enemy uses it very strategically when we are ignorant of the Bible and who we are IN Christ.

Hi Lynn
I hope you don't mind me interjecting here.
I sense you might be uneasy at the thought Paul all his christian life didn't follow after the spirit and could not do the good he wanted to do( follow after the spirit) but the evil he didn't want to do this he kept on doing( following after the flesh)

If I may. If we accept Paul is speaking of his life as a Pharisee in the contentious verses this does NOT mean we expect a christian to be perfect in the flesh. There is a huge difference between where the man spoken of in rom ch7:14-25 was and sinless perfection and seasoned christians should be somewhere in the middle in my view.
That of course is just my view. But the core of Paul's message also in my view was:
Sin shall not be your master for you at not under law but under grace. I would strongly suggest sin was the master of the person mentioned in ch7:14-25'of romans. Therefore according to Paul that person must have been living under the law
It is tricky to word it correctly isn't it so we neither give the impression of a licence to sin nor do we get legalistic. However I think you agree grace is the empowerment to see much victory over sin
In rom 7-7-11 Paul gives a personal example from his own life as to how when he was living under the law as a Pharisee sin grew in him. Certainly at that time ge would have been controlled by the flesh and unable to do that which he wanted to do. You could summarise the problem of verses 7-11 as:
But I see another law at work within the members of my body waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members 7:23

In my view in 7:14-25 Paul is explaining the consequences of 7:7-11

That is my view

God bless

 

[ladylynn]

I was referring to your friend that said you were doing a dissertation on grace and I joked with him about we can called you Dr. now...that's where the Dr. ladylnn came from..sorry..I thought you saw that post....things can get confusing..I was trying to use humor.

I found it..whew!..that was almost a career!

Re: Hyper grace

LOL...we shall call her Dr. ladylynn from now on...

Originally Posted by kohelet

Thanks! Lynn's bringing me up-to-speed. It's been a couple of days though; I think she's doing a dissertation.



​

Not to worry Grace777, I would have believed you even if you couldn't find the post. Yes, tons of stuff gets mis read or misunderstood here. We must give GRACE daily to each other here on these threads. Blessings!

 

[Grace777x70]

Hey!..I just remembered Bill Gillham's book.."Lifetime Guarantee"..is that the one you were referring to?

 

[james57]

I'm sorry Peter...but I don't understand what you are trying to say. Give me scriptures for what you are saying so that we are speaking the same language.

If you are referring to "sin" and "sinning" that you copied in your original post..I will answer that...with scripture

There is a difference between "sin" ( which dwells in our flesh ) and "sinning"

"sin" is the resident parasite....(for want of a better term )...this is not us! We have a new nature now..the old man was crucified with Christ

Romans 7:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

Romans 7:20-21 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. [SUP]21 [/SUP] I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.

Paul says that it is NOT him that does wrong ( he is referring to his new nature in Christ as our new man in Christ cannot sin..it has Christ's life, righteousness, holiness, redemption in it )...what does the wrong in him is the "sin" that is in his flesh he gives in to.

In Romans chapters 5 6 7 8 "sin" the noun is used 48 times ..referring to the sin principal in his flesh..."sinning" which is the act of giving in to the "sin" principal is a verb = action It is used only 4 times. Try reading romans with looking at the above thoughts and things come together.

That's the story about sin and sinning...lol

Again..sin is bad!!! we do not want to do this and grace..true grace teaches us how to live godly in this present world...but it is all Christ and His finished work in us that effects changes.

Yes Paul says it I not he that does it but sin in him.
The problem is in those verses sin is Paul's master and Paul is sins slave. And no matter how much exegesis you do, with how ever many bible verses you bring forth that fact cannot change.
If sin was Paul master all his christian life a he was sins slave all his christian life how would that fit in with the following:

For sin SHALL NOT be your master for you are not under law but under grace tom 6:14

 

[Grace777x70]

I have heard that Romasn 7:14-25 can be called.. "Paul's discovery of the parasite that is in him - which shows up when the law is given"...I thought that was a good description...and it made me laugh.....I thought. .what?. .I have a parasite in me?....that can't be good!!...lol

 

[ladylynn]

Hi Lynn
I hope you don't mind me interjecting here.
I sense you might be uneasy at the thought Paul all his christian life didn't follow after the spirit and could not do the good he wanted to do( follow after the spirit) but the evil he didn't want to do this he kept on doing( following after the flesh)

If I may. If we accept Paul is speaking of his life as a Pharisee in the contentious verses this does NOT mean we expect a christian to be perfect in the flesh. There is a huge difference between where the man spoken of in rom ch7:14-25 was and sinless perfection and seasoned christians should be somewhere in the middle in my view.
That of course is just my view. But the core of Paul's message also in my view was:
Sin shall not be your master for you at not under law but under grace. I would strongly suggest sin was the master of the person mentioned in ch7:14-25'of romans. Therefore according to Paul that person must have been living under the law
It is tricky to word it correctly isn't it so we neither give the impression of a licence to sin nor do we get legalistic. However I think you agree grace is the empowerment to see much victory over sin
In rom 7-7-11 Paul gives a personal example from his own life as to how when he was living under the law as a Pharisee sin grew in him. Certainly at that time ge would have been controlled by the flesh and unable to do that which he wanted to do. You could summarise the problem of verses 7-11 as:
But I see another law at work within the members of my body waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members 7:23

In my view in 7:14-25 Paul is explaining the consequences of 7:7-11

That is my view

God bless

Hi James., not at all, the more the merrier!! When Paul wrote Romans he for sure was writing it as a son giving advice and not a lost religious pharisee who had Christians killed and from that viewpoint. When he was a pharisee of the pharisees he was not saved and could not even compare what he did then to what he does now. He wouldn't relate his unsaved thoughts to help train his brothers and sisters in Christ and give info on how to be like Christ. I don't see that James57. Think about it. Why give believers advice from an unsaved man's viewpoint back when he used to be unsaved? As a pharisee he was blind. So whatever he saw had no spiritual merit. He was dead in trespasses and sins.

The only thing he could use his old Pharisaical life experiences for would be to say what it was like to be unsaved and how zealous he was as a religious man.

As an unbeliever he could not see a different law in his members waging war against the law of his mind and making him a prisoner of the law of sin which is in his members... Unsaved people do not struggle with the HolySpirit living in them., they are not saved. They do not have a new nature.

As a believer Paul says wretched man that I am! WHO WILL SET ME FREE FROM THE BODY OF THIS DEATH????? THANKS BE TO GOD THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD!!! I MYSELF WITH MY MIND AM SERVING THE LAW OF GOD, BUT ON THE OTHER, WITH MY FLESH, THE LAW OF SIN.

This is the struggle of the saved man when he sees Jesus and Jesus goodness and sweetness and purity and then sees himself with his old habits of the flesh and his thought life etc.. We all go through this and we can be so grateful that God used Paul to write down the things Paul went through in light of the truth of his redemption in Christ.

Than Amplified Bible puts it this way... Oh unhappy and pitiable and wretched man that I am! Who will release and deliver me from the shackles of this body of death? O thank God! HE will!! through Jesus Christ the Anointed One our Lord!! So then indeed I, of myself with the mind and heart, serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul didn't stay that way in his shock over his struggle and not knowing how to be delivered., he got through it and continued on. Read Romans and see the victory he had over sin. He talks about being adopted and sonship. About relationship with God now being Father...Abba Father. A very intimate term.

So I must say from what is here, Paul is certainly writing this from a saved man's perspective and not an unsaved pharisee. I never worry about grace being a license to sin James57. Grace gives us every reason not to sin. The more we learn of Christ the less fearful we are and the more freedom we have to rest in Him and not to worry over the events of the world or our life in it.

The Christian life is not a horrible drudgery with only short snippets of joy. The joy of the Lord is supposed to be our strength not our worry. So many Christians i meet here are so hard pressed to 'do' what Jesus has already done. It is a joy to share about grace in the life.

 

[james57]

I have heard that Romasn 7:14-25 can be called.. "Paul's discovery of the parasite that is in him - which shows up when the law is given"...I thought that was a good description...and it made me laugh.....I thought. .what?. .I have a parasite in me?....that can't be good!!...lol

Absolutely. Romans 7:14-25 is Paul describing what knowledge of the law/ being under the law did for it revealed the sin:

Once i was alive without the law but when the commandment came sin( consciousness) sprang to life and i died.......
The commandment which was ordained to life( if I obeyed it) instead brought death( for I could not keep it)

As you said. Romans 7:14-25 is NOT speaking I someone following after the holy spirit

 

[Grace777x70]

This verse in Romans is coming "alive" to me.....the "sin" here is the parasite in me..ie my body ( which is not me.. it is not my new nature. )

We are the righteousness of God in Christ!

Romans 8:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

I am so excited!....Hey james57...you and I both come from Pentecostal backgrounds....we could roll on the floor together..lol "they used to call us holy rollers...but I never actually saw anyone roll on the floor yet..lol )

 

[james57]

Hi James., not at all, the more the merrier!! When Paul wrote Romans he for sure was writing it as a son giving advice and not a lost religious pharisee who had Christians killed and from that viewpoint. When he was a pharisee of the pharisees he was not saved and could not even compare what he did then to what he does now. He wouldn't relate his unsaved thoughts to help train his brothers and sisters in Christ and give info on how to be like Christ. I don't see that James57. Think about it. Why give believers advice from an unsaved man's viewpoint back when he used to be unsaved? As a pharisee he was blind. So whatever he saw had no spiritual merit. He was dead in trespasses and sins.

The only thing he could use his old Pharisaical life experiences for would be to say what it was like to be unsaved and how zealous he was as a religious man.

As an unbeliever he could not see a different law in his members waging war against the law of his mind and making him a prisoner of the law of sin which is in his members... Unsaved people do not struggle with the HolySpirit living in them., they are not saved. They do not have a new nature.

As a believer Paul says wretched man that I am! WHO WILL SET ME FREE FROM THE BODY OF THIS DEATH????? THANKS BE TO GOD THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD!!! I MYSELF WITH MY MIND AM SERVING THE LAW OF GOD, BUT ON THE OTHER, WITH MY FLESH, THE LAW OF SIN.

This is the struggle of the saved man when he sees Jesus and Jesus goodness and sweetness and purity and then sees himself with his old habits of the flesh and his thought life etc.. We all go through this and we can be so grateful that God used Paul to write down the things Paul went through in light of the truth of his redemption in Christ.

Than Amplified Bible puts it this way... Oh unhappy and pitiable and wretched man that I am! Who will release and deliver me from the shackles of this body of death? O thank God! HE will!! through Jesus Christ the Anointed One our Lord!! So then indeed I, of myself with the mind and heart, serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul didn't stay that way in his shock over his struggle and not knowing how to be delivered., he got through it and continued on. Read Romans and see the victory he had over sin. He talks about being adopted and sonship. About relationship with God now being Father...Abba Father. A very intimate term.

So I must say from what is here, Paul is certainly writing this from a saved man's perspective and not an unsaved pharisee. I never worry about grace being a license to sin James57. Grace gives us every reason not to sin. The more we learn of Christ the less fearful we are and the more freedom we have to rest in Him and not to worry over the events of the world or our life in it.

The Christian life is not a horrible drudgery with only short snippets of joy. The joy of the Lord is supposed to be our strength not our worry. So many Christians i meet here are so hard pressed to 'do' what Jesus has already done. It is a joy to share about grace in the life.

I must disagree Lynn as an unbeliever Paul certainly knew the law he was the most ardent of Pharisees and in his mind he desperately wanted to obey the ten commandments, nothing else could be possible.
Therefore in ch7,:7-11 he would most definitely have known his members waging war on the law of his mind.
Paul's core Gospel message was people knowing they had a righteousness apart from the law, it is only natural Paul would wish to explain what personally happened to him when he lived under the law.

But the core point remains. Paul wrote romans when he was a very mature christian. Did Paul really live his whole christian life unable to do the good he wanted to do( follow after the spirit) but rather the evil he did not want to do/ what he hated( follow after the flesh) this he kept on doing?

That is completely out of step with his core message. No victory over sin there. A perfect description though of Paul the Pharisee in rom 7:7-11

 

[ladylynn]

Grace777, I listened to Paul Washer and agree with a lot of what he says. I think he is well worth listening too. It's the same with Andrew Wommack. I do not agree with all he says but he is well worth listening too as well. He holds to the idea that a believer can walk away from God and I totally disagree.,he also doesn't believe in the rapture of the church and the bride of Christ being taken up before God's wrath is poured out. I am firm on both those things for the same reason., there is no condemnation and Jesus salvation for us is greater than we ever could imagine.

As someone who has survived depression and anxiety, I know the mind can be easily effected by so many things. If anyone has watched the movie or read the book by Charles Dickens 'A Christmas Carol' he rightly says even a piece of potato or smiggin of beef can cause him to see things. Just think how if we have something in our eye how that just takes all our focus. Or if we eat something that effects us negatively. Different medications and even coffee effect our moods. Look how pain can effect us. So many things effect the human being. I'm soooo thankful that God has taken care of that and we are not supposed to think of ourselves as strong and independent from God. But totally dependent on Him for all we have.

We still live in these fleshly bodies and they are easily effected by so many outside influences. Is it any wonder God loves us unconditionally and also wants us to love others that way? I can understand Paul's anxiety at the time he wanted so badly to follow Jesus and saw how he was not self sufficient. And that this plan God has for us to follow Jesus is the only way. He is the Good Shepherd who leads the sheep.

And we can pity those who do not have Him and are sheep without a Shepherd. Like Jesus looked and saw the people were sheep without a Shepherd and He had pity and love for them. Another reason the love and grace of Christ is something we need to learn about and stand on as our strength.

 

[james57]

This verse in Romans is coming "alive" to me.....the "sin" here is the parasite in me..ie my body ( which is not me.. it is not my new nature. )

We are the righteousness of God in Christ!

Romans 8:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

I am so excited!....Hey james57...you and I both come from Pentecostal backgrounds....we could roll on the floor together..lol "they used to call us holy rollers...but I never actually saw anyone roll on the floor yet..lol )

Yes your body is dead because of sin, however in those verses in romans you yourself have stated sin reigned in Paul, sin was his master and he was sins slave. You have also stated in those verses Paul did not follow after the spirit.
I would pause and reflect on all of this if I was you before in exuberance responding
I mean that very, very kindly. You need to spend a lot of tine going over your statements and asking yourself

Was that really Paul the mature christian?

 

[Grace777x70]

Amen!...thank you for recommending Paul Washer...I will look him up..do you remember what the title of his talk would be>,,he's on youtube?

Wommack I have his commentary on my bible software...and I like a lot of his stuff...I'm with you on the part where he says a believer can walk away from God..he does use the cavet that he has never seen it. I think he is trying to reconcile Hebrews 10..but there are other views on that too....good ones that are in line with grace....I have never heard him talk about the other stuff you referenced.

yes..God is good!

Grace777, I listened to Paul Washer and agree with a lot of what he says. I think he is well worth listening too. It's the same with Andrew Wommack. I do not agree with all he says but he is well worth listening too as well. He holds to the idea that a believer can walk away from God and I totally disagree.,he also doesn't believe in the rapture of the church and the bride of Christ being taken up before God's wrath is poured out. I am firm on both those things for the same reason., there is no condemnation and Jesus salvation for us is greater than we ever could imagine.

As someone who has survived depression and anxiety, I know the mind can be easily effected by so many things. If anyone has watched the movie or read the book by Charles Dickens 'A Christmas Carol' he rightly says even a piece of potato or smiggin of beef can cause him to see things. Just think how if we have something in our eye how that just takes all our focus. Or if we eat something that effects us negatively. Different medications and even coffee effect our moods. Look how pain can effect us. So many things effect the human being. I'm soooo thankful that God has taken care of that and we are not supposed to think of ourselves as strong and independent from God. But totally dependent on Him for all we have.

We still live in these fleshly bodies and they are easily effected by so many outside influences. Is it any wonder God loves us unconditionally and also wants us to love others that way? I can understand Paul's anxiety at the time he wanted so badly to follow Jesus and saw how he was not self sufficient. And that this plan God has for us to follow Jesus is the only way. He is the Good Shepherd who leads the sheep.

And we can pity those who do not have Him and are sheep without a Shepherd. Like Jesus looked and saw the people were sheep without a Shepherd and He had pity and love for them. Another reason the love and grace of Christ is something we need to learn about and stand on as our strength.

 

[Euphemia]

I haven't read this lengthy thread, but anyone who rails against someone like Joseph Prince, I have to question why. The term, "hyper grace" is pejorative and lacking in real understanding of what God's grace actually does for us. Far too many Christians are in dire need of a revelation of God's grace.


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[Grace777x70]

I believe that Romans 7:14-25 is just talking about Paul describing a "situation"..it has nothing to do with being a mature Christian at all....it has nothing to do with the fact that we ..in our new man do have dominion over sin ....he is just describing the body/flesh/sin part...nothing to do with the spirit of man where Christ is.

He is just describing a "situation of the body"..he is not thinking about walking in the spirit ..this situation is in our flesh/body when we are saved or not saved.."sin"..the noun..the entity is in the flesh whether we are saved or not...I mam with ladylnn that Paul was saved s he sadi..I concur with the law ( doing good ) with my inner man but I am incapable of doing anything about on my own.

I see no conflict at all with romans 7:14-25 and romans 6:14.

Joseph Prince and Farley in the video both believe the same thing ( which does not mean it's correct just because they think so..lol )

Did you have a chance to see any of the videos that speak to this area?

Yes your body is dead because of sin, however in those verses in romans you yourself have stated sin reigned in Paul, sin was his master and he was sins slave. You have also stated in those verses Paul did not follow after the spirit.
I would pause and reflect on all of this if I was you before in exuberance responding
I mean that very, very kindly. You need to spend a lot of tine going over your statements and asking yourself

Was that really Paul the mature christian?

 

[ladylynn]

I must disagree Lynn as an unbeliever Paul certainly knew the law he was the most ardent of Pharisees and in his mind he desperately wanted to obey the ten commandments, nothing else could be possible.
Therefore in ch7,:7-11 he would most definitely have known his members waging war on the law of his mind.
Paul's core Gospel message was people knowing they had a righteousness apart from the law, it is only natural Paul would wish to explain what personally happened to him when he lived under the law.

But the core point remains. Paul wrote romans when he was a very mature christian. Did Paul really live his whole christian life unable to do the good he wanted to do( follow after the spirit) but rather the evil he did not want to do/ what he hated( follow after the flesh) this he kept on doing?

That is completely out of step with his core message. No victory over sin there. A perfect description though of Paul the Pharisee in rom 7:7-11

??Not sure where you are coming from James57., When Paul was an unbeliever he thought being a good man who followed the law was giving him good points with God. He was totally sure his self righteousness that he was pleasing to God...that even his persecution of Christians was done in God's name and God was just soooo happy with him. He was wrong. All his righteousness's were as filthy rags... if he thought he was A-OK that didn't matter., he was dead and wrong. He wasn't trying to BE sincere he already thought he was sincerely right. no struggle for him.

1 Cor.2:14 But the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised..discerned

A pharisee can be ardent and willing to die for his belief but that makes no difference as far as the truth is concerned., his sincerity won't get him approved before God. Paul did not struggle with the Spirit in him and he was very happy to walk his religious walk. That is until Jesus met him on the road and blinded him.

This is important to see. Only a believer can give spiritual truth but an unsaved person can't. In his unsaved state, Paul can't give out the mind of Christ since He didn't have it nor did he struggle with it until after he got saved. Romans is a book about saved people to saved people. We don't need to know how an unsaved man feels since we have already been there. We need to know how to think as the new. We need to learn how to conform to the image of Christ. So am a bit confused why you think Paul was writing from an unsaved man's point of view when he wrote Romans being led by the HolySpirit.