Hyper grace

[PeterJens]

When people do not make clear their position, they actually do not have one.
After discussing with those who change their ideas to suit an argument, that is called deception and lying.

Let your "Yes" be yes and your "no" be no. Anything more is from the evil one.

Emotionally people get to a point which they cannot compromise. One young man wants to deny christ but he finds he cannot, so likes the prosperity gospel because it gives him wealth with religion. When you bring things into the light, it is clear what you stand for, and if this is not good, then ofcourse you would rather not.

I come to talk, discuss because I know that is how to grow and minister in the Lord. I know how hard this road can be because at times I give up to the absurdity of how I feel at the time. But the Lord has always led me on.

So I encourage you to explore and work through each of the points. Things may not be as you first thought, because that is how we develop and grow, it is an adventure.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

When people do not make clear their position, they actually do not have one.
After discussing with those who change their ideas to suit an argument, that is called deception and lying.

Let your "Yes" be yes and your "no" be no. Anything more is from the evil one.

Emotionally people get to a point which they cannot compromise. One young man wants to deny christ be he finds he cannot, so likes the prosperity gospel because it gives him wealth with religion. When you bring things into the light, it is clear what you stand for, and if this is not good, then ofcourse you would rather not.

I come to talk, discuss because I know that is how to grow and minister in the Lord. I know how hard this road can be because at times I give up to the absurdity of how I feel at the time. But the Lord has always led me on.

So I encourage you to explore and work through each of the points. Things may not be as you first thought, because that is how we develop and grow, it is an adventure.

which is why I have changed many of my believes I was taught as a child. I stopped listening to men tell me what I should believe and following them, and started questioning what they said, And found many things did not add up..

I still do not follow my leaders blindly, I question them, as they demand, and want held accountable,

 

[james57]

James, Paul THOUGHT IN HIS HUMAN SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS that he faultlessly obeyed the legalistic law as a Pharisee. He understands the hearts of those who are SELF RIGHTEOUS because HE was the KING OF SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS. lol... He knew better than anyone how self righteousness can blind someone to their need for Jesus and truth.

Paul found out that he was guilty of failing in ALL of the 10 commandments and then some as his heart was dark and full of sin. He had an outward righteousness that was painted white and looking good., but his inner self was full of death. But he didn't know that at the time. He walked in his self righteousness believing he kept alllll those commandments.

And don't say 'no one can' Millions of people have and died without Christ because they could not accept they were THAT bad. And millions more will also die without Christ unless they hear the Good News of the Gospel of grace and truth that Jesus brought.

Self righteousness and human pride are not easily killed. Especially for those very smart individuals who are self righteous to the point of not even believing there is a God. They have always managed on their own without God and accumulated world wide fame and applause from other people... But many of them commit suicide because in all their intellect.,, they needed more.

God put a hole in our hearts (sort of speak) for a need of Him., and many can run from it but are not all very happy humans., and satan also adds to the blindness by using human reason and unbelief and pride of life. They have no place to go... they won't accept there is a God yet they can't say they are happy content people and can't understand why they are not. So many kill themselves to end the emotional hurt. But they WON'T BELIEVE .

You couldn't hide, I couldn't hide., EG couldn't hide, Paul couldn't hide... but there are many who will and who have. We are not all the same people. Some will not believe.

Please answer my questions Lynn. If you are sure you are right and have this worked out, why wouldn't you?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Please answer my questions Lynn. If you are sure you are right and have this worked out, why wouldn't you?

she already has. Many times, Your just not listening to her.

How many times has she said over and over Paul as a pharisee would not struggle with those things..

 

[PeterJens]

Trying to be good

I have not ever tried to be good. I have spent my life being real and honest as best I can.

It sounds like people think being righteous is this ideal outside themselves, another individual which they can pretend to be but it is just not being honest. I suppose once I felt like this. Now I do not. I would say I do what my heart tells me to do, and my heart is full of the Lords love. Now is this because of self effort, or the Lords work?

As you walk with Jesus you change. As you forgive, as you confess sin, turn from evil and walk towards that which is right you become someone else. As a youngster I tried to imagine what it would be like to say sorry and not feel guilty, without actually doing it. It does not work surprisingly, but we seem to want to do this kind of thing all the time.

There was a time when I found it hard to empathise, or to see lostness. Some would say I am still in that place, but I now can tell the difference between excuses and real problems. All this bubble or desire to condemn those in legalism is because there is some deep rooted issues still in these peoples lives. It is like looking in the mirror and trying to solve someone elses problem when it is actually just your reflection. Legalists are fine until they sin. It is the sin that shows the failure and the cover up. The hyper grace are very keen to condemn the legalists, and talk constantly about their faults, rather than walking in grace themselves. What for me stands out biggest is over emphasis on single word interpretations from one or two verses, ignoring some obvious simple failures in their position.

Also to paint me as a legalist is a joke. I am the least rules bound person on the planet, and like inspiration and dedication to love above all else. But if you touch a nerve, out shoots the venom. So I do not believe what is being shared or the why, because it does not make sense. But that is all I can do. I will have to dig a bit deeper into this idea of no repentance from sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Trying to be good

I have not ever tried to be good. I have spent my life being real and honest as best I can.

So best you can Sounds like you have tried very hard.

 

[ladylynn]

Please answer my questions Lynn. If you are sure you are right and have this worked out, why wouldn't you?

Jame57, I did., what did I miss?? I answered and then some...and some more and then tons more., This is a blind spot for you I think. How about we just shelf it for the time being and bring it up at a later time?

 

[james57]

Oh I didn't know, sorry James57. Was so happy typing along and copying commentary and in being reminded of grace for me personally that I didn't notice you guys were not speaking. I'm very selfish at this moment.

I will answer the questions lynn

I had not known sin but by the law, for I had not known lust except the law had said:
Thou shalt not covet

So the frist question is. When exactly did the law come to Paul?

Well it cane to him when came of age to make a personal commitment to God. Lets pick an age. Thirteen, hows that

Now, through the law we become conscious of sin. Would Paul at Tha age have been an ardent Pharisee and refused to admit to himself he had impure thoughts? No, he wouldn't neither did I
So now Paul the young Pharisee knows he is a sinner.

Why do many become pharisees? Because they don't understand the true gospel, and become hard nosed to their imperfections, but they cannot truly hide from them in their heart.
Others go to the other extreme of course as you and I did.
Do now Paul the young Pharisee knows he is a sinner because he knows the law. He is in earnest to follow God( though with mistaken beliefs) so what does someone do who knows they cant measure up to the law but takes God seriously? A lot become phariseeical

So when the laws came to Paul it revealed the sin as it does for EVaERYONE

Now sin through the commandment aroused ALL manner of concupiscence in paul. Sin MAGNIFIED in Paul, it grew greater/ stronger. Did that happen to Paul the christian or Paul the Pharisee?
It could only have happened to Paul the Pharisee according to Paul's core gospel message
Sin slew Paul through breaking the law

Now how could sin slay Paul by him breaking a law he was not under unto righteousness? It cannot, that is impossible. So Paul is speaking of when he was a Pharisee in those verses.
However I know none ic you will ever accept it

 

[james57]

Jame57, I did., what did I miss?? I answered and then some...and some more and then tons more., This is a blind spot for you I think. How about we just shelf it for the time being and bring it up at a later time?

You wrote a lot Lynn and skirted round the questions, I have directly addressed them

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I will answer the questions lynn

I had not known sin but by the law, for I had not known lust except the law had said:
Thou shalt not covet

So the frist question is. When exactly did the law come to Paul?

Well it cane to him when came of age to make a personal commitment to God. Lets pick an age. Thirteen, hows that

Now, through the law we become conscious of sin. Would Paul at Tha age have been an ardent Pharisee and refused to admit to himself he had impure thoughts? No, he wouldn't neither did I
So now Paul the young Pharisee knows he is a sinner.

Why do many become pharisees? Because they don't understand the true gospel, and become hard nosed to their imperfections, but they cannot truly hide from them in their heart.
Others go to the other extreme of course as you and I did.
Do now Paul the young Pharisee knows he is a sinner because he knows the law. He is in earnest to follow God( though with mistaken beliefs) so what does someone do who knows they cant measure up to the law but takes God seriously? A lot become phariseeical

So when the laws came to Paul it revealed the sin as it does for EVaERYONE

Now sin through the commandment aroused ALL manner of concupiscence in paul. Sin MAGNIFIED in Paul, it grew greater/ stronger. Did that happen to Paul the christian or Paul the Pharisee?
It could only have happened to Paul the Pharisee according to Paul's core gospel message
Sin slew Paul through breaking the law

Now how could sin slay Paul by him breaking a law he was not under unto righteousness? It cannot, that is impossible. So Paul is speaking of when he was a Pharisee in those verses.
However I know none ic you will ever accept it

Paul had a different upbringing that you did, He was brought up in religion, and good doing. He had a religious interpretation of the law. like sadly, many people do today (a watered down version)

Paul never saw the law for what it was until he met Christ. If he saw it earlier, he never would have murdered so many people in the name of God, who followed Christ (including I may add, Christ himself which he probably had some hand in helping)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You wrote a lot Lynn and skirted round the questions, I have directly addressed them

and he wonders why I got so angry at him and acted the way I did, He ignores me because I confronted him, and now he is confronting someone and demanding.

This is wrong..

 

[james57]

My apologies for typo errors Lynn but am using a mobile

 

[james57]

PETER JENS

Surely you know Paul is speaking of his life as a Pharisee in rom 7:7-11.
If you do, I mean this sincerely, lets be friends.
I can send you a friend request and we can be amicable and I we don't agree on everything, no problem we can politely discuss it or not focus on it.
I am tired of people refusing to accept the obvious facts of scripture and being in denial of them. I know why they do it, but.....
I've gone off this hyper grace. If people refuse to accept the obvious truths their must be something badly wrong with their t thinking

Grace yes, not grace that states Paul lived the whole of his christian life as described I rom Ch 7.
That is preaching a very weak Gospel and denying the power of the cross to transform lives

 

[eternally-gratefull]

PETER JENS

Surely you know Paul is speaking of his life as a Pharisee in rom 7:7-11.
If you do, I mean this sincerely, lets be friends.
I can send you a friend request and we can be amicable and I we don't agree on everything, no problem we can politely discuss it or not focus on it.
I am tired of people refusing to accept the obvious facts of scripture and being in denial of them. I know why they do it, but wobt state that publically.
I've gone off this hyper grace. If people refuse to accept the obvious truths their must be something badly wrong with their t thinking

Grace yes, not grace that states Paul lived the whole of his christian life as described I rom Ch 7.
That is preaching a very weak Gospel and denying the power of the cross to transform lives

lol.. believe as I do or else.

Thats why you ignored me, You did not like getting called out on such things.

No one said paul lived his whole life in romans 7, We have only said he could never have lived his non christian life in romans 7. But you can not hear this, because you think your to focused on what you want to here, you canlt listen to anything else.

Your problem is you do not listen (like lynn has answered your questions many times, yet you can not hear her, so you keep demanding)

Again, this is just not right

 

[Grace777x70]

As I have said in the past...grace-believers can be guilty of being a "grace Pharisee"..in other words calling people individually a "legalist"...comparing themselves as if they are better then the others..this is not behavior from who we are in Christ.

There is a vast difference between describing the differences between being a self-performance legalistic mindset and grace-based believing mindset in the finished work of Christ. VS ...calling an individual themselves "legalistic".."Pharisee"..etc.

When people "project" onto themselves the differences that are shown between the 2 mindsets. That is when tempers and name calling come into play.

When "straw-men" are created it throws out the ability to have a meaningful discussion on anything. We are always trying to get the "straw-man" dealt with before we can deal with the real issue.

What can create these "straw-men" are when certain "words" are spoken that "trigger" our beliefs concerning that "word". The connotations from that "word" that come to us affect our ability to "hear" what is being said.


We have all had religious backgrounds in some form and we are taught things which we have come to believe are true but when we look at these beliefs in the light of what the scriptures actually say...not what we believe according to what we were taught...we need to be open to receive that truth.


We all believe in what the fruit of righteousness looks like. We all believe we need to repent of the way we think and believe in the gospel of the grace of Christ. We all believe that sinning is not appropriate for any Christian and grace teaches us how to live godly and uprightly in this present world.

 

[PeterJens]

So best you can Sounds like you have tried very hard.

Oh, hard as nails. I wonder why those who claim to walk in love refuse to empathise.
Walking in love is putting yourself in another persons shoes, bearing their troubles, sins, experience and then trying to show a way out.

What I am dealing with here is people wishing me into a box they have an answer to, or believe they do.
Love is so much bigger than this.

My view of a christian now is Jesus plants a seed of His word in our hearts, we feel its life but it does not echo in our hearts, it has a warmth, but we do not know where from. As we grow and let the word speak to us more of our hearts change and gets molded. There are struggles along the way where the old man fights to keep things but the new man takes over.

Only at the end can you see the new man and his victory. Now I hear words like your own strength or Gods strength but they do not echo with me. What I can say is through praise and the Spirit I see things in my life differently, my heart melts, I can go back renewed and refreshed.

Paul appears to be talking about this struggle with that which is from his experience and natural responses and that which is the Word at work within Him. It is clear we are called from eternity to eternity, predestined to walk in His love and grace, but actually day to day talking about it, people seem to miss the language or admit the humanity involved.

I know eternally-gratefull you think legalists are the cause of the demise of christian things rather than this is actually prophecy. We are just called to share Gods love and glory in walking with Him. What I am hearing is condemnation but not even about sin, just someone suspected of sin. Not a good idea and certainly not Gods ministry.

 

[Grace777x70]

Sin has been dealt with by our Lord Jesus Christ on the cross.

God is not like us evangelicals that are so sin-conscious. God is Christ-conscious.

Our old man was crucified with Christ. We are new creations and we need to live from that identity. Without understanding the new creation in Christ...we are left with self-effort..doing good deeds but still self-effort...we are left with the philosophy of the world..with the philosophy of our religious upbringing...with trying to sort everything out through psychology..

Colossians 2:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

Paul and Peter did not say..."and grow in the knowledge of sin and philosophy and focus on your old self"

"...and grow in the grace and knowledge of out Lord Jesus Christ."

This is what hyper-grace believers do..then the fruit of His life manifests in good deeds and love to others.




God deals with us about who our new identity is in Christ. Righteousness, holiness, redemption, wisdom. grace, love, kindness, goodness.

 

[PeterJens]

PETER JENS

Surely you know Paul is speaking of his life as a Pharisee in rom 7:7-11.
If you do, I mean this sincerely, lets be friends.
I can send you a friend request and we can be amicable and I we don't agree on everything, no problem we can politely discuss it or not focus on it.
I am tired of people refusing to accept the obvious facts of scripture and being in denial of them. I know why they do it, but.....
I've gone off this hyper grace. If people refuse to accept the obvious truths their must be something badly wrong with their t thinking

Grace yes, not grace that states Paul lived the whole of his christian life as described I rom Ch 7.
That is preaching a very weak Gospel and denying the power of the cross to transform lives

Thank you. I would be happy to be called a friend.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Oh, hard as nails. I wonder why those who claim to walk in love refuse to empathise.
Walking in love is putting yourself in another persons shoes, bearing their troubles, sins, experience and then trying to show a way out.

It is, but you have to experience love first before you can even have a grasp of what it means to walk in love, as scripture says, we love because he loved first A non believer can do a morally good deed. But it is not out of love thus it is not a righteous deed, there are non righteous, no not one,

So when someone says we must do good first, Then God will save us, well we have issues, how can one do good, if he has no capacity to love, all he can do is serve self. which is all the flesh is capable of doing. which is why the flesh must die. so the spirit can live.

What I am dealing with here is people wishing me into a box they have an answer to, or believe they do.
Love is so much bigger than this.

My view of a christian now is Jesus plants a seed of His word in our hearts, we feel its life but it does not echo in our hearts, it has a warmth, but we do not know where from. As we grow and let the word speak to us more of our hearts change and gets molded. There are struggles along the way where the old man fights to keep things but the new man takes over.

ok, I can agree with this. This happens with every believer. some more than others.

Only at the end can you see the new man and his victory. Now I hear words like your own strength or Gods strength but they do not echo with me. What I can say is through praise and the Spirit I see things in my life differently, my heart melts, I can go back renewed and refreshed.

thats all good. but is it real. or is it just religion. Thats one thing about religion and satans taxctics, he pulls on our emotional strings, why else do we have muslims committing suicide to kill the enemy so they can make it to heaven, it is all emotions. Emotions are not a good basis for ones faith

Paul appears to be talking about this struggle with that which is from his experience and natural responses and that which is the Word at work within Him. It is clear we are called from eternity to eternity, predestined to walk in His love and grace, but actually day to day talking about it, people seem to miss the language or admit the humanity involved.

Paul struggled bt he did not let this struggle get him down, thats the point of romans 7, Yes I struggle. But I will look to where the victory comes from, the ressurection of Christ, Grace, no more condemnation. etc etc (turning to chapter 8)

I know eternally-gratefull you think legalists are the cause of the demise of christian things rather than this is actually prophecy. We are just called to share Gods love and glory in walking with Him. What I am hearing is condemnation but not even about sin, just someone suspected of sin. Not a good idea and certainly not Gods ministry.

legalism

1. Keeps people from the gospel. it says salvation is not secure in Christ, it must be earned, or it will be lost.
2. Keeps a true christian in chains, bound by rules, and never able to grow. because they either think they are more righteous than they are, or see how futile their attempts are. and they either have to break free from legalism, or walk away from God altogether, Sadly, I have seen both.

If my salvation is not secure, If my salvation can be lost at any time, I have no hope. Romans 7 means nothing, I can'e believe that romans 7 is paul talking as a christian, it could not be so. and romans 8 has no value, only gives me a flase hope that i am ore righteous as I really am..

Ie... I do not sin, I make boo boos. I mess up from time to time..

I have said it many times, If we see ourselves from Gods eyes, we would see how truly sinful we really ARE (not were. are) and how so far outside Gods perfect standard we are, we would fall on our faces in fear (This happened to daniel and the apostle john)

I can never earn salvation, if I can never earn it (which most everyone will say) How could I ever lose it?

the fact is, I could not lose it, or else I had to lose it to begin with.

 

[james57]

As I have said in the past...grace-believers can be guilty of being a "grace Pharisee"..in other words calling people individually a "legalist"...comparing themselves as if they are better then the others..this is not behavior from who we are in Christ.

There is a vast difference between describing the differences between being a self-performance legalistic mindset and grace-based believing mindset in the finished work of Christ. VS ...calling an individual themselves "legalistic".."Pharisee"..etc.

When people "project" onto themselves the differences that are shown between the 2 mindsets. That is when tempers and name calling come into play.

When "straw-men" are created it throws out the ability to have a meaningful discussion on anything. We are always trying to get the "straw-man" dealt with before we can deal with the real issue.

What can create these "straw-men" are when certain "words" are spoken that "trigger" our beliefs concerning that "word". The connotations from that "word" that come to us affect our ability to "hear" what is being said.


We have all had religious backgrounds in some form and we are taught things which we have come to believe are true but when we look at these beliefs in the light of what the scriptures actually say...not what we believe according to what we were taught...we need to be open to receive that truth.


We all believe in what the fruit of righteousness looks like. We all believe we need to repent of the way we think and believe in the gospel of the grace of Christ. We all believe that sinning is not appropriate for any Christian and grace teaches us how to live godly and uprightly in this present world.

I agree with you we have all had religious backgrounds and been taught to believe things were true. From my own experience I learnt not to simply trust what I had been taught over 35 years ago. Not so much because of what been preached, but due to what hadn't been preached( the whole message) if you get what I mean.
Over the years I also learnt not just to accept everything written by a minister in a book, even if much of what he wrote I liked. The bible always had to be the bottom line.