Free will vs Predestination
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Also, this is wrong. God did not create evil. Evil by definition is to go against the will of God. Satan created evil by rebelling. Man followed along.
(1 John 2:15-17) Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world. The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever
Need more anti-predestination verses?
(Mark 16:15-16) And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
It sure sounds like a choice to me.
(1 John 2:15-17) Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world. The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever
Need more anti-predestination verses?
(Mark 16:15-16) And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
It sure sounds like a choice to me.
Isaiah 45:7
I form light, I create darkness; I make well-being, I create woe; I, Adonai, do all these things.
The Hebrew word there for "woe" is "rah", which means "evil".
This isn't supportive of either side. Those who are predestined to do the will of G-d WILL do the will of G-d, and those predestined to not do the will of G-d will not.
So either way, this verse is still true.
It does, but that's when we read ALL of Scripture together.
I form light, I create darkness; I make well-being, I create woe; I, Adonai, do all these things.
The Hebrew word there for "woe" is "rah", which means "evil".
This isn't supportive of either side. Those who are predestined to do the will of G-d WILL do the will of G-d, and those predestined to not do the will of G-d will not.
So either way, this verse is still true.
It does, but that's when we read ALL of Scripture together.
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Well... your interpretation is wrong too.
Isaiah is showing opposites as shown:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7 KJV)
The problem is, evil is not the opposite of peace.
In Hebrew, the word for peace is translated shâlôm. That term has MANY meanings... but mostly well being, aka peace.
The term Râ‛âh which you are using is translated as evil in KJV, but it has MANY meanings as well... this is when a concordance is of such good use. The word Râ‛âh is actually meaning adversity... chaos. That is the opposite of peace.
To better realize what I am talking about, you need to look at other translations:
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.(Isaiah 45:7 NIV)
This is when you need to read all of the scripture, and not just one verse to fully realize what I'm saying.
Another good example of KJV mistranslated would be:
Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? (Lamentations 3:38)
NIV version:
Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come? (Lamentations 3:38 NIV)
See the difference?
Evil is the opposite of good. God is completely good, therefore He cannot do evil. He cannot do morally evil things. Therefore, He did not create it.
God created all things, but evil isn't something that is "created". It is simply the absence of good. It is the same as cold is the absence of heat, it isn't an entity of itself. The same as darkness is the absence of light.
God didn't create evil. He did allow it though. He allowed it based on *drum roll, here it comes* free will. He gave the angels and Satan free will, just as He gave man free will. If He didn't, then Satan would have never been able to rebel, and Adam and Eve would never have sinned. Creation would have been perfect, and there would be no need for heaven or hell. God didn't make His creation with flaws. He is perfect in all ways. The only logical way that creation fell from perfection was free will. Predestination doesn't allow for that, and thus it cannot be logical to believe in it. That would limit God to being imperfect based on His imperfect creation, and I for one do not accept that as anywhere near logical.
I hope this helps at all.
Isaiah is showing opposites as shown:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7 KJV)
The problem is, evil is not the opposite of peace.
In Hebrew, the word for peace is translated shâlôm. That term has MANY meanings... but mostly well being, aka peace.
The term Râ‛âh which you are using is translated as evil in KJV, but it has MANY meanings as well... this is when a concordance is of such good use. The word Râ‛âh is actually meaning adversity... chaos. That is the opposite of peace.
To better realize what I am talking about, you need to look at other translations:
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.(Isaiah 45:7 NIV)
This is when you need to read all of the scripture, and not just one verse to fully realize what I'm saying.
Another good example of KJV mistranslated would be:
Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? (Lamentations 3:38)
NIV version:
Is it not from the mouth of the Most High that both calamities and good things come? (Lamentations 3:38 NIV)
See the difference?
Evil is the opposite of good. God is completely good, therefore He cannot do evil. He cannot do morally evil things. Therefore, He did not create it.
God created all things, but evil isn't something that is "created". It is simply the absence of good. It is the same as cold is the absence of heat, it isn't an entity of itself. The same as darkness is the absence of light.
God didn't create evil. He did allow it though. He allowed it based on *drum roll, here it comes* free will. He gave the angels and Satan free will, just as He gave man free will. If He didn't, then Satan would have never been able to rebel, and Adam and Eve would never have sinned. Creation would have been perfect, and there would be no need for heaven or hell. God didn't make His creation with flaws. He is perfect in all ways. The only logical way that creation fell from perfection was free will. Predestination doesn't allow for that, and thus it cannot be logical to believe in it. That would limit God to being imperfect based on His imperfect creation, and I for one do not accept that as anywhere near logical.
I hope this helps at all.
So, Isaiah lied when he quoted G-d as saying "I create evil". Because I actually am not interpreting that verse at all, just saying what it, quite clearly, says. There's no interpretation necessary, in my mind.
Also, I speak Hebrew and have the original Hebrew text, so I don't need a concordance. The word used in that verse is "rah" which is clearly translated as "evil".
The concept that HaSatan rebelled against G-d is actually based more on Dante Alighieri's Inferno and...I forget the other guy's name. But Scripturally, Satan is actually shown as a servant of G-d doing that which G-d tells him to.
*EDIT* Also, I don't like or use the KJV. Just an fyi
Also, I speak Hebrew and have the original Hebrew text, so I don't need a concordance. The word used in that verse is "rah" which is clearly translated as "evil".
The concept that HaSatan rebelled against G-d is actually based more on Dante Alighieri's Inferno and...I forget the other guy's name. But Scripturally, Satan is actually shown as a servant of G-d doing that which G-d tells him to.
*EDIT* Also, I don't like or use the KJV. Just an fyi
D
So, Isaiah lied when he quoted G-d as saying "I create evil". Because I actually am not interpreting that verse at all, just saying what it, quite clearly, says. There's no interpretation necessary, in my mind.
Also, I speak Hebrew and have the original Hebrew text, so I don't need a concordance. The word used in that verse is "rah" which is clearly translated as "evil".
The concept that HaSatan rebelled against G-d is actually based more on Dante Alighieri's Inferno and...I forget the other guy's name. But Scripturally, Satan is actually shown as a servant of G-d doing that which G-d tells him to.
*EDIT* Also, I don't like or use the KJV. Just an fyi
Also, I speak Hebrew and have the original Hebrew text, so I don't need a concordance. The word used in that verse is "rah" which is clearly translated as "evil".
The concept that HaSatan rebelled against G-d is actually based more on Dante Alighieri's Inferno and...I forget the other guy's name. But Scripturally, Satan is actually shown as a servant of G-d doing that which G-d tells him to.
*EDIT* Also, I don't like or use the KJV. Just an fyi
Also, you have a warped view of Satan. Satan WAS a servant of God, and he still is used in God's will, but he did rebel. To deny that would be to say that God strictly made Satan so he would show the world sin. No wonder you believe in predestination. This would mean God created everything so it would fall and become imperfect as a rule of thumb.
G-d does not DO evil, but He certainly created it. Nothing exists outside the will of G-d. All things were created by G-d. And to say that He just "allows" evil is pretty much the same thing. Either way, evil still happens because of an action on G-d's part.
And yes, "rah" in Hebrew is "evil". It has a variety of definitions, but they all classify, in Hebrew, under "evil". There's no way around that. Any honest Hebrew scholar will tell you that. If a verse uses the word "rah", it's talking about something that is EVIL.
Care to prove that with Scripture?
Oh, what an idea
And yes, "rah" in Hebrew is "evil". It has a variety of definitions, but they all classify, in Hebrew, under "evil". There's no way around that. Any honest Hebrew scholar will tell you that. If a verse uses the word "rah", it's talking about something that is EVIL.
Care to prove that with Scripture?
Oh, what an idea
D
Care to show in scripture that Satan is just a good servant of the Lord? I could go deep into this, but to be completely honest, scripture doesn't support much from the Satan/fallen angel aspect except small excerpts here and there. To be honest, God must not think we need to know that much about it, or it would be explained more in scripture.
That being said, the book of Job is the main source for what we know about Satan. Satan is the accuser, correct... but he also rebelled. The rebellion part is mainly taken from Revelations. As far as the original story, it was said far before the bible was written.
Either way, I'd like you to do some research on it for me instead of me doing all this work for you. If you just want to deny everything I point out, that's fine, because I don't need to read through scripture all day and night to go nowhere with it. If you don't have an open mind, you don't have an open mind. I am just trying to help you understand a few things.
So as far as Satan goes, there really isn't a whole lot to work with either way. Revelations shows Satan's true nature quite clearly though. If Satan never rebelled, then he sure wouldn't be fighting God in the end times, would he?
Here is some food for thought:
(Isaiah 14:12-15) "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."
That being said, the book of Job is the main source for what we know about Satan. Satan is the accuser, correct... but he also rebelled. The rebellion part is mainly taken from Revelations. As far as the original story, it was said far before the bible was written.
Either way, I'd like you to do some research on it for me instead of me doing all this work for you. If you just want to deny everything I point out, that's fine, because I don't need to read through scripture all day and night to go nowhere with it. If you don't have an open mind, you don't have an open mind. I am just trying to help you understand a few things.
So as far as Satan goes, there really isn't a whole lot to work with either way. Revelations shows Satan's true nature quite clearly though. If Satan never rebelled, then he sure wouldn't be fighting God in the end times, would he?
Here is some food for thought:
(Isaiah 14:12-15) "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."
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You mentioned Job, and that's great! Because it's through the story of Job that we see just how much of a servant of G-d Satan is
I'm actually planning on writing up an analysis of the book of Job here in a day or two, so I'd rather not go into detail in this thread for fear of repeating myself. But basically what we see in Job is Satan walking up to G-d. The two are completely amiable. G-d even brags about Job to Satan. So Satan, whom you rightfully called the Accuser (which does not make him evil), told G-d that Job would give up anything for his life. So G-d said, nah, Job wouldn't do that. Satan says, fine, may I please screw him over? G-d says sure, but you can't kill him. SAtan then does everything G-d tells him to do.
I'm actually planning on writing up an analysis of the book of Job here in a day or two, so I'd rather not go into detail in this thread for fear of repeating myself. But basically what we see in Job is Satan walking up to G-d. The two are completely amiable. G-d even brags about Job to Satan. So Satan, whom you rightfully called the Accuser (which does not make him evil), told G-d that Job would give up anything for his life. So G-d said, nah, Job wouldn't do that. Satan says, fine, may I please screw him over? G-d says sure, but you can't kill him. SAtan then does everything G-d tells him to do.
D
You mentioned Job, and that's great! Because it's through the story of Job that we see just how much of a servant of G-d Satan is
I'm actually planning on writing up an analysis of the book of Job here in a day or two, so I'd rather not go into detail in this thread for fear of repeating myself. But basically what we see in Job is Satan walking up to G-d. The two are completely amiable. G-d even brags about Job to Satan. So Satan, whom you rightfully called the Accuser (which does not make him evil), told G-d that Job would give up anything for his life. So G-d said, nah, Job wouldn't do that. Satan says, fine, may I please screw him over? G-d says sure, but you can't kill him. SAtan then does everything G-d tells him to do.
I'm actually planning on writing up an analysis of the book of Job here in a day or two, so I'd rather not go into detail in this thread for fear of repeating myself. But basically what we see in Job is Satan walking up to G-d. The two are completely amiable. G-d even brags about Job to Satan. So Satan, whom you rightfully called the Accuser (which does not make him evil), told G-d that Job would give up anything for his life. So G-d said, nah, Job wouldn't do that. Satan says, fine, may I please screw him over? G-d says sure, but you can't kill him. SAtan then does everything G-d tells him to do.
The book of Job is not the only book that describes Satan. To think that would be foolish. Satan didn't DO what God wanted. He did was he was ALLOWED to do after asking God. Nothing can be done without God's permission. God allows evil to happen, but he doesn't do it. You refuse to understand that aspect.
If you want to see Satan as a servant of the Lord, go ahead... but just remember you cannot have two masters. Either you serve God or you serve satan. They are not on the same team, even if the Lord has had his will be done through the use of satan (like in the book of Job, or through Judas so that Christ would be sacrificed etc)
Please do But avoid verses that say Lucifer or Morning Star, because neither are actually referring to Satan. Especially since "lucifer" is actually a...I believe it's Latin, for "morning star". It's not actually a name.
And you keep saying that I'm saying G-d does evil, which I've not ever said. G-d did in fact want Satan to afflict Job. In fact, at one point G-d Himself afflicted Job FOR Satan.
I don't see how it is serving Satan to acknowledge that he acts completely within the confines of the will of G-d.
But avoid verses that say Lucifer or Morning Star, because neither are actually referring to Satan. Especially since "lucifer" is actually a...I believe it's Latin, for "morning star". It's not actually a name. And you keep saying that I'm saying G-d does evil, which I've not ever said. G-d did in fact want Satan to afflict Job. In fact, at one point G-d Himself afflicted Job FOR Satan.
I don't see how it is serving Satan to acknowledge that he acts completely within the confines of the will of G-d.
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If he confines of the will of God, then how can he sin? To sin would be to go against the will of God. You cannot sin if you are doing the will of God. It doesn't work. Are you saying Satan is sinless? If not, then how can he be doing the will of God in all things? The same goes for man. How can God predestine men to sin, if sinning is by definition going against His will?
1) Sinning is not going against the will of G-d, it's going against G-d Himself.
2) Where's it say Satan sinned?
3) Even if Satan sinned, he would still be doing the will of G-d because NOTHING happens outside the will of G-d. To say anything can happen outside the will of G-d is to take away from the sovereignty of G-d.
2) Where's it say Satan sinned?
3) Even if Satan sinned, he would still be doing the will of G-d because NOTHING happens outside the will of G-d. To say anything can happen outside the will of G-d is to take away from the sovereignty of G-d.
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If satan is blameless, then why is he thrown into hell in the last days? Why is he chained for 1000 years during the millennial kingdom? Why would he "fall from heaven like lightning"??? If he hasn't sinned, then he would not be punished, because God is just.
I'm not sure you will ever stop and listen. You just ask me over and over again to name scripture because you refuse to believe it, and when I do you try to negate it. Afterword, I show more scripture and so you hurry and move on to another issue to argue over.
To be quite honest, I'm tired of arguing with you. Read the scripture yourself for once. You have yet to point out anything significant with scripture. You keep asking me to show you scripture and yet you refuse to do it back. I'm going to bed anyway. I'll continue this tomorrow. I can always find scripture for what I know is true, but you have to learn to read it.
Also, use your God given common sense. You are saying satan is sinless right now. You really need to reevaluate your position as a christian/jew/whatever you are if you are going to keep up an intelligent discussion. You are arguing simply for the sake of arguing now, and you are picking very bad sides to argue over. I'm quite positive you know you are on a losing side, but you choose it anyway for the mere sake of it all.
I'm not sure you will ever stop and listen. You just ask me over and over again to name scripture because you refuse to believe it, and when I do you try to negate it. Afterword, I show more scripture and so you hurry and move on to another issue to argue over.
To be quite honest, I'm tired of arguing with you. Read the scripture yourself for once. You have yet to point out anything significant with scripture. You keep asking me to show you scripture and yet you refuse to do it back. I'm going to bed anyway. I'll continue this tomorrow. I can always find scripture for what I know is true, but you have to learn to read it.
Also, use your God given common sense. You are saying satan is sinless right now. You really need to reevaluate your position as a christian/jew/whatever you are if you are going to keep up an intelligent discussion. You are arguing simply for the sake of arguing now, and you are picking very bad sides to argue over. I'm quite positive you know you are on a losing side, but you choose it anyway for the mere sake of it all.