Hyper grace

[james57]

What you pwople fail to realise is Paul the Pharisee was in earnest about his religion. He didn't understand the truth, he was following the wrong path, but he was the most ardent of Pharisees. He would probably have taken his religion more seriously than most christians would today. And the more serious you are, the more your shortcomings affect you. Which is probably why looking back he said he had been the worst of sinners.
The legalistic/ ceremonial law could be faultlessly obeyed as a Pharisee. Paul said he faultlessly obeyed that. He could have convinced himself he obeyed the first nine of the ten commandments. Heck I didn't have great guilt concerning any of them when I was young. But it s not possible to kid yourself you can obey the tenth commandment if you understand what that commandment entails

In truth most people on this website would feel more guilt about their shortcomings to the tenth commandment than any other. Wars get started over breaking that commandment. People get killed over it. David broke three of the ten commandments in a row because he broke the tenth. What did Paul say no sin affected you such as this, for then you sin on the inside against your own body. Which of the ten commandments would that most concern breaking, or is the easier of the two to break concerning that particular sin?

So no, Paul the ardent Pharisee could never persuade himself he fully obeyed the tenth commandment, and so that was the commandment he referred to as the one that slew him, as that would be the most common one of the ten to slay anyone who lived under the law.

However, some things are spiritually discerned, not academically discerned through study of the mind. You can do that without the holy spirit leading/ guiding you into truth

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

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True, but much too simplistic to express all truth. Christ obviously does see our sin. Look at what he says to the congregations in Ephesus, Pergamum, Thyatira, Laodicea in Revelation - "I hold against you".

The Bible says "as He is, so are we in this world" 1 John 4:17 When God sees us He sees us based on the perfection of Jesus. Jesus righteousness is our righteousness. The Bible says that because Jesus, who knew no sin, became sin for us, we are now the righteousness of God in Christ. 2 Cor.5:21

Vines Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words defines righteousness as "that gracious gift of God to men whereby all who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ are brought into right relationship with God"

Our right standing with God is based on Jesus right standing before God. He took away all our unrighteousness and gave us the gift of His righteousness. It can only be received., can't be earned.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think that unbelievers do have power to say no to sin.. otherwise they'd all be doing every known sin, and they are not. The same with any of us before we each got saved.

It's possible that the apostle Paul would come into the category too, using the law to refrain from sins, but not having satisfactory results until he got saved.

they have the power to say no to things which do not benefit them much, or cause pain, but they have no power to stop sin.

As a pharisee, They thought it nothing to rob from the widow. Or murder people. or rob people of their riches in self gain.. Paul killed in the name of his god, and did not think it was wrong ar all. when according to the very law he claimed to follow. he was in grave sin.

Bug the law was useless to them, they watered down the law to fit them. and added other easier things to follow and said we are righteous and God loves us because we are so righteous.

If the law had made them conscious of sin, they would have realized their inner sin made them no better than the heathen, or gentile. and instead of murdering Christ and his followers. they would have welcomed them with open arms.

This is a fact james for some reason does not wish to understand..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

True enough, and I am not saying otherwise. Maybe the terminology is confusing or can be misunderstood, but as I said in previous posts, to not be sin-conscious is not to be in denial of sin. It is only to not be focused on it.

yes, which is why Paul said focusing on the law (sin) caused sin to increase, It works opposite of what human wisdom would think.

Then again God did say he would make our wisdom foolish,, when we, as non believers, think Gods wisdom is foolish.

 

[Grace777x70]

Here are teachings which are grace-based looking at the churches in Revelation: It is all in the "lens" we use when we look at scripture as well s what we have "heard" all our religious lives.

The letters to the churches in Revelation are beautiful pictures of the grace and love of Jesus for us!

Laodecia

Laodicea, Part 1: Are You “Hot” Enough for God? (Rev 3:15) – Escape to Reality

What makes Jesus sick?

Laodicea, Part 2: What Makes Jesus Sick? (Rev 3:16) – Escape to Reality

WHo is wretched and poor?

Laodicea, Part 3: Who’s Wretched and Poor? (Rev 3:17) – Escape to Reality

 

[Grace777x70]

Here are some more grace-base teachings about the churches in Revelation.

Strike Her Children Dead (Revelation 2:23)

Strike Her Children Dead (Revelation 2:23) – Escape to Reality

Holding Fast in Thyatira: The Seductress versus the Savior

Holding Fast in Thyatira: The Seductress versus the Savior (Rev 2:18-29) – Escape to Reality

 

[Grace777x70]

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Here are teachings which are grace-based looking at the churches in Revelation: It is all in the "lens" we use when we look at scripture as well s what we have "heard" all our religious lives.

The letters to the churches in Revelation are beautiful pictures of the grace and love of Jesus for us!

Laodecia

Laodicea, Part 1: Are You “Hot” Enough for God? (Rev 3:15) – Escape to Reality

What makes Jesus sick?

Laodicea, Part 2: What Makes Jesus Sick? (Rev 3:16) – Escape to Reality

WHo is wretched and poor?

Laodicea, Part 3: Who’s Wretched and Poor? (Rev 3:17) – Escape to Reality

Too much to wade through to make a point.

 

[PeterJens]

The Law didn't have the ability to free people from sin, but it did provide a way for forgiveness of sins by way of shed blood of animals---imputed righteousness until one sinned again.

Failure. The concept put forward here is the temple and the law failed. But they actually succeeded in demonstrating the problem of sin and the path to reconciliation. A few through faith found the place of intimacy with God, Moses, the prophets, David etc. but they were few, and what was demonstrated was confusion and failure to understand.

Jesus took all the violence, hatred, bitterness that people could throw at Him and forgave them unto death. The judge said if you follow me, I will not hold your sin against you. The key is to aim at holiness, empowered by the Spirit. But this is the inheritence of the law and the prophets not a new gospel. And the sin not held against us is sin done in ignorance, not will full. And the condition is on following.

Everything in hyper-grace sounds ok except not repenting of sin, changing the temple etc in failure and not a shadow, and making the gospel about compromise and not righteousness. The sin we do is our sin, and we need to understand it, in intimate detail, so we can overcome it, and be set free. Jesus carried the consequences of sin, death, and forgave us.
We are saved because we admit the sins commited against Jesus are our sins, so we are forgiven, or the punishment is not taken on us for them. Unless we follow then this is no longer true. We put Jesus to death, we need to drink His blood and eat His flesh, to know the depths of love He has for us.

But the sin is ours not Jesus's. We need to be honest about it, and work through it, not ignore it, and say it belongs to someone else. That is called denial, projecting on to another bad behaviour that we ourselves do. In psychological terms this leads to the worst types of behaviour and disfunctional outlooks. Jesus calls us to own our sin, admit it and turn from it. It is humbling, difficult and painful. It deals with the excuses, the pain inflicted upon others and how we are guilty.
But in the end Jesus says, "I forgive you, sin no more."

 

[Grace777x70]

All grace-based believing speak of us repenting from our own way of life to believe in the finished work of Christ.

Ok....this will be the 11th time = believers turn to Jesus....trust in His work for us....His life empowers us to "go and sin no more "

As for repentance and confession, the Bible tells us that these words mean different things to different people. Repentance in the old covenant meant turning from sin but repentance in the new means turning to God. As the Pharisees showed, you can turn from sin until you’re dizzy but it won’t make you righteous. However, you cannot turn to God without leaving your old life behind.

The gospel is the power of God for salvation for everyone..in it the righteousness of God is revealed.

We embrace how the Holy Spirit reveals Christ to us!!! In His revealing of Jesus we see ourselves in Him and the by-product of that is that we are transformed by His life in us. It's beautiful!

There are 2 aspects to grace.

1) acceptance grace - which has nothing to do with our behavior - as seen with the woman caught in adultery. Our Lord beautifully says " I do not condemn you". It is in knowing you are not condemned that releases the other aspect of grace.

2) now, go and sin no more - this is empowering grace. Empowering grace enables you to be who the father sees you are in Christ now.


The religious mindset says to the woman caught in adultery - 'Do not sin and we will not condemn you." The grace of God speaks of better things!

Knowing that we are not condemned in Christ "releases" the life of the empowering grace to transform us. It's all about Christ! It's His fruit being manifested in us!

Acceptance grace which is not based on our behavior needs to be cemented in our hearts before empowering grace is able to be manifested.

Failure. The concept put forward here is the temple and the law failed. But they actually succeeded in demonstrating the problem of sin and the path to reconciliation. A few through faith found the place of intimacy with God, Moses, the prophets, David etc. but they were few, and what was demonstrated was confusion and failure to understand.

Jesus took all the violence, hatred, bitterness that people could throw at Him and forgave them unto death. The judge said if you follow me, I will not hold your sin against you. The key is to aim at holiness, empowered by the Spirit. But this is the inheritence of the law and the prophets not a new gospel. And the sin not held against us is sin done in ignorance, not will full. And the condition is on following.

Everything in hyper-grace sounds ok except not repenting of sin, changing the temple etc in failure and not a shadow, and making the gospel about compromise and not righteousness. The sin we do is our sin, and we need to understand it, in intimate detail, so we can overcome it, and be set free. Jesus carried the consequences of sin, death, and forgave us.
We are saved because we admit the sins commited against Jesus are our sins, so we are forgiven, or the punishment is not taken on us for them. Unless we follow then this is no longer true. We put Jesus to death, we need to drink His blood and eat His flesh, to know the depths of love He has for us.

But the sin is ours not Jesus's. We need to be honest about it, and work through it, not ignore it, and say it belongs to someone else. That is called denial, projecting on to another bad behaviour that we ourselves do. In psychological terms this leads to the worst types of behaviour and disfunctional outlooks. Jesus calls us to own our sin, admit it and turn from it. It is humbling, difficult and painful. It deals with the excuses, the pain inflicted upon others and how we are guilty.
But in the end Jesus says, "I forgive you, sin no more."

 

[james57]

The wisdom of God is right. No inconsistency.

You wrote:

Absolutely non christians have no power to say no to sin

I replied:

You believe Paul is speaking as a christian in rom 7:14-25

He said in those verses he was sold as a slave to sin. He could not do the good he wanted to do but rather the evil he did not want to do, what he hated to do he did.(in other words paul had no power to say no to sin)

You are all over the place here

You responded:

Every word Paul wrote was as a believer.

Contradiction on your part with no effort to repudiate it.

You stated:

''It is the mark of a christian that addiction to a life of sin I broken?''


I responded:

Yet you believe in rom 7:14-25 Paul is speaking of his christian life

Wisdom is always proved right by its inconsistencies

You responded:
The wisdom of God is right. No inconsistency.


No effort made to repudiate your contradiction


You wrote:
That is a complete untruth. Unbelievers have no power to say no to sin, where Christians have that ability...as did Paul.


I responded:

Absolutely non christians have no power to say no to sin

You believe Paul is speaking as a christian in rom 7:14-25

He said in those verses he was sold as a slave to sin. He could not do the good he wanted to do but rather the evil he did not want to do, what he hated to do he did.(in other words paul had no power to say no to sin)

You are all over the place here


You responded

Every word Paul wrote was as a believer.

No effort made to repudiate your contradiction

On top of that you refused to address the following:

As a Pharisee you believe Paul obeyed the law to the nth

As a christian you believe Paul could not do the good he wanted to do but rather the evil he did not want to do, what he hated to do he did
You also believe Paul the christian had all manner of concupiscence aroused in him by sin through the law. Sin grew/ got stronger in Paul the christian

According to your beliefs Paul the Pharisee sinned less than Paul the Christian''



As you can see, every time I addressed your points and showed your inconsistencies you failed to address them with your responses

 

[PeterJens]

All grace-based believing speak of us repenting from our own way of life to believe in the finished work of Christ.

All I can say is Junk.

Jesus and the 10 lepers who were healed.

Jesus asked, “Were not all ten cleansed? Where are the other nine? Has no one returned to give praise to God except this foreigner?” Then he said to him, “Rise and go; your faith has made you well.”
Luke 17:17-19

What you are suggesting is because people know they are worthy of judgement and it is not executed they will then walk in righteousness, even though they do not know what this is or how to attain it, it will just happen.

All I hear from the groups who follow this kind of teaching is worse sin and excess and a failure to understand anything to do with holiness. You reap what you sow.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

All I can say is Junk.

Jesus and the 10 lepers who were healed.

Jesus asked, “Were not all ten cleansed? Where are the other nine? Has no one returned to give praise to God except this foreigner?” Then he said to him, “Rise and go; your faith has made you well.”
Luke 17:17-19

What you are suggesting is because people know they are worthy of judgement and it is not executed they will then walk in righteousness, even though they do not know what this is or how to attain it, it will just happen.

All I hear from the groups who follow this kind of teaching is worse sin and excess and a failure to understand anything to do with holiness. You reap what you sow.

Thats fine,

all we hear from you is how holy and righteous and good you are, and how you are so glad you are not like the sinner.

We chose to be like the tax collector, not the pharisee. You can have your self righteousness, and watering down of Gods law to fool yourself into thinking how good you really are.

I will keep running the race, knowing I have yet to attain the perfection God requires of us all, and keep myself humbly at the throneroom of Grace. never forgetting where I came from.

 

[Grace777x70]

 

[Grace777x70]

Your definition of repentance will reveal whether you are living under grace or works. In the Old Testament, sinners repented by bringing a sacrifice of penance and confessing their sins (Num 5:7). But in the new we bring a sacrifice of praise and confess His name (Heb 13:15). We don’t do anything to deal with our sins for Jesus has done it all.

Our part is to change our mind, believe the good news, and say thank you Jesus! If that’s not practical enough for you, then start praising Jesus who died to free us from sin and whose grace empowers us to sin no more. See yourself as dead to sin and alive to Christ.


No matter how much I preach on grace, some people just can’t see the cross for their sins. They write to tell me I’m under-selling repentance. What they really mean is, “Paul you’re not telling people to turn from their sin.” In many churches this is exactly the message you will hear. “God is holy and He won’t accept you unless you turn from sin.” It’s sold as a “message of repentance” and it appeals to our sense of right and wrong but it’s utterly false.

It’s a lie from the pit of hell designed to promote the flesh and keep you from coming to Jesus. The truth is God is holy and He won’t accept you no matter what you do. His acceptance and favor come by grace alone. Got a sin-problem? Then come boldly to the throne of grace to receive mercy and find grace. His grace is your only hope.

 

[james57]

Your definition of repentance will reveal whether you are living under grace or works. In the Old Testament, sinners repented by bringing a sacrifice of penance and confessing their sins (Num 5:7). But in the new we bring a sacrifice of praise and confess His name (Heb 13:15). We don’t do anything to deal with our sins for Jesus has done it all.

Our part is to change our mind, believe the good news, and say thank you Jesus! If that’s not practical enough for you, then start praising Jesus who died to free us from sin and whose grace empowers us to sin no more. See yourself as dead to sin and alive to Christ.


No matter how much I preach on grace, some people just can’t see the cross for their sins. They write to tell me I’m under-selling repentance. What they really mean is, “Paul you’re not telling people to turn from their sin.” In many churches this is exactly the message you will hear. “God is holy and He won’t accept you unless you turn from sin.” It’s sold as a “message of repentance” and it appeals to our sense of right and wrong but it’s utterly false.

It’s a lie from the pit of hell designed to promote the flesh and keep you from coming to Jesus. The truth is God is holy and He won’t accept you no matter what you do. His acceptance and favor come by grace alone. Got a sin-problem? Then come boldly to the throne of grace to receive mercy and find grace. His grace is your only hope.

Pure grace as some authors preach
works, if you in your heart want to yield your life to Christ, truly in your heart live for him and put him first. The problem is, everyone is different. Different people in reality are prepared to yield varying amounts of their lives to Christ. We are not all the same in this regard are we. I am sure you would agree. Herein lies the problem.
Some who don't want to yield fully to Christ may inevitably abuse grace, at least to an extent.
For others who truly want in their hearts Christ to have first place, wonderful to know what some preachers will tell you, for you would never seek to abuse it.
I am not sure therefore if one set of preaching is beneficial for everyone. I am reminded of Spurgeons words as to two ministers preaching two very different types of sermons to different congregations. One on grace, one on the need for righteous living. He said they were both correct, for the ministers preached the sermons the congregations needed to hear.

 

[Grace777x70]

Yes ..very true.. James.....sadly some do abuse the gospel of the grace of Christ....but ..it is in fact..not grace...not them living under true grace....they are just using the "term" without understanding the gospel...

The person who says " God told me to go rob this bank"..is not under grace at all.
..or "The Spirit told me to divorce you"..is not under grace...there are a myriad of things where the truth of this falls under.

The solution is always to preach the gospel of the grace of Christ to them...for IN IT is the power of God for true salvation.

Pure grace as some authors preach
works, if you in your heart want to yield your life to Christ, truly in your heart live for him and put him first. The problem is, everyone is different. Different people in reality are prepared to yield varying amounts of their lives to Christ. We are not all the same in this regard are we. I am sure you would agree. Herein lies the problem.
Some who don't want to yield fully to Christ may inevitably abuse grace, at least to an extent.
For others who truly want in their hearts Christ to have first place, wonderful to know what some preachers will tell you, for you would never seek to abuse it.
I am not sure therefore if one set of preaching is beneficial for everyone. I am reminded of Spurgeons words as to two ministers preaching two very different types of sermons to different congregations. One on grace, one on the need for righteous living. He said they were both correct, for the ministers preached the sermons the congregations needed to hear.

 

[Euphemia]

I and most others by this time are really not interested in what you think, especially when you speak with such pride, as if you alone have some tidbit of knowledge that mo one else has. What you are on about is a fixation that is serving to hinder you and to keep you at odds with the Body of Christ.

This is what I grasp. Some people come onto the internet flushed with what they think they know. But it is all in their mind, their ego.
You haven't addressed anything put before you, just made contradictions
So all you can do is make pat statements and criticising me
I suppose you have to deflect somehow from your inability to address the points made

 

[james57]

I and most others by this time are really not interested in what you think, especially when you speak with such pride, as if you alone have some tidbit of knowledge that mo one else has. What you are on about is a fixation that is serving to hinder you and to keep you at odds with the Body of Christ.

Your problem is this. You refuse to address your glaring inconsistencies. While at the same time trying to give the impression of one most knowledgeable of the new covenant. It is not credible. If you were as knowledgeable as you think you are you would address the points I raised, but you are unable to.
I would not have a problem discussing sin consciousness with you, and affording you Tha opportunity. However debate must be two way and frankly you know you cannot defend your beliefs that I have questioned therefore you run from responding to them. If you started responding properly to questions asked, I would happily discuss sin consciousness with you.
Your rudeness I am afraid I simply a cover up for your inability to defend your beliefs, and may also be a result of your hyper grace

 

[Grace777x70]