The Immaculate Conception Error

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Oct 3, 2015
1,266
7
0
Sin is an act not a state of being.
So you are limiting sin to an outward action?

What about "coveting"? It's not a act, but a cherished desire based in selfishness. That too is sin.

Theologically it is impossible to be born with sin
Again, you are defining sin as an action. We are born "bent-to-self" or selfish. We are born in love with ourselves. This bent is what the Bible terms iniquity. Iniquity is condition, not an act.
 
Dec 5, 2015
973
12
0
Then he was NOT like us at all. What nature did He raise from the dead? It could not be ours?

Obviously you have no understanding of the meaning of the Incarnation. You have man having one nature, Christ who is supposed by be like us in all things, except did not sin, has a different nature than man. Explain just how Christ saved us when He is not like us at all. You have two entirely different natures. Very inconsistent. You still are espousing a meaningless Incarnation, a meaningless redemption since one is not like the other.

Try again.
Religion dulls one's ability to comprehend some major, yet somple truths. The incarnation is not hard to grasp, yet the religious among us seek to make it into something far flung.
 
Last edited:
Oct 3, 2015
1,266
7
0
The gospel on one hand is simple and on the other hand it is very complex. What can I say?
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
1,960
7
0
Roberth,

So you are limiting sin to an outward action?
What about "coveting"? It's not a act, but a cherished desire based in selfishness. That too is sin.
no, an action. Coveting is something man does. Coveting is NOT a state of being in man.

Again, you are defining sin as an action. We are born "bent-to-self" or selfish. We are born in love with ourselves. This bent is what the Bible terms iniquity. Iniquity is condition, not an act.
Something derived by man. We are born with the propensity to do all sin. but we are not born with selfishnesss or any other sin. What you are trying to say is that we have a nature that sins therefore is a sinful nature. That is a huge difference between having a sin nature, or actually being born with sin.
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
1,960
7
0
Religion dulls one's ability to comprehend some major, yet somple truths. The incarnation is not hard to grasp, yet the religious among us seek to make it into something far flung.
I think that you are describing yourself. You obviously cannot answer the question so you come up with this nonsubstantive statement.
 
Dec 5, 2015
973
12
0
Benn
I think that you are describing yourself. You obviously cannot answer the question so you come up with this nonsubstantive statement.
Nope. Maybe you'd like to try again.
 
Oct 3, 2015
1,266
7
0
We are born with the propensity to do all sin...
NO, we are born slaves to our love of self (iniquity). Paul calls this indwelling sin "the law of sin" or "sin dwelling in me." (see Rom 7:17)
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
1,960
7
0
NO, we are born slaves to our love of self (iniquity). Paul calls this indwelling sin "the law of sin" or "sin dwelling in me." (see Rom 7:17)
Which is saying the same thing.
The point is that man is not sin, nor does he have a sin nature. He is NOT born a sinner. His nature is mortal and it is this mortality that causes us to sin. That is stated in Rom 5:21 and I Cor 15:56. It is why it is possible for Christ to be born of a human being taking on our exact human nature, our mortality. It is this assumed nature that He healed by giving it life through His resurrection.

The false theory of Original Sin as developed by Augustine has caused the entire western world to misunderstand the fall and Christ's salvation of mankind from that fall. Theories like IC abound by Protestants to solve their misunderstanding of the fall to get away from the fact their theory has man born with a sin nature, with sin, and being sinner by birth.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
Which is saying the same thing.
The point is that man is not sin, nor does he have a sin nature. He is NOT born a sinner. His nature is mortal and it is this mortality that causes us to sin. That is stated in Rom 5:21 and I Cor 15:56. It is why it is possible for Christ to be born of a human being taking on our exact human nature, our mortality. It is this assumed nature that He healed by giving it life through His resurrection.

The false theory of Original Sin as developed by Augustine has caused the entire western world to misunderstand the fall and Christ's salvation of mankind from that fall. Theories like IC abound by Protestants to solve their misunderstanding of the fall to get away from the fact their theory has man born with a sin nature, with sin, and being sinner by birth.
Mortality doesn't cause people to sin. That's like saying longevity causes people stay healthy... longevity doesn't cause people to be healthy any more than mortality causes people to sin. Romans 5:12 says that sin leads to death but grace leads to eternal life.
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
1,960
7
0
Mortality doesn't cause people to sin. That's like saying longevity causes people stay healthy... longevity doesn't cause people to be healthy any more than mortality causes people to sin. Romans 5:12 says that sin leads to death but grace leads to eternal life.
actually, Rom 5:12 states that Adam's sin led to the condemnation of death. It that death that is hereditary, is passed on by birth which is why we are all mortals.

Rom 5:21 states emphatically that sin is due to death. As does I Cor 15:56. It is the primary reason why Christ came, to defeat death and sin. Both are tools of the devil, Heb 2:14, I John 38. Christ died with our mortal nature so that by His resurrection He gave life to the world and mankind. It is why believers have always believed in the resurrection of the dead.
You have no text that can refute this from scripture without twisting the meaning to support some errant view.

Such texts as Rom 5:18, I Cor 15:12-22, II Tim 1:10, Heb 2:9 all state that death is what Christ defeated. We mortals sin so easily because of our mortal nature. There is nothing in scripture to change it to something else outside of false teachings of men, such as Augustine and many others that followed.

Your statement of sin leads to death, post Adam's fall, only applies to spiritual death. And spiritual death or eternal life the opposite could not even take place except that Christ defeated Satan's power of death.
 
Oct 3, 2015
1,266
7
0
He is NOT born a sinner.
We've been over and over this. Men are not born transgressors, but they are born sinners. A sinner one whose mind and nature are in harmony and therefore all they can produce is sin. Read Eph 2:3 NIV

His nature is mortal and it is this mortality that causes us to sin.
Jesus as the Son of man (not the Son of God) was mortal, yet He never sinned. Therefore your theory is wrong.
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
1,960
7
0
We've been over and over this. Men are not born transgressors, but they are born sinners. A sinner one whose mind and nature are in harmony and therefore all they can produce is sin. Read Eph 2:3 NIV



Jesus as the Son of man (not the Son of God) was mortal, yet He never sinned. Therefore your theory is wrong.
Never stated they were transgressors but the use of the word sinners does just that. We cannot be born sinners unless we committed a sin prior to birth. We are actually born innocent. But our mortal nature, the flesh influences us to sin thus we become sinners. Jesus was both, Son of God and Son of Man.

If you can try to prove it wrong but it has been the historical understanding of the Incarnation for 2000 years. It has undergone three Ecumenical Councils dealing with incorrect ideas regarding the Incarnation.
You are correct that we are born mortals, but that does not make us sinners otherwise Christ would have been a sinner as well. Your theology is not consistent. The only difference between Christ's humanity and ours is that we sin but He did not. He had the ability to sin, but did not sin. If He did not have the ability to sin, then the temptations are a worthless exercise and His keeping the law perfectly would have been just theater, not reality.
 
Oct 3, 2015
1,266
7
0
We cannot be born sinners unless we committed a sin prior to birth.
All I can tell you is that an infant's developing mind and nature are in harmony with each other from conception. All that infant knows is the love of self, not agape. That makes him or her a sinner, but not a transgressor. Transgression requires volition.
 
Oct 3, 2015
1,266
7
0
You are correct that we are born mortals, but that does not make us sinners otherwise Christ would have been a sinner as well.

We are mortals because we have human natures that knows only self-love. Since we are conceived without the Holy Spirit residing in our minds our natures and minds are in harmony. Hence we are born slaves to sin (the love of self).

Christ was conceived spiritually alive, which mean His mind was under the control of the Holy Spirit. Therefore the nature that He assumed by assuming us was never allowed to control His mind. Hence He never sinned, not even by a thought. Yet, because He assumed our nature He was mortal.
 
Oct 3, 2015
1,266
7
0
All I can tell you is that an infant's developing mind and nature are in harmony with each other from conception. All that infant knows is the love of self, not agape. That makes him or her a sinner....
IF this isn't true and that infant dies before the age of accountability that child doesn't' need the righteousness of Christ. It can go to heaven on it's own steam. But that can never be.....Why? Because "there is none righteous, no, not even one."
 
Sep 16, 2014
1,278
23
0
It does not Matter what Ecumenical Councils say because they can be dead wrong and still insist they have the Truth.

Its what God says in His Scriptures that matters, not what Ecumenical Councils say!

Also it does not matter if babies can or cannot sin, because you are not a baby and God will judge you at the end of time.
 
Nov 23, 2013
13,684
1,212
113
IF this isn't true and that infant dies before the age of accountability that child doesn't' need the righteousness of Christ. It can go to heaven on it's own steam. But that can never be.....Why? Because "there is none righteous, no, not even one."
They're not guilty of commiting sin even though they comit sin because without the law sin is not imputed.
 

Cassian

Senior Member
Oct 12, 2013
1,960
7
0
All I can tell you is that an infant's developing mind and nature are in harmony with each other from conception. All that infant knows is the love of self, not agape. That makes him or her a sinner, but not a transgressor. Transgression requires volition.
Then you need to develop a new theory that shows Christ was not exactly like us in every way. Then you need to develop a theory that will make it possible to save our nature vs his own nature.
Good luck with that. There have been many already and they all ended up false. I don't see yours to be any different.