the rapture

[popeye]

Hi Popeye,
In 1830 margaret mcdonald had a dream and thought it was demonic. darby and all, took this to mean money in their pockets and came up with the rapture doctrine. Satans last attempt to steal souls from God is this rapture theory.

everyone thinks satan comes back killing and destroying in a frenzy, but that is not the truth! he comes in peacefully, pretending to be Jesus and tricks many of Gods children into thinking Jesus has returned.
satan comes at the 6th trump Jesus comes at the 7th trump.

When Jesus does come back, He is sickened to find so many of his people worshipping satan.
These deceived Christians are the ones taken 1st, These are the deceived Christians that are calling for the rocks to fall on them because they are so sickened that they were fooled into beleiving in satans rapture theory.

sad. so so sad. People sitting in the front row of chruch every week dedicating themselves to God. Good people loving people, only to follow satan at the last deception. Crying for the rocks to fall on them they are so ashamed.

read this again for yourselves in the bible and see if you don't see who is saying these things about the rocks falling on their heads.

allan

Margaret was postrib. She believed that the church must go through the GT for cleansing.

I check out everything.

You do not do your homework.

Satans last attempt to steal souls from God is this rapture theory.

So,since she was postrib,satan has deceived you,huh?


Hugs,kisses,cyber hi fives........................since i am such a great man of God.

 

[popeye]

I don't pay a lot of attention to what other men write since so many are wrong and are merely regurgitating crap others before them wrote such as those who repeat the lies of Darby. My views are deduced from the Bible, just as yours are deduced. The question then becomes, whose deduction is better?

Paul does not locate 1 Thes 4:13-17 in relation to the Tribulation. In fact, he doesn't even mention the Tribulation in that passage. You all locate 1 Thes 4 before the Tribulation because you wrongly consider the Tribulation as the Wrath of God when you have no passage that tells you the Tribulation = the Wrath of God. Then because you make that mistake you deduce that the Rapture must take place before the Wrath of God and you also deduce that the Wrath of God is world-wide affecting the whole planet thus we can't be on the planet Earth. Every bit of your views are contrived and deduced from false assumptions.

First let's define the Rapture as Paul describes it in 1 Thes 4. There is a resurrection. There is the return of God the Father, (not Christ) and God is bringing dead believers (those who sleep in Jesus). This is what the passage literally says yet all of you replace Jesus for God.

even so God will bring...

We know the souls of the dead are returning to enter their resurrected bodies. We have multiple passages that locate the resurrection after the Tribulation. We have no passage that locates any resurrection before the Trib. Those are the facts.

Dan 12:1-3 locates the resurrection AFTER the Tribulation.

And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This time of Trouble IS the Great Tribulation. The nation mentioned is Israel. This connects perfectly to Mat 24:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. [SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

In Mat 24 as in Dan 12 we clearly see that it is the Nation of Israel that is involved in the Great Tribulation. Jeremiah 30 calls the Tribulation the time of "Jacob's Trouble." Thus the Tribulation is mostly regional but of course spills out all over the world. You guys read all the imagery of Revelation and literalize it into mountains being thrown into the sea, grass and trees being burned up all over the place, sea turning to blood, fire breathing men, beast crawling up from the ground, etc. etc.

Revelation does not provide anything new. It merely further tells us of events already foretold but does so in more detail.

Back to your question. Peter tells us the old earth and heaven dissolve. John teaches that a new heaven comes down and that this happens after the 1,000 year reign. John also tells us this:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison [SUP]8 [/SUP]and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. [SUP]9 [/SUP]They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

It appears God is still in heaven when He does the above, right? When does God leave heaven and come to earth?

If all Saints are already resurrected in spiritual bodies, would they be threatened by the above surrounding of the Beloved City? These saints could not be killed again or harmed in any way. Therefore, they must be mortal. After this we are told of the Great White Throne of Judgment. The 1,000 years are over, right? Are there any living mortals at this point?

We are told in 2 Peter 3 and in Rev 21 that the old heaven and earth will pass away.

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away.

Before it passes away would it not be necessary to translate any mortal still left alive?

Does the phrase, "Alive and Remain" sound familiar? What are they remaining from? A pre-trib period where nothing bad has happened yet?

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Paul does not locate 1 Thes 4:13-17 in relation to the Tribulation. In fact, he doesn't even mention the Tribulation in that passage. You all locate 1 Thes 4 before the Tribulation because you wrongly consider the Tribulation as the Wrath of God when you have no passage that tells you the Tribulation = the Wrath of God. Then because you make that mistake you deduce that the Rapture must take place before the Wrath of God and you also deduce that the Wrath of God is world-wide affecting the whole planet thus we can't be on the planet Earth. Every bit of your views are contrived and deduced from false assumptions.

I don't need a wrath/trib delineation.

The entire 7 years is the GT.
It is called that for the simple reason heaven calls it that when the GM are shown to Paul. And that is early on in the GT.
Not only that it is basically called that in mat 24.
But yes,the last half is intensified. If anyone wants to call it that it is their business.I stay away from splitting those hairs.

But it appears you know of no ministry with your same doctrine.

 

[ATH1]

Margaret was postrib. She believed that the church must go through the GT for cleansing.

I check out everything.

You do not do your homework.


So,since she was postrib,satan has deceived you,huh?


Hugs,kisses,cyber hi fives........................since i am such a great man of God.

post trib?????????????? in 1830????????? This young girl had no idea of a rapture theory, she was mental. you have no idea of what you are talking about.
darby and his moneyd hungry cronies dremt up this balony after mcdonald talked about her dream.
She had no idea of what the dream meant. she only knew it was demonic, and said it was demonic herself.

 

[crossnote]

post trib?????????????? in 1830????????? This young girl had no idea of a rapture theory, she was mental. you have no idea of what you are talking about.
darby and his moneyd hungry cronies dremt up this balony after mcdonald talked about her dream.
She had no idea of what the dream meant. she only knew it was demonic, and said it was demonic herself.

Check your facts. What the girl espoused was closer to the post trib position. All these lies about Darby are just desperate attempts to explain away a biblical scenario that has much merit for it.
I find the ones who oppose dispensationalism seldom do it without outrage outbursts of emotion.

 

[Babylonisfalling]

Does anyone here think that those Christians who disagree with you on the rapture are going through hell over it?

Do you believe Christians are not saved based on where they stand on the rapture?

Or that a saved Christian who does not happen to believe in the rapture will still be taken in the rapture?

 

[popeye]

That's just it. I don't "find a rapture" at the 2nd coming,you guys do. (That is why you call yourselves postrib).




You literally grabbed that from the sky. There is no such thing.
If you think there is,show me from scripture.



Where do you get this posture to watch and wait for the devil?
Who got you to believe that nonsense?
Fire them and get some real teachers.

Kisses and hugs......there ....I am a real man of God.

Check your facts. What the girl espoused was closer to the post trib position. All these lies about Darby are just desperate attempts to explain away a biblical scenario that has much merit for it.
I find the ones who oppose dispensationalism seldom do it without outrage outbursts of emotion.

post trib?????????????? in 1830????????? This young girl had no idea of a rapture theory, she was mental. you have no idea of what you are talking about.
darby and his moneyd hungry cronies dremt up this balony after mcdonald talked about her dream.
She had no idea of what the dream meant. she only knew it was demonic, and said it was demonic herself.

It is on the web
That silly mess used to "work" for you guys.

One day I actually read it.
She was postrib.
We do your homework. You guys paint yourself into a million corners.

Kinda fun watching ya'll do that.

Even funnier watching ya'll own what you accuse Margaret of.

 

[popeye]

Does anyone here think that those Christians who disagree with you on the rapture are going through hell over it?

Do you believe Christians are not saved based on where they stand on the rapture?

Or that a saved Christian who does not happen to believe in the rapture will still be taken in the rapture?

Missing the Rapture is not a salvation issue per se.

Those foolish virgin believers (mat 25) get left behind and martyred early on in the GT.

All W/O THE MARK die according to the word.

 

[popeye]

Post 566 was to ath1.

The other quotes got in there by mistake.

I did something on my phone that caused that

 

[ATH1]

It is on the web
That silly mess used to "work" for you guys.

One day I actually read it.
She was postrib.
We do your homework. You guys paint yourself into a million corners.

Kinda fun watching ya'll do that.

Even funnier watching ya'll own what you accuse Margaret of.

Do you not know that "Margaret" said that the dream or vision she had was evil. She did not like it. She knew it was bad, She knew the dream came from satan and not God. but money and notoriety pushed darby and others to run with it.

All through the bible, God is preparing us for the end times, to put on the armor of God, and you believe that just as the battle is about to begin bewteen good and evil, that God takes out the good?????
I'm glad your not an officer in my command at the end times.
All the prophets wanted to be able to be here in the end times. Why would they have wanted to be here in the end times if they were going to be taken out?????????

Its like you rapture people have tunnel vision and do not utilize the rest of the bible to make an opinion.

Let me ask you Is it ok to eat pork today? Did God say it is ok to eat pork today. Is the food laws still pertain to a Christian today?

If you dare to say yes it is ok to eat pork today, I will prove to you and everybody how wrong you are.

allan

 

[popeye]

Do you not know that "Margaret" said that the dream or vision she had was evil. She did not like it. She knew it was bad, She knew the dream came from satan and not God. but money and notoriety pushed darby and others to run with it.

I read the dream/vision,whatever,and her "interpretation" years ago. presented to the postribs in a debate,and they sure were quiet. REAL QUITE.

That is on the web,or it was.

Where is your link?

Paul ate meat sacrificed to idols and showed others how to do it.

Figure that one out.

 

[popeye]

Do you not know that "Margaret" said that the dream or vision she had was evil. She did not like it. She knew it was bad, She knew the dream came from satan and not God. but money and notoriety pushed darby and others to run with it.

All through the bible, God is preparing us for the end times, to put on the armor of God, and you believe that just as the battle is about to begin bewteen good and evil, that God takes out the good?????
I'm glad your not an officer in my command at the end times.
All the prophets wanted to be able to be here in the end times. Why would they have wanted to be here in the end times if they were going to be taken out?????????

Its like you rapture people have tunnel vision and do not utilize the rest of the bible to make an opinion.

Let me ask you Is it ok to eat pork today? Did God say it is ok to eat pork today. Is the food laws still pertain to a Christian today?

If you dare to say yes it is ok to eat pork today, I will prove to you and everybody how wrong you are.

allan

From her dream;

"........I saw the people of God in an awfully dangerous situation, surrounded by nets and entanglements, about to be tried, and many about to be deceived and fall. Now will THE WICKED be revealed, with all power and signs and lying wonders, so that if it were possible the very elect will be deceived. - This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus; but Oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will be shaken to the very centre. The enemy will try to shake in every thing we have believed - But the trial of real faith will be found to honour and praise and glory. Nothing but what is of God will stand. The stony-ground hearers will be made manifest - the love of many will wax cold I frequently said that night, and often since, now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this earth. and nothing but the living Christ in us can detect this awful attempt of the enemy to deceive ......."
Margaret Macdonald's Original Pretribulation Vision

Your doctrine must have originated from her. ...SHE WAS POSTRIB.

So,we can now conclude (using your ruler) that postribbers all got their doctrine from ole Margaret.

OMG,TOO FUNNY.

 

[popeye]

Ok,Margaret no longer works.

Lets move on to the next postrib fable.

I have some no brainer scriptures ready for most anything out of their workbook.

Like ducks in a barrel. LOL

 

[ATH1]

Ok,Margaret no longer works.

Lets move on to the next postrib fable.

I have some no brainer scriptures ready for most anything out of their workbook.

Like ducks in a barrel. LOL

should be more careful what you read and believe in popeye. Next thing we know you will find the bible written by satan and you will think its a revised bible.

 

[ATH1]

If you read a little bit more than one sentence, you will find the Jesus said ..do not be a hypocrite! if you are in company and they eat unclean meat eat some with them, you might get sick, but don't embarass them or yourself. It is a reasonable thing to do. it does not make it a new law. Again I say popeye, don't be a one sentence preacher and proclaimer. read several sentences before and after to get the real meaning.

Do you not know that "Margaret" said that the dream or vision she had was evil. She did not like it. She knew it was bad, She knew the dream came from satan and not God. but money and notoriety pushed darby and others to run with it.

I read the dream/vision,whatever,and her "interpretation" years ago. presented to the postribs in a debate,and they sure were quiet. REAL QUITE.

That is on the web,or it was.

Where is your link?

Paul ate meat sacrificed to idols and showed others how to do it.

Figure that one out.

 

[popeye]

If you read a little bit more than one sentence, you will find the Jesus said ..do not be a hypocrite! if you are in company and they eat unclean meat eat some with them, you might get sick, but don't embarass them or yourself. It is a reasonable thing to do. it does not make it a new law. Again I say popeye, don't be a one sentence preacher and proclaimer. read several sentences before and after to get the real meaning.

Ok

Good advice

Thanks

 

[popeye]

If you read a little bit more than one sentence, you will find the Jesus said ..do not be a hypocrite! if you are in company and they eat unclean meat eat some with them, you might get sick, but don't embarass them or yourself. It is a reasonable thing to do. it does not make it a new law. Again I say popeye, don't be a one sentence preacher and proclaimer. read several sentences before and after to get the real meaning.

Ok

Good advice

Thanks

 

[popeye]

should be more careful what you read and believe in popeye. Next thing we know you will find the bible written by satan and you will think its a revised bible.

I use green's Greek interlinear.

I own 3 of them.

Satan has zero to do with my bibles.

But anytime you want to step up to serious systematic theology you will need a Greek bible.

(textus receptus or received text)

Not being mean,but there is higher ground than where you have parked.

 

[PlainWord]

I don't need a wrath/trib delineation.

The entire 7 years is the GT.
It is called that for the simple reason heaven calls it that when the GM are shown to Paul. And that is early on in the GT.
Not only that it is basically called that in mat 24.
But yes,the last half is intensified. If anyone wants to call it that it is their business.I stay away from splitting those hairs.

But it appears you know of no ministry with your same doctrine.

You do not have a 7 year Tribulation period clearly taught. You are relying on the assumption that Daniel's 70th week is the Great Tribulation. However, the passage is unclear about this.

The Great Tribulation clearly begins when the Abomination of Desolation is seen (Mat 24:21). The location is clearly in the vicinity of Judea as confirmed by Mat 24:16 and Dan 12:1-3 yet you want to make the GT world-wide.

As for how long the GT lasts, Rev 13 tells us the BEAST from the SEA (Northern Islamic Force) leader (Mouth) continues for 42 months. At some point (maybe immediately) after the 42 months the Beast of the Earth (AKA Man of Sin, AKA A/C) will appear and direct the Muslim world to worship the Beast of the Sea. During this period, millions of Muslims will be killed and during this period the Beast from the Sea will enter Israel and attack her.

You insist that all Seals, Trumpets and Bowls are part of the GT. No passage teaches this and the events which happen could not take place in such a short time.

I don't have a problem with no major ministry sharing my views if indeed that is the case. Plenty of people do not see the Rapture taking place before the GT.

 

[PlainWord]

Popeye,

If I am correct about the identity of the Beast of the Sea being ISIS and correct that Mystery Babylon is Islam, we should expect to see the Man of Sin appear in about 2 years. If I am correct, the GT as you think of it, has already started. But since the GT starts with the appearance of the A of D it really won't start for another 2 years. In either event, you would be wrong about your pre-trib Rapture position.

 

[DP]

Margaret Macdonald's original letter:

[This is Margaret Macdonald's handwritten account of her 1830 Pre-Trib revelation, as included in Robert Norton's Memoirs of James & George Macdonald of Port-Glasgow (1840), pp. 171-176. The italicized portions represent her account as it appears in shorter form in Norton's The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets; In the Catholic Apostolic Church (1861), pp 15-18.]


"It was first the awful state of the land that was pressed upon me.(1) I saw the blindness and infatuation of the people to be very great. I felt the cry of Liberty just to be the hiss of the serpent, to drown them in perdition. It was just `no God.' I repeated the words, Now there is distress of nations, with perplexity, the seas and the waves roaring, men's hearts failing them for fear - now look out for the sign of the Son of man. Here I was made to stop and cry out, 0 it is not known what the sign of the Son of man is; the people of God think they are waiting, but they know not what it is. I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man. even Jesus; but that all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father's glory. I saw the error to be, that men think that it will be something seen by the natural eye; but 'tis spiritual discernment that is needed, the eye of God in his people. Many passages were revealed, in a light in which I had not before seen them. I repeated, `Now is the kingdom of Heaven like unto ten virgins, who went forth to meet the Bridegroom, five wise and five foolish; they that were foolish took their lamps, but took no oil with them; but they that were wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.' 'But be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is; and be not drunk with wine wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit.' This was the oil the wise virgins took in their vessels - this is the light to be kept burning - the light of God - that we may discern that which cometh not with observation to the natural eye. Only those who have the light of God within them will see the sign of his appearance. No need to follow them who say, see here, or see there, for his day shall be as the lightning to those in whom the living Christ is. 'Tis Christ in us that will lift us up - he is the light - 'tis only those that are alive in him that will be caught up to meet him in the air. I saw that we must be in the Spirit, that we might see spiritual things. John was in the Spirit, when he saw a throne set in Heaven. - But I saw that the glory of the ministration of the Spirit had not been known. I repeated frequently, but the spiritual temple must and shall be reared, and the fullness of Christ be poured into his body, and then shall we be caught up to meet him. Oh none will be counted worthy of this calling but his body, which is the church, and which must be a candlestick all of gold. I often said, Oh the glorious inbreaking of God which is now about to burst on this earth; Oh the glorious temple which is now about to be reared, the bride adorned for her husband; and Oh what a holy, holy bride she must be, to be prepared for such a glorious bridegroom. I said, Now shall the people of God have to do with realities - now shall the glorious mystery of God in our nature be known - now shall it be known what it is for man to be glorified. I felt that the revelation of Jesus Christ had yet to be opened up - it is not knowledge about God that it contains, but it is an entering into God - I saw that there was a glorious breaking in of God to be. I feIt as Elijah surrounded with chariots of fire. I saw as it were, the spiritual temple reared, and the Head Stone brought forth with shoutings of grace, grace, unto it. It was a glorious light above the brightness of the sun, that shone round about me. I felt that those who were filled with the spirit could see spiritual things, and feel walking in the midst of them, while those who had not the Spirit could see nothing - so that two shall be in one bed, the one taken and the other left, because the one has the light of God within while the other cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven. I saw the people of God in an awfully dangerous situation, surrounded by nets and entanglements, about to be tried, and many about to be deceived and fall. Now will THE WICKED be revealed, with all power and signs and lying wonders, so that if it were possible the very elect will be deceived. - This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus; but Oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will be shaken to the very centre. The enemy will try to shake in every thing we have believed - But the trial of real faith will be found to honour and praise and glory. Nothing but what is of God will stand. The stony-ground hearers will be made manifest - the love of many will wax cold I frequently said that night, and often since, now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this earth. and nothing but the living Christ in us can detect this awful attempt of the enemy to deceive - or it is with all deceivableness of unrighteousness he will work - he will have a counterpart for every part of God's truth and an imitation for every work of the Spirit. The Spirit must and will be poured out on the church, that she may be purified and filled with God - and just in proportion as the Spirit of God works, so will he when our Lord anoints men with power, so will he. This is particularly the nature of the trial, through which those are to pass who will be counted worthy to stand before the Son of man. There will be outward trial too, but `tis principally temptation. It is brought on by the outpouring of the Spirit, and will just increase in proportion as the Spirit is poured out. The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept. I frequently said, Oh be filled with the Spirit - have the light of God in you, that you may detect Satan - be full of eyes within - be clay in the hands of the potter - submit to be filled, filled with God This will build the temple. It is not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit saith the Lord. This will fit us to enter into the marriage supper of the lamb. I saw It to be the will of God that all should be filled. But what hindered the real life of God from being received by his people, was their turning from Jesus. who is the way to the Father. They were not entering in by the door. For he is faithful who hath said, by me if any man enter in he shall find pasture. They were passing the cross, through which every drop of the Spirit of God flows to us. All power that comes not through the blood of Christ is not of God. When I say, they are looking from the cross, I feel that there is much in it - they turn from the blood of the Lamb, by which we overcome, and in which our robes are washed and made white. There are low views of God's holiness, and ceasing to condemn sin in the flesh, and a looking from him who humbled himself, and made himself of no reputation. Oh! it is needed, much needed at present, a leading back to the cross, I saw that night, and often since, that there will be an outpouring of the Spirit on the body, such as has not been, a baptism of fire, that all the dross may be put away. Oh there must and will be such an indwelling of the living God as has not been -the servants of God sealed in their foreheads - great conformity to Jesus - his holy holy image seen in his people just the bride made comely, by his comeliness put upon her. This is what we are at present made to pray much for, that speedily we may all be made ready to meet our Lord in the air - and it will be. Jesus wants his bride. His desire is toward us. He that shall come, will come, and will not tarry. Amen and Amen. Even so come Lord Jesus."

from Margaret Macdonald's Original Pretribulation Vision


It's wasn't the pointing to a post-trib event she was speaking of that was the point, but the confluence of jumbled Scripture ideas she spoke which in the minds of those who interpreted her words turned it into a Pre-trib rapture idea.