The Immaculate Conception Error
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He wasn't like us in that we are sinners.....
So, let's look at the verses you alluded to:
[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Therefore, [/FONT]He had to be made like His brethren in all things[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif], so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people".[/FONT]
Christ, as God, took upon His Deity our fallen humanity indwelt with the love of self (iniquity). But, unlike us, He never sinned not even from birth. How? Because He was born spiritually alive, yet He still had to contend with temptation.
[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If Christ were born spiritually dead, His mind and the nature He assumed would have been in harmony and Christ too would have been a sinner needing a Savior.[/FONT]
So, let's look at the verses you alluded to:
[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Therefore, [/FONT]He had to be made like His brethren in all things[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif], so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people".[/FONT]
Christ, as God, took upon His Deity our fallen humanity indwelt with the love of self (iniquity). But, unlike us, He never sinned not even from birth. How? Because He was born spiritually alive, yet He still had to contend with temptation.
[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]If Christ were born spiritually dead, His mind and the nature He assumed would have been in harmony and Christ too would have been a sinner needing a Savior.[/FONT]
I see we have a self appointed, infallible interpreter of scripture. One that denies what scripture actually states regarding Christ's Body and the Truth that was given and preserved within that Body. Where does it say that individual man has the authority over the Revelation that was given once to the Apostles to impart to the early Church, the Body of Christ?
You are correct that there have been some Councils that have been wrong. However, the Councils are not the final arbiter of Truth. It is the Body that supersedes any Council. However when the Body approves of the Council it becomes valid and Truth. That is how the Holy Spirit has always functioned within the Body of Christ.
You are correct that there have been some Councils that have been wrong. However, the Councils are not the final arbiter of Truth. It is the Body that supersedes any Council. However when the Body approves of the Council it becomes valid and Truth. That is how the Holy Spirit has always functioned within the Body of Christ.
all this and presumably much more still to come all because man/men want to prove that they know more and better than God and then to add insult to injury claim inspiration by the HS - Jesus said simply simply believe like little children but really knowing flawed human nature for what it is quickly added that it is simply very difficult if not simply impossible for adults to simply simply believe like little children or like Mary did when she said how can this be but be it done according to thy word - all this was not planned at a given or appropriate moment in time but in the beginning - those who knock Mary knock Jesus for their bible quotes against her sinless nature apply equally to Him for "all" have sinned and there is "none" righteous save one or two maybe - wincam
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lol I am not RCC nor Protestant. The bible does not teach Jesus had a fallen nature it teach that he came in the likeness of sinful YET without sin. it seems that human reason has tried to replace what the Word of God teaches clearly about The Lord Jesus christ. As far as theories , they are just that. Mary did not pass on the sinful nature to Jesus, to have that his father would have had to have that period. God does not have sin.
I am not telling anything. The bible is very clear that Jesus had a Devine nature. You can not have a nature of sin and one without sin they are contrary to the other. And If you believe Jesus is God and God is holy = set apart and without sin. It is clear that Jesus too like HIS Father is without sin. The context of fallen man is that he came in the Flesh IN the likeness of. YET without sin.
what does the bible say about Jesus and sin?:
First The doctrine of the " Virgin Birth" is vitally important to the whole structure of fundamental theology. IF JESUS HAD BEEN BORN OF A NATURAL FATHER:
(1) He would have inherited the Adamic nature of the human race, and HIS Death would not have been vicarious nor substitutionary.
Jesus had a Divine Nature and human nature, yet HE was one person not two. Son of God and the Son of man 1tim 2:5 He is our mediator.
phil 2: 6-8 says: Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in The LIKENESS on men.
The Greek Homoioma means " real likeness", but HIS LIKENESS WAS not merely human . Jesus was real man, but not merely man.
John the Apostle warned against a heresy that denied the humanity of Jesus he stated:
many false prophets are gone into the world .Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confessesth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist( 1john 4:1-3). KJV
Some devout and well meaning believers, have been so absorbed in maintaining The Deity of Christ Christ that they have minimized the humanity of Jesus. But he took on all as man but not the sinful nature.
Now back to the point: "Are you telling me that if Jesus as the son of man assumed our sinful nature that would make Him a sinner? If so, prove it!".
1. Jesus never sinned 1cor 5:21
2. Jesus was tempted and did not sin Matt. chapter 4 Luke chapter 4
The bible tells us Jesus was tempted in all point as man yes without sin.
It is clear that Jesus did not assume our sinful nature other than that of flesh He had a Devine Nature that the flesh was in complete Obedience to. And your question would it make Him (Jesus) a sinner because He assumed our sinful nature? is not possible because Jesus did not take unto HIMself the Sinful nature as the bible teaches. say it anyway you want Jesus did not have a sinful nature, not because I say it ... the bible does.
what does the bible say about Jesus and sin?:
First The doctrine of the " Virgin Birth" is vitally important to the whole structure of fundamental theology. IF JESUS HAD BEEN BORN OF A NATURAL FATHER:
(1) He would have inherited the Adamic nature of the human race, and HIS Death would not have been vicarious nor substitutionary.
Jesus had a Divine Nature and human nature, yet HE was one person not two. Son of God and the Son of man 1tim 2:5 He is our mediator.
phil 2: 6-8 says: Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in The LIKENESS on men.
The Greek Homoioma means " real likeness", but HIS LIKENESS WAS not merely human . Jesus was real man, but not merely man.
John the Apostle warned against a heresy that denied the humanity of Jesus he stated:
many false prophets are gone into the world .Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confessesth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist( 1john 4:1-3). KJV
Some devout and well meaning believers, have been so absorbed in maintaining The Deity of Christ Christ that they have minimized the humanity of Jesus. But he took on all as man but not the sinful nature.
Now back to the point: "Are you telling me that if Jesus as the son of man assumed our sinful nature that would make Him a sinner? If so, prove it!".
1. Jesus never sinned 1cor 5:21
2. Jesus was tempted and did not sin Matt. chapter 4 Luke chapter 4
The bible tells us Jesus was tempted in all point as man yes without sin.
It is clear that Jesus did not assume our sinful nature other than that of flesh He had a Devine Nature that the flesh was in complete Obedience to. And your question would it make Him (Jesus) a sinner because He assumed our sinful nature? is not possible because Jesus did not take unto HIMself the Sinful nature as the bible teaches. say it anyway you want Jesus did not have a sinful nature, not because I say it ... the bible does.
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Jesus is who? God! He is Divine. But for about 34 years Christ as God assumed our fallen life (see 2 Cor 5:16) and thus also became "the son of man."
So you are right, Jesus as God didn't have a fallen nature, but as "the son of man" He assumed our liability. Who are you kidding?
If He didn't assume our fallen nature then how was He tempted?
So you are right, Jesus as God didn't have a fallen nature, but as "the son of man" He assumed our liability. Who are you kidding?
If He didn't assume our fallen nature then how was He tempted?
And you are doing the very same thing. He took on our fallen mortal nature, exactly as we are, but knew no sin. Since Christ took on our human nature he took on a nature that can sin, thus sinful. Jesus had the capacity to sin, but did NOT sin. Therein lies the difference between our humanity and Christ's. If Christ did not have the capacity to sin, He could not be tempted. He could not have kept the law perfectly.
The whole issue comes down to the acceptance of a false theory, that of Original Sin first promulgated by Augustine. The RCC adopted it as did all the Protestant reformers. It has led to countless additional errors which includes IC the topic of this thread.
The whole issue comes down to the acceptance of a false theory, that of Original Sin first promulgated by Augustine. The RCC adopted it as did all the Protestant reformers. It has led to countless additional errors which includes IC the topic of this thread.
you are providing human reason you say "if Christ did not have the capacity to sin, He could not be tempted". you have not provided any biblical ref to your opinion yet you say "The whole issue comes down to the acceptance of a false theory". The bible is clear you do not have to agree with me But again the bible is very clear Jesus did not have a sinful nature( the ability to sin) that is error in thinking and in biblical understanding.
Tempted and testing can be used in the English lannguage to mean the same thing. Context is very important.
Jesus is the Son of man which speak to His humanity fully God and fully man. Jesus did not have lust which all men are tempted by or drawn away with thier OWN Lust. Jesus had not lust, so the context of Jesus being tempted in all POINTS AS MAN YET without SIN..... Clearly speaks to the truth of Jesus NOT having sinned or the ability to sin during the temptation UN like man. Why? how can that be? if HE has the Sinful nature of falling man? HE doesn't. AS the Word of God says.
Jesus is the Son of man which speak to His humanity fully God and fully man. Jesus did not have lust which all men are tempted by or drawn away with thier OWN Lust. Jesus had not lust, so the context of Jesus being tempted in all POINTS AS MAN YET without SIN..... Clearly speaks to the truth of Jesus NOT having sinned or the ability to sin during the temptation UN like man. Why? how can that be? if HE has the Sinful nature of falling man? HE doesn't. AS the Word of God says.
Read your own quote, CS1. Jesus was tempted by the same nature we all share. He was "made of the seed of David according to the flesh." What part of that can't you comprehend?
What you are doing is trying to separate from Christ the humanity that He came to legally redeem (see Gal 4:4). That puts you in the anti-Christ category.
"For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and an anti-christ." (2 John 1:7)
If you reject that Christ, as the son of man (the last Adam), came in the flesh (Greek : Sarx - fallen human nature) then "our old life" from Adam didn't die "in Christ" (see Rom 6:6/7:4) and the law still demands the death of the sinner.
That type of teaching is "anti-christ" and since you are teaching it, it places you in cahoots with Roman and the immaculate conception.
The problem? You are preaching "another gospel" and hence you are still under law. Good luck in the judgement, Mr. legalist!
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Then Christ's humanity is worthless to us. If he does no have precisely our nature He could not heal that nature by His resurrection. Whatever nature He had was not like ours. We can be tempted and so was He. He kept the law perfectly which is why He can command us to be perfect as well. He is our example and model.
He raised our mortal nature to life, to immortality which would be impossible unless He had our exact, precise, same human nature.
You have created a Christ that cannot heal us because you are trying to protect Him from a false theory.
He raised our mortal nature to life, to immortality which would be impossible unless He had our exact, precise, same human nature.
You have created a Christ that cannot heal us because you are trying to protect Him from a false theory.
The whole idea is based on a fallacy, there is no original sin passed on...
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Please read verse 20 carefully. The idea that Mary was born without sin is correct, but so was every other human being. WE are not guilty for someone else's actions, we are guilty for our own.
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Please read verse 20 carefully. The idea that Mary was born without sin is correct, but so was every other human being. WE are not guilty for someone else's actions, we are guilty for our own.
You weren't born guilty of transgression until you repeat those sins. However, you do stand condemned because you share in Adam's fallen life, indwelt with our bent-to-self. That's the clear teaching of Romans chapter 5.
Because we all share in Adam's fallen nature we immediate sin. Remember, sin is not just an outward action, but a thought...a selfish thought.
Because we all share in Adam's fallen nature we immediate sin. Remember, sin is not just an outward action, but a thought...a selfish thought.
Cassian, the only thing that makes Jesus different from us is he was not born with a fallen nature and he did not sin. He was brought into the world through the Holy Spirit causing Mary to conceive Him and not through sinful man. Jesus got tired, he sweated when he worked as a carpenter until 30, he went to a lonely place to re-energize after being around people, etc. Jesus is both fully man and fully God. Your idea of who he is is not biblical and is not supported by the Bible. Read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and for the amount of time you read it throw your presuppositions out the window. We have lovingly throughout this thread pointed out that you are wrong, using the Bible to support our arguments. You have used the Bible incorrectly and have put human reasoning into who Jesus is. Please stop it and ask God to reveal this important truth to you. Jesus can relate to us because he was tempted but did not have a sinful nature and did not sin, we can relate to him as mentioned in Hebrews. When Jesus was tempted he used Scripture against Satan, so when we are tempted we can use that ammunition against the adversary. Jesus was tempted by hunger but he did not give into Satan's bait. Just because Jesus was not born with a sinful nature and could not sin, does not mean he could not be tempted and it also does not mean that we cannot relate to him. When Jesus came to Earth he did not come as a superhuman but as a human. God bless. 
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The idea of immaculate conception is not based on a falacy. Original sin was passed on that is shown in the Bible. There are verses that says for the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. You are taking Ezekiel 18:4 out of context and you are talking Ezekiel 18:20 out of context. If there is no original sin, then why did Jesus come to Earth? If there is no original sin, why did he die on the cross? Another thing in one of the accounts of the Christmas story in the gospels it says that Jesus came to save from our sins. How can you save people from sins, if they do not have original sin. That is ridiculous. Mary was not born without sin, that would violate what happened when Adam and Eve sinned against God by violated the only commandment they had eat from the other trees but not the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I was not born without sin, explain why there is such a thing as murder, rape, incest, lust, premarital sex, etc. All these sins rebel against God. If we were not born in sin, then we would not be able to murder, rape, commit incest, lust, do premarital sex, covet, etc as human beings. The Bible speaks against you and you are wrong. Why in the Old Testament were people commanded to sacrifice an animal on the altar to God for their sins every day until the New Covenant began, as mentioned in Hebrews? Read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and stop taking verses out of context when that only causes confusion. There is no fallacy. When it talking about the iniquity, they are talking about sin in general and not original sin. Read the whole chapter. Sin in general we are all accountable for it, in fact we are going to have give an account to God and since we have Jesus we will pass with flying colors because we have accepted his sacrifice on the cross for our sins and God has imputed his righteousness to us. God bless.
