Are we sinners?

[Cee]

This is an awesome post! The Scriptures that people use to show Paul was a man of sin are actually him identifying with all people so he might win more to Christ. I wrote extensively about Romans 7 in light of Romans 6-8 you might like it since it shows the heart behind what you say here...

C.

I just had to say:
I actually think that Paul was a man of great humility and he had the propensity to overstate his sin and who he was/used to be. Obviously,he was a man who sought to serve/please the Lord but he felt that he fell short . He simply voiced it quite often! Perhaps he had confidence issues ! After all,he was given quite a responsibility to carry out for the Most High! That statement was putting it lightly!! If you have ever had the opportunity to be a leader you will understand that leading in humility gains favor whereas leading in perceived self righteous pride has a tendency to turn people off. Paul had a history of killing christians before regeneration. Perhaps he never got over that and perhaps he over compensated because he never forgave himself as Christ had done!

Here are your verses requested:
How can our minds be continually renewed if we are not putting on a new nature? Its impossible to have a mind renewed and still think and do as we once did...

Ephesians 4:24


and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.



Colossians 3:10


and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him--


1 Corinthians 3:16


Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?


Ephesians 3:16


that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,


2 Corinthians 4:16


Therefore we do not lose heart, but though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day.


John 3:6


"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.



Ill add :Our flesh is constantly warring with the spirit. But I can see how fully surrendering to Christ has made me a different person. Of course,God is still molding me and cleaning up my mess. But, I can see what God has done with me. I dont even recognize the gal I used to be and for that I cannot even convey how grateful and thankful I am that he is continually changing me!! All to the honor,glory, and praise go to the Father! I am simply the lump of clay

 

[blondieindahouse]

This is an awesome post! The Scriptures that people use to show Paul was a man of sin are actually him identifying with all people so he might win more to Christ. I wrote extensively about Romans 7 in light of Romans 6-8 you might like it since it shows the heart behind what you say here...

C.

Id love to see it! Pm me or put up as a study?

 

[Cee]

In regard to if a man steals he is a thief... let's talk about this...

The Old Testament showed us the need for a Savior. Why? Because it told us what NOT to do. Here's the problem as soon as you read "Do Not Lie" you think, hmm, I must want to lie or else why would I be told not to do it? And then before you know it now you are lying by faith...

Okay so if someone steals something, do we still see them how Christ does or do we see them according to the flesh? Well, I'll say this the Biblical model is to see people as God does and that's IN CHRIST... if God didn't see us in Christ why would He put us in Him in the first place? But no, people have been taught to identify with their "flesh" (old man) more than with their "new man" so they do.

So the conversation becomes... you thief! You're just a sinner, you have try harder to not sin, or else you will be punished. And what happens to the guy who stole? He believes he is evil, he is a thief, and he has to TRY to be something different. And this is the whole problem with the OT. Doing something to be something. Why? Because the law didn't actually impart the ability follow it, what it's purpose was to show the need for a Savior and to reveal sin and lessen it to some degree so the world and the bloodline of Christ would not be overrun.

Okay so now, let's see things Biblically, hey buddy did you know you're not a thief? What do you mean I just stole something... I am a thief! And my parents have told me I was nothing and would amount to nothing and they were right! And those church people they don't understand me! All high and mighty, etc. etc. I'm sure you've heard these conversations before....? But we continue, I understand that's who they said you were, but the truth is you're not... you believe Christ right? Yeah, but I'm still a sinner... actually my friend you're not let me show you who you really are... do you see here in Eph 4... where it says as such WERE some of you? But you were washed, sanctified, justified, and in other passages it even says you were glorified. Has anyone taught you that? No. And then we begin to show him who he really is in Christ... this is renewing the mind...

Understanding this many Scriptures become more clear to us... for instance in 1 Co 14 it tells us if you are to desire any spiritual gifting it is prophesy... which is to build one another up... this is revealing the secrets of people's heart... they already know what's wrong with them... but what they don't know is what's right with them...

So what happens is people actually do holy things by faith because that's who they are... Instead of stealing and sinning by faith because that's who've they been told they are...

Matt 7:18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

Jesus set us free! We are now good trees that naturally bear good fruit. As our minds are renewed.

2 Co 5:16Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Eph 5:8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light.

The problem is the believers didn't know who they were, so the apostle had to continually explain to them who they were... this is actually the entire ministry of the 5 fold ministry and God's purpose for each person from the beginning, for those He foreknew He justified and glorified to be conformed into the image of His Son, the 5 fold ministry is for people to grow up in love (and light) so that they might walk in love and light. And reveal their Father to the world, as Christ has shown us.

Doing now comes from being. We don't do to be. We do because we now are. And it is not burdensome to us.

C.

 

[Cee]

Id love to see it! Pm me or put up as a study?

Paul says I persecuteD the church not I am persecuting the church. Past event. And in many of his letters he explains that he is now living for Christ. You can see in the Scriptures Romans 7 is talking about Christ saving you. It doesn't say anything about being a sinner as a Christian as an example for us. That's ridiculous.

Yet these Scriptures have been used to show people that they can't fight against sin, which is in DIRECT contrast to everything Paul wrote, except in regard to BEING SAVED not LIVING SAVED...

Let's break out Romans 7:

14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.


Who's under the Law? Jews. Okay so Paul says here that we are under bondage to sin, but earlier he said...

Romans 6:18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

Is Paul having amnesia?? Or maybe he's not referring to himself, but as himself before Christ! Let's find out!

24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Okay so now Paul calls himself wretched and not a saint, interesting. Who will set me free? Interesting, but Paul you're saved you've already been set free! Did you forget when you said this?

2 Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

And what do you mean you're serving the law of God? I thought you served the Spirit? What's going on here Paul!

Did you just say your FLESH is serving sin? Did you forget when you said this?

Romans 6:12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Paul must really be struggling because he tells us to not let sin reign in our body, nor to let our body serve sin, or to let sin master us! And that we are not under the law, but grace!

25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Hmm, I wonder if the NEXT VERSE will shed any light on this?

1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Anytime Scripture says therefore you gotta wonder what he said before it...

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Uh oh Paul is taking crazy again here 2 verses later saying I'm free from sin and death!

3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

Oh there's the Law again, and what it couldn't do, because of the flesh (that evil thing that has no good in it) God DID. What a minute did Paul just say DID and not doing or will do?

4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Whoa! It looks like he's explaining Romans 7 right here! And yes I see that not walking according to the flesh... We'll get there in a few verses...

5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

And here comes the big climax of Paul's argument. He says hey you can't please God in the flesh. So get out of the flesh people! And they are thinking how PAUL how do I get out of the flesh? Paul tells them how...

9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

You are NOT in the flesh, but in the Spirit. Your hostile mind? Oh yeah He gave you a new one....

1 Co 2:16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

C.

 

[eternallife7]

You mean this freedom? Galatians 5:13 For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

I'm sorry but when you mention scripture you must include anyone who goes beyond what is written does not have God. And when Hyper Grace teaches you do not have to follow Christ anymore, as beautiful as all the scripture sounds, they just don't apply to people who do not think you have to follow Christ's word. Whether they realize it or not they are under the law.

 

[Grace777x70]

Amen! I have been saying this very thing since I came to this site. It's in the understanding of who we are in Christ and the circumcision of the flesh and heart that is needed. We need to have the basic truth down that the "old man" is dead, dead, dead! Without knowing this we can't even identify with Christ's death let a lot with His being raised from the dead..with us with Him.

This type of teaching has helped me to cement some things of the spirit and soul and how these relate to the flesh and body.

Sometime when you are free..take a look at the video and let me know what you think..perhaps we could do it by the in house email system here..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi-oq5qBkWA

In regard to if a man steals he is a thief... let's talk about this...

The Old Testament showed us the need for a Savior. Why? Because it told us what NOT to do. Here's the problem as soon as you read "Do Not Lie" you think, hmm, I must want to lie or else why would I be told not to do it? And then before you know it now you are lying by faith...

Okay so if someone steals something, do we still see them how Christ does or do we see them according to the flesh? Well, I'll say this the Biblical model is to see people as God does and that's IN CHRIST... if God didn't see us in Christ why would He put us in Him in the first place? But no, people have been taught to identify with their "flesh" (old man) more than with their "new man" so they do.

So the conversation becomes... you thief! You're just a sinner, you have try harder to not sin, or else you will be punished. And what happens to the guy who stole? He believes he is evil, he is a thief, and he has to TRY to be something different. And this is the whole problem with the OT. Doing something to be something. Why? Because the law didn't actually impart the ability follow it, what it's purpose was to show the need for a Savior and to reveal sin and lessen it to some degree so the world and the bloodline of Christ would not be overrun.

Okay so now, let's see things Biblically, hey buddy did you know you're not a thief? What do you mean I just stole something... I am a thief! And my parents have told me I was nothing and would amount to nothing and they were right! And those church people they don't understand me! All high and mighty, etc. etc. I'm sure you've heard these conversations before....? But we continue, I understand that's who they said you were, but the truth is you're not... you believe Christ right? Yeah, but I'm still a sinner... actually my friend you're not let me show you who you really are... do you see here in Eph 4... where it says as such WERE some of you? But you were washed, sanctified, justified, and in other passages it even says you were glorified. Has anyone taught you that? No. And then we begin to show him who he really is in Christ... this is renewing the mind...

Understanding this many Scriptures become more clear to us... for instance in 1 Co 14 it tells us if you are to desire any spiritual gifting it is prophesy... which is to build one another up... this is revealing the secrets of people's heart... they already know what's wrong with them... but what they don't know is what's right with them...

So what happens is people actually do holy things by faith because that's who they are... Instead of stealing and sinning by faith because that's who've they been told they are...

Matt 7:18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

Jesus set us free! We are now good trees that naturally bear good fruit. As our minds are renewed.

2 Co 5:16Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. 17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.

Eph 5:8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light.

The problem is the believers didn't know who they were, so the apostle had to continually explain to them who they were... this is actually the entire ministry of the 5 fold ministry and God's purpose for each person from the beginning, for those He foreknew He justified and glorified to be conformed into the image of His Son, the 5 fold ministry is for people to grow up in love (and light) so that they might walk in love and light. And reveal their Father to the world, as Christ has shown us.

Doing now comes from being. We don't do to be. We do because we now are. And it is not burdensome to us.

C.

 

[ladylynn]

I'm sorry but when you mention scripture you must include anyone who goes beyond what is written does not have God. And when Hyper Grace teaches you do not have to follow Christ anymore, as beautiful as all the scripture sounds, they just don't apply to people who do not think you have to follow Christ's word. Whether they realize it or not they are under the law.

Did you even read the post???? No where / no how / did anyone say you do not follow Christ anymore. Good grief ....

As Charlie Brown's comic strip often shows..AAARRRRRGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Cee]

I'm sorry but when you mention scripture you must include anyone who goes beyond what is written does not have God. And when Hyper Grace teaches you do not have to follow Christ anymore, as beautiful as all the scripture sounds, they just don't apply to people who do not think you have to follow Christ's word. Whether they realize it or not they are under the law.

I'm sorry? Did you read the Scripture? It says we are free to love one another. And this is exactly what Christ's word tells us to do... so what are you talking about here?

John 13:34: A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.

Galatians 5:14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

14For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.17But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God 18and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; 19and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? 22You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law. 24For, as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”


If they are a believer in Christ it's impossible for them to be under the law, they died to it. And which law are you talking about the 10 commandments or the law written on their hearts? Because Gentiles are held accountable to the law on their hearts not the 10 commandments... and the 10 commandments are actually showing us what LOVE looks like... which is why Jesus fulfilled it, so please tell me where we disagree?

I in no way teach saints to sin, in fact I teach them a higher a level of holiness that comes from a cheerful obedient heart to desire the things of God. Grace empowers holiness.

C.

 

[kathryn]

Paul says I persecuteD the church not I am persecuting the church. Past event. And in many of his letters he explains that he is now living for Christ. You can see in the Scriptures Romans 7 is talking about Christ saving you. It doesn't say anything about being a sinner as a Christian as an example for us. That's ridiculous.

Yet these Scriptures have been used to show people that they can't fight against sin, which is in DIRECT contrast to everything Paul wrote, except in regard to BEING SAVED not LIVING SAVED...

Let's break out Romans 7:

14For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.


Who's under the Law? Jews. Okay so Paul says here that we are under bondage to sin, but earlier he said...

Romans 6:18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

Is Paul having amnesia?? Or maybe he's not referring to himself, but as himself before Christ! Let's find out!

24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Okay so now Paul calls himself wretched and not a saint, interesting. Who will set me free? Interesting, but Paul you're saved you've already been set free! Did you forget when you said this?

2 Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

And what do you mean you're serving the law of God? I thought you served the Spirit? What's going on here Paul!

Did you just say your FLESH is serving sin? Did you forget when you said this?

Romans 6:12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Paul must really be struggling because he tells us to not let sin reign in our body, nor to let our body serve sin, or to let sin master us! And that we are not under the law, but grace!

25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Hmm, I wonder if the NEXT VERSE will shed any light on this?

1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Anytime Scripture says therefore you gotta wonder what he said before it...

2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

Uh oh Paul is taking crazy again here 2 verses later saying I'm free from sin and death!

3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

Oh there's the Law again, and what it couldn't do, because of the flesh (that evil thing that has no good in it) God DID. What a minute did Paul just say DID and not doing or will do?

4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Whoa! It looks like he's explaining Romans 7 right here! And yes I see that not walking according to the flesh... We'll get there in a few verses...

5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

And here comes the big climax of Paul's argument. He says hey you can't please God in the flesh. So get out of the flesh people! And they are thinking how PAUL how do I get out of the flesh? Paul tells them how...

9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

You are NOT in the flesh, but in the Spirit. Your hostile mind? Oh yeah He gave you a new one....

1 Co 2:16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

C.

That's an awesome post. You explained it far better than I ever could
God bless brother

 

[Calmador]

Once a person is born into the family of God (indwelt by the Holy Spirit) should we still consider ourselves sinners?

Considering Christians true identity is Christ, Christians are not sinners from God's perspective. God will not let sinners into the kingdom of heaven. From what I've been taught, we're getting new bodies in heaven, perfect sinless bodies.

 

[kathryn]

Considering Christians true identity is Christ, Christians are not sinners from God's perspective. God will not let sinners into the kingdom of heaven. From what I've been taught, we're getting new bodies in heaven, perfect sinless bodies.

Yes, our earthly body cannot enter heaven, because:

For if Christ is in you your body is dead because of sin, but your spirit is alive because of righteousness rom8:10

I declare to you brothers, flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God 1cor15:50

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

No.

As He is so are we in this world. We are the righteousness of God. We are saints.

Here's an example: 1 Co 9Or do you not know that the unrighteous[SUP]b[/SUP] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,[SUP]c[/SUP] 10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And such WERE some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God

We are now washed, we are now sanctified, we are now justified, and actually we are glorified. Because Christ gave us the same glory that His Father gave Him so we might be one. This is why all of creation is waiting for us to realize who we are. Thinking we are still sinners is actually double mindedness that James tells us to repent from. It is living through 2 minds the natural and the mind of Christ. But the old man is dead. And we are new creations. Created in righteousness and holiness. As we accept this - the question will no longer be can I sin? But why would I want to? This is true repentance from the heart which comes from understanding God's goodness and kindness. And takes us from orphans/slaves into sons. By which we cry "Abba Father" no longer held with a spirit of slavery.

Most of Romans tells us over and over we are dead to sin. Let's just believe it. The passage in Romans 7 was written so Jews would understand their need for a Savior. Which is why Romans 8 starts with "therefore"...

C.

Hello cee, it's nice to meet you.
This is a thought I struggle with.

I see sin in myself, and so it is very hard - no, it is impossible - for me to say I am not a sinner, or that I am righteous.
I struggle with these verses.

I sometimes still get angry when someone hurts my feelings by being cold and callous and unthinking to me. I know this is pride and I know it is murder and self love. I pray and tell God I see these sins in me and I can say that when I admit them instead of trying to defend myself or " my rights" for respectful treatment, just the admitting and the agreeing with what He shows me about myself, somehow causes Him to do something odd in me and I begin to love and pray for the person. Then I seem to go longer periods of time before I get angry and murder again. I walk in the Spirit, depending on Him to fix me and I stop being depressed over my failure, but instead I say, this is just who I am and it will never be fixed apart from trusting in Him to fix it.

So I have come to understand that abiding in Him just means trusting in Him to do in me what He has said He will. The moment I think I can be good apart from constant trusting in Him, I murder again.

So I see the truth of what God says, that if I trust (abide) in Him, I don't sin. But I see that this abiding is not always continual. So my problem really seems to be in the area of continual trust.

I know the verses you bring up. I just can't admit to them because when I murder, I am not righteous, I am sinning.

I know that HE is righteous and that if I abide, I don't sin. I just don't always continually abide. Sometimes I fall back into thinking I can do it. I forget how poor I am and needy and dependant I am and forget that only He can do it. And only if I admit to what He shows me I've done.

I can't say I am righteous even when I do unrighteousness by my murdering, pride, self pity and self love. To me, that would be...holding the truth in unrighteousness. Or...saying I am unrighteously righteous...

So, that's my crazy problem.

 

[kathryn]

Hello cee, it's nice to meet you.
This is a thought I struggle with.

I see sin in myself, and so it is very hard - no, it is impossible - for me to say I am not a sinner, or that I am righteous.
I struggle with these verses.

I sometimes still get angry when someone hurts my feelings by being cold and callous and unthinking to me. I know this is pride and I know it is murder and self love. I pray and tell God I see these sins in me and I can say that when I admit them instead of trying to defend myself or " my rights" for respectful treatment, just the admitting and the agreeing with what He shows me about myself, somehow causes Him to do something odd in me and I begin to love and pray for the person. Then I seem to go longer periods of time before I get angry and murder again. I walk in the Spirit, depending on Him to fix me and I stop being depressed over my failure, but instead I say, this is just who I am and it will never be fixed apart from trusting in Him to fix it.

So I have come to understand that abiding in Him just means trusting in Him to do in me what He has said He will. The moment I think I can be good apart from constant trusting in Him, I murder again.

So I see the truth of what God says, that if I trust (abide) in Him, I don't sin. But I see that this abiding is not always continual. So my problem really seems to be in the area of continual trust.

I know the verses you bring up. I just can't admit to them because when I murder, I am not righteous, I am sinning.

I know that HE is righteous and that if I abide, I don't sin. I just don't always continually abide. Sometimes I fall back into thinking I can do it. I forget how poor I am and needy and dependant I am and forget that only He can do it. And only if I admit to what He shows me I've done.

I can't say I am righteous even when I do unrighteousness by my murdering, pride, self pity and self love. To me, that would be...holding the truth in unrighteousness. Or...saying I am unrighteously righteous...

So, that's my crazy problem.

Hi

I don't think you are the only one with what you call a crazy problem. It is so easy isn't it when we do not commit sin as you have described to be tempted to think we are righteous. And when we live by faith we see more overcoming of sin as you say. But then all of a sudden we fail in a certain way and then we question our righteousness.
So we question our righteousness when we are convicted we sin. We think it would be almost blasphemy, total hypocrisy to believe we are righteous when we sin dont we? But what are we really saying when we think that?
Well we are saying if i sin( break Gods laws) I cannot be righteous.
Yet Paul tells us we have a righteousness apart from the law( rom3:21&22) But although we can continually read that and convince ourselves we truly believe it, it is so hard to stand on it when crunch time comes isn't it?
We will never be perfect in the flesh while we walk this earth, and only if you could be would you be truly righteous before God by not committing sin. But from my own experience, crazy as it may sound, when I actually determine, will to believe i am righteous, even when i am convicted of sin, then sins grip over me in that area of my life weakens. As long as I measure my righteousness by whether I sin or not it does not weaken.
I guess for me it comes down to faith as you say. But are we willing to stand on faith what the bible states or on our own natural reasoning when we fail?

Logic is your worst enemy here in my opinion. Cee quoted earlier:
Sin will not be your master for you are not under law but under grace.

Some then take the view that if they sin they cannot be under grace, therefore they measure again their righteousness by whether they sin( obey Gods laws) That is their focus, not faith in Christ.
But I find when our focus is on Christ, not the expected results, then the results come.
Hope that makes a bit of sense, I'm not that well educated to write and explain my thoughts as well as I would like to
God bless

 

[PeterJens]

NAR, hyper-grace, walking in righteousness and not sin.

All the theology in the world comes to zero if one still is a slave to sin.
Claiming command authority also is meaningless if you do not have it.

It appears fundamentaly we disagree over the nature of the new man. The new man is a start again of a human, not another creature born into the mortal flesh, perfect, but flawed by failings in the human condition.

This theology believes with a new body all the sinful desires disappear, as if sin is linked only to the human condition and not our relationship with God.

Extending the concept of the new man, repentance is no longer necessary, or confession of sin or sanctification. You are already perfect, except for the flesh.

The concern of all sane christians is the schizophrenic concept of splitting the soul of a person into two and disowning ones own behaviour is very unhealthy, and not what the Lord is talking about.

When Paul is talking about being a new creation he means the whole person, not this split. When he talks about walking in righteousness it is as a whole individual.

The problem with the hyper-grace theology is with all groups that deny sin, it just runs rampent. The ideas cause denial.
Now if it is walking in the spirit, these congregations would be full of loving mature individuals living in victory, and the word would be spreading like wildfire. But this is not what is happening.

Where the church is growing is because of the wealth, prosperity promises based on sowing money into the ministries of the preacher, in the promise of getting back more oneself.

When people wake up that not addressing sin, or working through life issues fails, it just leads to damaged disappointed people who either leave the church or do not know why they fell for such a concept.

 

[PeterJens]

Taking ownership of sin

Sin is not a massive problem, it is within your grasp to conquer through Jesus. The law is given so that we might know the limitations of sin and the beginning of self condemnation.

Jesus is saying we sin because we do not believe God loves us, and we blame Him for all our problems. We justify our behaviour because of circumstance and the evil done against us. God is saying firstly what sin is and is not, and then secondly if you walk with Him you can gain victory through obedience as you discover the emotional reality of your heart and the wonder of communion with Him.

Jesus spoke of His disciples being clean because of the words spoken to them. The issue of salvation is relationship not a super-spiritual experience or a new nature being put within you. When Jesus says you must be born again, he is meaning start again rebuilding how you interact with others based on Gods love for you and repentance of your sinful behaviour.

It is plain that this is now being defined as religion, self work, justification beyond christs work on the cross.
The problem is there is no such thing as a new nature implanted in a believer, perfect and functioning, ready to be claimed. There are believers who have struggled with sin for many years who have had an emotional experience in the Lord, but that is not a new nature created. This is a new gnostic heresy, which fails as the believers struggle to make the model work only to discover it does not exist.

 

[PeterJens]

I see sin in myself, and so it is very hard - no, it is impossible - for me to say I am not a sinner, or that I am righteous.

Unfortunately sin is sin, and it makes us sinners. We are righteous when we repent and confess our sin to God and work to put things right.

In the temple when you discovered your guilt of sin, you went and found the appropriate offering and offered it up to God as a sacrifice. If it was stealing, you paid back the amount with 20% more on top.

But what Jesus is focusing on is our relationship, and getting a heart of love, so that we do not continue to walk in sin and justify ourselves. No sin is done when the motivation is not there. It is dealing with the impulses and things you make important in your life which dictate what leads to sin and what does not.

It is pure hypocracy to ignore sin and say I am righteous despite sin. We are forgiven if we seek repentance, else we are in rebellion against the Lord.

The concept is the walk matters more than the stumbling. Stumbling is a minor issue you deal with, but the major part is the relationship. Unfortunately it can take a lifetime to resolve these kind of issues, but that is why the walk is patient but hard.

What hyper-grace offers is merely hypocracy and easy believism. Once you just accept sin, you are a hypocrite, it is that simple.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Hi

I don't think you are the only one with what you call a crazy problem. It is so easy isn't it when we do not commit sin as you have described to be tempted to think we are righteous. And when we live by faith we see more overcoming of sin as you say. But then all of a sudden we fail in a certain way and then we question our righteousness.
So we question our righteousness when we are convicted we sin. We think it would be almost blasphemy, total hypocrisy to believe we are righteous when we sin dont we? But what are we really saying when we think that?
Well we are saying if i sin( break Gods laws) I cannot be righteous.
Yet Paul tells us we have a righteousness apart from the law( rom3:21&22) But although we can continually read that and convince ourselves we truly believe it, it is so hard to stand on it when crunch time comes isn't it?
We will never be perfect in the flesh while we walk this earth, and only if you could be would you be truly righteous before God by not committing sin. But from my own experience, crazy as it may sound, when I actually determine, will to believe i am righteous, even when i am convicted of sin, then sins grip over me in that area of my life weakens. As long as I measure my righteousness by whether I sin or not it does not weaken.
I guess for me it comes down to faith as you say. But are we willing to stand on faith what the bible states or on our own natural reasoning when we fail?

Logic is your worst enemy here in my opinion. Cee quoted earlier:
Sin will not be your master for you are not under law but under grace.

Some then take the view that if they sin they cannot be under grace, therefore they measure again their righteousness by whether they sin( obey Gods laws) That is their focus, not faith in Christ.
But I find when our focus is on Christ, not the expected results, then the results come.
Hope that makes a bit of sense, I'm not that well educated to write and explain my thoughts as well as I would like to
God bless

I think this is what I have said too...when I try to "be good" it all falls apart and I am focused on my sin and myself. When I realize I can never be good, I just admit to what I am, leave the fixing to Him, and I let go of it and focus on what HE can and will do.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Hi

I don't think you are the only one with what you call a crazy problem. It is so easy isn't it when we do not commit sin as you have described to be tempted to think we are righteous. And when we live by faith we see more overcoming of sin as you say. But then all of a sudden we fail in a certain way and then we question our righteousness.
So we question our righteousness when we are convicted we sin. We think it would be almost blasphemy, total hypocrisy to believe we are righteous when we sin dont we? But what are we really saying when we think that?
Well we are saying if i sin( break Gods laws) I cannot be righteous.
Yet Paul tells us we have a righteousness apart from the law( rom3:21&22) But although we can continually read that and convince ourselves we truly believe it, it is so hard to stand on it when crunch time comes isn't it?
We will never be perfect in the flesh while we walk this earth, and only if you could be would you be truly righteous before God by not committing sin. But from my own experience, crazy as it may sound, when I actually determine, will to believe i am righteous, even when i am convicted of sin, then sins grip over me in that area of my life weakens. As long as I measure my righteousness by whether I sin or not it does not weaken.
I guess for me it comes down to faith as you say. But are we willing to stand on faith what the bible states or on our own natural reasoning when we fail?

Logic is your worst enemy here in my opinion. Cee quoted earlier:
Sin will not be your master for you are not under law but under grace.

Some then take the view that if they sin they cannot be under grace, therefore they measure again their righteousness by whether they sin( obey Gods laws) That is their focus, not faith in Christ.
But I find when our focus is on Christ, not the expected results, then the results come.
Hope that makes a bit of sense, I'm not that well educated to write and explain my thoughts as well as I would like to
God bless

I don't think I am no longer under grace when I sin. Only by grace could I walk longer times without murdering.. Since this is His doing and not mine, it is quite apparent that I am still under grace!

 

[kathryn]

I think this is what I have said too...when I try to "be good" it all falls apart and I am focused on my sin and myself. When I realize I can never be good, I just admit to what I am, leave the fixing to Him, and I let go of it and focus on what HE can and will do.

Yes, he will do a far better job of fixing us than we could ever do ourselves won't he. That's why Paul impressed that is was through the Holy Spirit victory over sin comes as we trust Jesus, it is not of ourselves but of him in us

 

[Cee]

Hi Stunned!

It's an honor to meet you as well. First off thank you for being so honest and vulnerable. It really shows your heart to seek truth. Which is exactly what Jesus said His Father was searching for those who would worship Him in Spirit and in Truth. I just want you to know, that you're going to be okay God has totally got you. In fact, I feel like the Spirit is saying to you to focus on where you have come from not where you're not. You see religion focuses on perfection, but the Kingdom of God focuses on progress. Even Paul said I have not yet made it, but I press on for the UPWARD call of Christ. Everywhere you see "perfection" in the NT it's actually completion or maturity. You are growing in your maturity. I am willing to bet there are some very real reasons why you do what you do. One of the biggest issues we face is self protection and shame. These 2 things cause us to react when people hurt us. And it's perfectly understandable. Because if we do not understand who God is for us and get our identity from Him, we will get it from the world. Once you know that God approves of you and accepts you in Christ, suddenly you are no longer needing to get it from the world, but instead you can give it away. This is so important that Christ was told He was loved, accepted, and pleasing to the Father before His ministry began.

Matt 3:16After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, 17and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased."

Scripture says that the Spirit of God is your Teacher. He is the one who will teach you who you now are in Christ. For instance, if you have trouble seeing yourself as righteous. Ask Him why or even ask Him to make it life for you. I will also pray for you.

Father I thank You that You love Stunned so much, I ask Father God that Your Spirit give her peace and that she would know Your love that exceeds all knowledge. Show her how acceptable and pleasing she is to you. May she be baptized in Your love just as Your Son Jesus was, In Jesus Name, Amen.

Once you know His love then you can begin to give it to the world around you. They seek after these things, but they do it through things of the world because this is how they've been taught. But Stunned as you learn to receive from your Father you will be able to give them the love and acceptance that they seek. And as they see the Father in you, they will see that they need Him.

I can tell you of the many years I have struggled to know my own identity. But God is faithful. Thank Him for the work He has done in your life already, write out a list of what He has formed in you, and praise Him! And as you feel thanksgiving well up, you'll also feel faith for what He will do in the future. Remember Scripture says it is the God of Hope who crushes Satan. It is the seedbed of faith. So keep your hope fixed on Him and the promises He has already released into your life. I hope this blesses and encourages you.

Bless you,

C.

Hello cee, it's nice to meet you.
This is a thought I struggle with.

I see sin in myself, and so it is very hard - no, it is impossible - for me to say I am not a sinner, or that I am righteous.
I struggle with these verses.

I sometimes still get angry when someone hurts my feelings by being cold and callous and unthinking to me. I know this is pride and I know it is murder and self love. I pray and tell God I see these sins in me and I can say that when I admit them instead of trying to defend myself or " my rights" for respectful treatment, just the admitting and the agreeing with what He shows me about myself, somehow causes Him to do something odd in me and I begin to love and pray for the person. Then I seem to go longer periods of time before I get angry and murder again. I walk in the Spirit, depending on Him to fix me and I stop being depressed over my failure, but instead I say, this is just who I am and it will never be fixed apart from trusting in Him to fix it.

So I have come to understand that abiding in Him just means trusting in Him to do in me what He has said He will. The moment I think I can be good apart from constant trusting in Him, I murder again.

So I see the truth of what God says, that if I trust (abide) in Him, I don't sin. But I see that this abiding is not always continual. So my problem really seems to be in the area of continual trust.

I know the verses you bring up. I just can't admit to them because when I murder, I am not righteous, I am sinning.

I know that HE is righteous and that if I abide, I don't sin. I just don't always continually abide. Sometimes I fall back into thinking I can do it. I forget how poor I am and needy and dependant I am and forget that only He can do it. And only if I admit to what He shows me I've done.

I can't say I am righteous even when I do unrighteousness by my murdering, pride, self pity and self love. To me, that would be...holding the truth in unrighteousness. Or...saying I am unrighteously righteous...

So, that's my crazy problem.