Free will vs Predestination

[Nuhen]

How did my editing change the meaning of what you said? It's normal practice to quote only the particular part that a person is addressing.

I said, "[What] I'm saying is that He predestines with His foreknowledge." You edited that and made it like I said, "I'm saying that predestining with foreknowledge is not predestination."

That's not just quoting a particular part of what I said, you went in and edited my quote. It most certainly did change the meaning of what I said, because what I said was supportive of my argument. What you edited says that I'm going completely against my argument.

If you can't make a point without editing what a person says, don't make the point. But it's dishonest and immature to edit a person just to make a point.

 

[Nuhen]

Waiit a minute, I didn't even quote you, I must have quoted myself. I meant to quote your:

How in heavens name did you quote yourself? Nowhere on the entire page did you say what you quoted.

 

[MahogonySnail]

No I actually mistakenly put my reply "I'm saying that predestining with foreknowledge is not predestination. I quoted my own reply.


within the quotation brackets.


It should read:

What I'm saying is that He predestines with His foreknowledge.

I'm saying that predestining with foreknowledge is not predestination.

etc.

In basic terms you can understand I QUOTED MY OWN REPLY.

 

[Nuhen]

No I actually mistakenly put my reply "I'm saying that predestining with foreknowledge is not predestination. I quoted my own reply.


within the quotation brackets.


It should read:




I'm saying that predestining with foreknowledge is not predestination.

etc.

Ah, ok. In that case, I apologize. I think I'm just going to log out and go lie down. I've got a very bad headache and it's not helping my mood any, and I don't need to be snapping at people.

 

[MahogonySnail]

re: bad mood, You don't want to end up like me. Get well, and God bless.

 

[Nuhen]

re: bad mood, You don't want to end up like me. Get well, and God bless.

Or the old me. I used to be the kind of person in a permanent bad mood. Thanks, G-d bless you too.

 

[WomanLovesTX]

Free Will vs. Predestined: We stand at the age of accountability at a fork in the road. Both roads lead to the King. Road A takes you to grace and then from there many stops of new understanding. We reach sanctification, justification and glorification. Road A provides you with a guide, counselor, protector and comforter and teaches you along the way to desire to be apart of the King's family and also know you are of the King's family if you remain on this road and you are invited to the King's house in the horse and carriage. Sometimes the King comes to meet you right were you are so that your journey is shortened. However, not all those who choose Road A first will remain on Road A, however turn around and want to check out the Road B. Now those who choose Road B at the fork will also take them on a journey. They have no guide, counselor and protectorand so must travel in hope without no assurance they will find the King. Road B .travelers find many int eresting things along the way. Harlots are a great stop. The booze and drugs stop is so much fun. Whom? Perhaps should go backwards back to the Harlots. Now to move on to another place with free booze. The casino's. When traveler at Road B began his journey he was given the same amount of money as the traveler at Road A. Now after all the prostitutes, liquor and drugs, and gambling the man who took Road B decides he wants to turn his back to Road B and seek Road A. There are many on the trip back. Bandits and robbers, murderers,
and not only the threatening, but tempting jobs that are for destruction. Nor Road A also had the bad, ugly and mean, but Road B travelers have no guide, comforter, counselor or protector. Here on Road B each is own his own and have no regard to think of others. The King at the end of Road B is an impostor. Sometimes the word gets back to traveler on Road B saying turn away, go back, don't do as I have done. This opportunity makes or breaks the traveler. Some don't believe the report and says it is not that way for all, I'll take my chances and continue to travel.
The roads on A and B both have some good traveling patches and some rough patches and even what appears to some insurmountable. Both A and B travelers must climb the insurmountable, however Road A has many Eagles.

Now the moral of the story is that all are predestined to meet the King. Some start on the correct road that leads to the real King. Some on Road A backslide and go back to the beginning of the fork and travel Road B. Those on road B that left road A may get the word they are being led to the false King and then choose to get off that road. That is not the destiny they desire. Only two roads, so the B traveler must try road A. The saying goes fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. So all who came to the fork had free-will to try. They all were predestine to meet a King. They continued to have free-will as they traveled their chosen road.

 

[Thaddaeus]

Free Will vs. Predestined: We stand at the age of accountability at a fork in the road. Both roads lead to the King. Road A takes you to grace and then from there many stops of new understanding. We reach sanctification, justification and glorification. Road A provides you with a guide, counselor, protector and comforter and teaches you along the way to desire to be apart of the King's family and also know you are of the King's family if you remain on this road and you are invited to the King's house in the horse and carriage. Sometimes the King comes to meet you right were you are so that your journey is shortened. However, not all those who choose Road A first will remain on Road A, however turn around and want to check out the Road B. Now those who choose Road B at the fork will also take them on a journey. They have no guide, counselor and protectorand so must travel in hope without no assurance they will find the King. Road B .travelers find many int eresting things along the way. Harlots are a great stop. The booze and drugs stop is so much fun. Whom? Perhaps should go backwards back to the Harlots. Now to move on to another place with free booze. The casino's. When traveler at Road B began his journey he was given the same amount of money as the traveler at Road A. Now after all the prostitutes, liquor and drugs, and gambling the man who took Road B decides he wants to turn his back to Road B and seek Road A. There are many on the trip back. Bandits and robbers, murderers,
and not only the threatening, but tempting jobs that are for destruction. Nor Road A also had the bad, ugly and mean, but Road B travelers have no guide, comforter, counselor or protector. Here on Road B each is own his own and have no regard to think of others. The King at the end of Road B is an impostor. Sometimes the word gets back to traveler on Road B saying turn away, go back, don't do as I have done. This opportunity makes or breaks the traveler. Some don't believe the report and says it is not that way for all, I'll take my chances and continue to travel.
The roads on A and B both have some good traveling patches and some rough patches and even what appears to some insurmountable. Both A and B travelers must climb the insurmountable, however Road A has many Eagles.

Now the moral of the story is that all are predestined to meet the King. Some start on the correct road that leads to the real King. Some on Road A backslide and go back to the beginning of the fork and travel Road B. Those on road B that left road A may get the word they are being led to the false King and then choose to get off that road. That is not the destiny they desire. Only two roads, so the B traveler must try road A. The saying goes fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. So all who came to the fork had free-will to try. They all were predestine to meet a King. They continued to have free-will as they traveled their chosen road.

the question about election/predesination is not about every knee bowing one day,( as we all we met the King one day), as this has been predestined. but the question of predestination is will God force you to bow willingly or force you to bow unwillingly on that day if it is by force then how can it be willingly? Let all that thrist come and drink of the living water, freely

 

[joint-heir]

AS A PASTOR
I MUST CONFESS
I AM AMAZED AT HOW MANY OF YOU
AS YOU READ THE BIBLE
ONLY LOOK AT IT THRU
THE POINT OF CONTACT
WHICH IS.......BLACK INK ON WHITE PAPER

THE FIRST COMMANDMENT IS TO HAVE NO OTHER gods BEFORE ME
BUT
THE GREATEST COMMANDMENT IS.......LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR ---AS--- YOU WOULD LOVE YOURSELF
HOW CAN YOU LOVE SOMEONE IF YOU CAN'T DO IT WILLINGLY IN FREE WILL...?
LETS BE HONEST FOR A MOMENT HERE
THERE ISNT MUCH ON THE PREDESTINED MENU FOR THOSE AROUND TO LOVE BY OBEDIENCE
I CAN FIND SEVERAL REASON IMMEDIATELY AS I LOOK AROUND TO NOT WANT TO LOVE ANYONE
SO WHAT MAKES ME LOVES THOSE I NECASSARY WISH NOT TO LOVE...?
PREDESTINY OR FREE WILL...?
HOW CAN GOD BE A TRUE GOD OF LOVE IF HE PREDESTINES SOME TO HEAVEN AND THE MAJORITY TO HELL...?
IS THIS NOT CONSIDERED INJUSTICE...?
EVEN A SOVEREIGN GOD WOULD NOT BE TRAPPED WITHIN THE CONFINDS OF INJUSTICE

IF I LOVE MY NEIGHBORS IT IS BECAUSE A LOVING GOD TAUGHT ME TO DO SO
AND THAT SAME LOVING GOD
WOULD NEVER BE PUT INTO A SITUATION WHERE HE WOULD HAVE TO SEGRAGATE HIMSELF
THAT IS THE SAME AS ASKING CAN GOD LIE OR CAN GOD DEFEAT HIMSELF
AND THAT ANSWER IS...........NO HE CANNOT
GOD HAS NEVER WILLINGLY.......SENT ANYONE TO HELL ON GOD's OWN DIRECTION
EVEN LUCIFER
ALLOWED INIQUITY TO BE FOUND WITHIN HIMSELF TO BELIEVE HE WAS GREATER THAN GOD
AND HE WAS MADE LIKE ALL ANGELS TO SERVE AND WORSHIP THE CREATOR OF ALL THINGS
BUT GOD GAVE HIM A FREE WILL SINCE HE WAS THE MOST BEAUTIFUL OF ALL GOD's CREATION
AND IN THIS FREE WILL
LUCIFER ALLOWED HIMSELF TO BECOME A SERVANT OF SELF PLEASURE RATHER THAN OF GOD
AND THIS IS HOW WE HAVE BEEN MADE OURSELVES

WE ARE ONLY PREDESTINED EACH AND EVERYONE OF US TO FULFILL THE WILL OF GOD
AND TO SERVE GOD IN OUR OWN INTENTIONS WITHOUT FORCE BUT WILLINGLY
THIS WILL WE HAVE TO SERVE GOD IS NOT BECAUSE WE ARE PREDESTINED TO
IT IS BECAUSE AFTER ALL THE OPTIONS WE ARE GIVEN ---WE CHOOSE TO SERVE GOD---
THIS CHOICE WE MAKE IS NOT MANDATORY BY ANY MEANS AT ALL
BUT
IF WE CHOOSE IT WE ARE THEN REWARDED BY THE CHOICE WE MADE TO SERVE GOD
A REWARD FOR SERVITUDE
COULD NEVER EVER BE CATEGORIZED AS PREDESTINED
A REWARD HAS TO BE EARNED
A REWARD HAS TO COMPLY WITH A CERTAIN MEASURE OF ACCOMPLISHMENT
YOU ARE NOT ACCOMPLISHING ANYTHING IF YOUR GIVEN SOMETHING FOR NOTHING
WHEN WE READ ABOUT THOSE WHO WERE MARTYRED FOR JESUS
THEY HAD A CHOICE BEFORE DEATH TO SAY ---I AM NOT A FOLLOWER OR I DO NOT BELIEVE HE IS GOD---
BUT .......WILLINGLY.......THEY ALL SAID.......JESUS IS MY GOD AND KILL ME IF YOU CHOOSE ---I WILL NOT DENY HIM---
SO
THEY DIED IN FREE WILL AND LOOK AT THEIR REWARD FOR THEIR SERVITUDE
THEY WERE NEVER BORN FOR THE PREDESTINED PURPOSE TO DIE FOR GOD
THEY DIED FOR GOD
BECAUSE OF THE JEWS AND ROMANS IN THE AFTERMATH OF WHAT JESUS HAD ACCOMPLISHED
THESE MARTYRS WHO DIED WERE THE RESULT OF JESUS KICKING SOME SERIOUS RELIGEOUS ---BUTTTTTTTTT---
ALL THESE MARTYRS HAD TO DO IN THIS TIME OF HOSTILITY WAS SAY LOOK---WE DO NOT BELIEVE---
AND THEY WOULD HAVE NOT BEEN MURDERED
BUT
THEY CHOSE TO SAY ...JESUS IS GOD AND MY SAVIOR THIS SAME ONE WHO YOU HAVE KILLED
THEN THEY SAID ...REPENT, FOR YOU ARE SINNERS
THIS WAS ALL DONE IN FREE WILL
NO ONE MADE THEM SAY THIS ... THEY CHOSE TO SAY THIS
----------FREE WILL----------

 

[DinoDillinger]

Men are slaves...
John 8:
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

A slave loves his master.

Matthew 6:24
“No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.

You see here that men by nature are slaves to sin, lovers of sin and despisers of God.

You also see that it is not man who is freed by his choice but the Son who frees him.

John 6:37
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

You see that all who are freed come to the Son.

This is the power of the gospel, those who are freed come like a moth to a flame. The choice is made by all who are freed as you see here.

The gospel is not presented in the gospels as a choice for men to make, but as a command.

Jesus said my sheep hear my voice, and they follow me. Those are the seed of promise.


I often hear free will people complain or wonder about all the people who never hear the gospel, and if it is true that it is man's choice to believe that would be wrong huh? Since they didn't have the chance that you did. I have heard wranglings in their speech trying to find scripture to defend the idea that they are somehow presented the gospel after death or something. Predestination explains this much better, that the seed of promise will hear the gospel, those whom God will have mercy on will hear and believe at some point in there life.

The complaints made here are addressed in Romans 9.

 

[WomanLovesTX]

the question about election/predesination is not about every knee bowing one day,( as we all we met the King one day), as this has been predestined. but the question of predestination is will God force you to bow willingly or force you to bow unwillingly on that day if it is by force then how can it be willingly? Let all that thrist come and drink of the living water, freely

The question is free-will vs. predestination. As for as election, I equivocate with the chosen. They had no choice. God cast the ballot (elected) and chose (predestined) the Israelite for the chosen nation that Christ's lineage would come from. Jesus "called" the disciples to come and follow Him and they of free-will did.

 

[Nuhen]

HOW CAN GOD BE A TRUE GOD OF LOVE IF HE PREDESTINES SOME TO HEAVEN AND THE MAJORITY TO HELL...?
IS THIS NOT CONSIDERED INJUSTICE...?
EVEN A SOVEREIGN GOD WOULD NOT BE TRAPPED WITHIN THE CONFINDS OF INJUSTICE

No, it is not injustice. It is completely and totally just for G-d to send EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US to hell. None of us deserve anything BUT eternal d a m nation. The fact that some of us WON'T be going to hell just shows the grace, mercy, and love of G-d.

AND THAT SAME LOVING GOD

WOULD NEVER BE PUT INTO A SITUATION WHERE HE WOULD HAVE TO SEGRAGATE HIMSELF
THAT IS THE SAME AS ASKING CAN GOD LIE OR CAN GOD DEFEAT HIMSELF
AND THAT ANSWER IS...........NO HE CANNOT
GOD HAS NEVER WILLINGLY.......SENT ANYONE TO HELL ON GOD's OWN DIRECTION
EVEN LUCIFER
ALLOWED INIQUITY TO BE FOUND WITHIN HIMSELF TO BELIEVE HE WAS GREATER THAN GOD
AND HE WAS MADE LIKE ALL ANGELS TO SERVE AND WORSHIP THE CREATOR OF ALL THINGS
BUT GOD GAVE HIM A FREE WILL SINCE HE WAS THE MOST BEAUTIFUL OF ALL GOD's CREATION
AND IN THIS FREE WILL
LUCIFER ALLOWED HIMSELF TO BECOME A SERVANT OF SELF PLEASURE RATHER THAN OF GOD
AND THIS IS HOW WE HAVE BEEN MADE OURSELVES

WE ARE ONLY PREDESTINED EACH AND EVERYONE OF US TO FULFILL THE WILL OF GOD
AND TO SERVE GOD IN OUR OWN INTENTIONS WITHOUT FORCE BUT WILLINGLY
THIS WILL WE HAVE TO SERVE GOD IS NOT BECAUSE WE ARE PREDESTINED TO
IT IS BECAUSE AFTER ALL THE OPTIONS WE ARE GIVEN ---WE CHOOSE TO SERVE GOD---
THIS CHOICE WE MAKE IS NOT MANDATORY BY ANY MEANS AT ALL
BUT
IF WE CHOOSE IT WE ARE THEN REWARDED BY THE CHOICE WE MADE TO SERVE GOD
A REWARD FOR SERVITUDE
COULD NEVER EVER BE CATEGORIZED AS PREDESTINED
A REWARD HAS TO BE EARNED
A REWARD HAS TO COMPLY WITH A CERTAIN MEASURE OF ACCOMPLISHMENT
YOU ARE NOT ACCOMPLISHING ANYTHING IF YOUR GIVEN SOMETHING FOR NOTHING
WHEN WE READ ABOUT THOSE WHO WERE MARTYRED FOR JESUS
THEY HAD A CHOICE BEFORE DEATH TO SAY ---I AM NOT A FOLLOWER OR I DO NOT BELIEVE HE IS GOD---
BUT .......WILLINGLY.......THEY ALL SAID.......JESUS IS MY GOD AND KILL ME IF YOU CHOOSE ---I WILL NOT DENY HIM---
SO
THEY DIED IN FREE WILL AND LOOK AT THEIR REWARD FOR THEIR SERVITUDE
THEY WERE NEVER BORN FOR THE PREDESTINED PURPOSE TO DIE FOR GOD
THEY DIED FOR GOD
BECAUSE OF THE JEWS AND ROMANS IN THE AFTERMATH OF WHAT JESUS HAD ACCOMPLISHED
THESE MARTYRS WHO DIED WERE THE RESULT OF JESUS KICKING SOME SERIOUS RELIGEOUS ---BUTTTTTTTTT---
ALL THESE MARTYRS HAD TO DO IN THIS TIME OF HOSTILITY WAS SAY LOOK---WE DO NOT BELIEVE---
AND THEY WOULD HAVE NOT BEEN MURDERED
BUT
THEY CHOSE TO SAY ...JESUS IS GOD AND MY SAVIOR THIS SAME ONE WHO YOU HAVE KILLED
THEN THEY SAID ...REPENT, FOR YOU ARE SINNERS
THIS WAS ALL DONE IN FREE WILL
NO ONE MADE THEM SAY THIS ... THEY CHOSE TO SAY THIS
----------FREE WILL----------

I produced Scripture. Your words fall on deaf ears unless you can do the same.

 

[DABEARS85]

Nuhen, I produced scripture myself. This argument goes nowhere when people on the other side refuse to listen to even scripture.

The bible clearly states we have free will. It also states God predestines certain events, and the people in them, to happen. The bible supports both, but predestination is a blanket statement, so it makes it false. To limit God to predestination means you are limiting his power and his sovereignty.

 

[joint-heir]

No, it is not injustice. It is completely and totally just for G-d to send EVERY SINGLE ONE OF US to hell. None of us deserve anything BUT eternal d a m nation. The fact that some of us WON'T be going to hell just shows the grace, mercy, and love of G-d.



I produced Scripture. Your words fall on deaf ears unless you can do the same.

YOU ALSO LACK COMMON SENSE
MAYBE ITS DUE TO YOUR AGE
BUT
I CAN TAKE ANY SCRIPTURE AND MAKE IT INTO ANYTHING I CHOOSE AT MY DESIRE
SO FAR YOU ONLY HAVE PROVEN THE BIBLE TO YOU IS.......
BLACK INK ON WHITE PAPER

 

[Nuhen]

Nuhen, I produced scripture myself. This argument goes nowhere when people on the other side refuse to listen to even scripture.

Look in a mirror before pretending it's only the other side refusing to listen to Scripture.

I wasn't talking to you, anyway. I clearly quoted joint-heir and asked HIM to produce Scripture.

The bible clearly states we have free will. It also states God predestines certain events, and the people in them, to happen. The bible supports both, but predestination is a blanket statement, so it makes it false. To limit God to predestination means you are limiting his power and his sovereignty.

And you yourself limit G-d by making Him base His will on your choices. You said so yourself.

 

[DABEARS85]

And you yourself limit G-d by making Him base His will on your choices. You said so yourself.

I never said that. You did. Also, by saying there is no free will, you are strictly saying that Jesus' power to save is null and void and doesn't matter. The Lord already gave the invitation for us to accept Him or not. That is His will. To deny that is denying scripture.

 

[Nuhen]

I never said that. You did. Also, by saying there is no free will, you are strictly saying that Jesus' power to save is null and void and doesn't matter. The Lord already gave the invitation for us to accept Him or not. That is His will. To deny that is denying scripture.

You asked that as a question, which implies that is what you believe. Otherwise, why would you waste time asking the question?

And no, that's not what I'm saying. Yeshua's power to save is immensely important. Just because not EVERYONE will be saved does not mean his sacrifice is null and void. He was still needed as a perfect, spotless sacrifice for the forgiveness of the sins of those whom G-d chose.

 

[DABEARS85]

You asked that as a question, which implies that is what you believe. Otherwise, why would you waste time asking the question?

And no, that's not what I'm saying. Yeshua's power to save is immensely important. Just because not EVERYONE will be saved does not mean his sacrifice is null and void. He was still needed as a perfect, spotless sacrifice for the forgiveness of the sins of those whom G-d chose.

The point is we have to accept Him to be saved. That takes free will to do it. Predestination says that you will accept BECAUSE you are predestined. That isn't grace. That is like programming a robot. Certain people don't deserve grace over others based on an unwilling choice. That isn't how God works, and to say that it is would be to say you don't know the Lord in my eyes.

 

[Nuhen]

The point is we have to accept Him to be saved.

Can you show me that in Scripture?

That isn't grace.

Yes it is. I'll say it again: not a single human being who has ever or will ever live deserves heaven. We ALL deserve eternal d a m nation in hell. The fact that ANYONE will be saved shows the grace and mercy of G-d.

That isn't how God works, and to say that it is would be to say you don't know the Lord in my eyes.

Then show me in Scripture where it says that's how G-d works. As I've said, I'm on the fence on this issue. I don't believe in free will, but I also don't believe in predestination. I don't know which side is right, I'm just playing devil's advocate and arguing pro-predestination for the sole purpose of learning more about both sides.

 

[DABEARS85]

Can you show me that in Scripture?

(John 3:16) "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life"

(John 14:6) "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

(Romans 10:9-11,13) “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. …For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”


(John 1:12) "But to all who believed Him and accepted Him, He gave the right to become children of God."
(Ephesians 2:8-9) "For by grace are ye saved through faith and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.


(Romans 3:28) "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
(Romans 6:23) "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord."

Yes it is. I'll say it again: not a single human being who has ever or will ever live deserves heaven. We ALL deserve eternal d a m nation in hell. The fact that ANYONE will be saved shows the grace and mercy of G-d.

I don't argue with this. We agree on this. What I disagree with is the object of predestination. Predestination states that certain people are programmed like robots to accept the Lord, and some are not. That would be grace by programming, not by the choice in our hearts. That would be incorrect.

Then show me in Scripture where it says that's how G-d works. As I've said, I'm on the fence on this issue. I don't believe in free will, but I also don't believe in predestination. I don't know which side is right, I'm just playing devil's advocate and arguing pro-predestination for the sole purpose of learning more about both sides.

You are the personality type that argues the other side for clarification. Oh the wonders of psychology We work different ways. God truly does make us all unique. As far as how God works....

I had to look a few things up. I did find out about God's will always being done despite what a person chooses, although a person has the choice to reject His will... He will then fulfill it through another:

(Esther 4:14) For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance for the Jews will arise from another place, but you and your father's family will perish. And who knows but that you have come to royal position for such a time as this?"

This clearly explains God still gives man a choice to do His will or not. There are always consequences, but he gives free will either way.