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I am not trying to separate them, but that's the way it sometimes works. Believing with the heart is a personal thing and speaking out is a physical thing. The physical cannot be performed before the heart is set. When a believer can bring another to belief, the new believer might say right away they believe and be confessing with his/her mouth and be saved. If it occurs in private study then the excitement would most likely cause an immediate profession of faith to someone. Nit-picking over the order of belief and faith is pointless as both will be done if both are real.
Jesus went into the depths of hell, then rose into the heavens. I don't think 6 feet of dirt is going to slow Him down any when he gathers the saints.
I'd share what I believe, but I don't think your 2 dimensional head will wrap around it, and failing that, you'll just start taking pot shots at it. I mean, if the BDF proves anything it's that the easiest way to deal with something you can't understand is to mock and attack it.
I'd share what I believe, but I don't think your 2 dimensional head will wrap around it, and failing that, you'll just start taking pot shots at it. I mean, if the BDF proves anything it's that the easiest way to deal with something you can't understand is to mock and attack it.
First off, there are going to be very very few alive for Christ to catch up to Himself. Remember, this happens after the beast makes war with and overcomes the saints during the time of tribulation judgment... AND the falling away of many from the faith during that time. People envision the "rapture" (a misnomer) as involving huge swaths of the populace - but in reality it will involve only the remainder of the overcome but persevering saints.
Secondly, we need to understand how time and eternity interact. Most people think time is linear - there’s eternity at one end, then a time line, then eternity at the other end. Perhaps this may look familiar:
eternity)---time---(eternity
But that image is wrong. What we need to picture is a wheel. A wheel has a hub and a rim. Imagine God and eternity existing in the hub, and time running along the rim. With this image in mind we can see how, like randomly inserted spokes, God can reach out and touch any point in time, at any point in time.
How may this apply to us? Think about it. The day you are born, God enters the world and walks beside you every single step of your life until you die… and then He takes you home. Having spent your whole life with you, then retreating back into the hub with you, from there God enters the world again when the person sitting next to you is born. He spends that person’s entire life with them, until He brings them home. Then He re-enters time again, maybe reaching into time the day King David was born. God spends David’s entire life with him, then brings him home. And so on for every single one of us. That is how God is able to be with all of us, all of the time, all at the same time. Because the time constraints we live under don't apply to Him. And that is the point to take away from all that - the time constraints we live under don't apply to God.
Now, on this mortal coil we leave it one at a time (usually) with the dead of course preceding the living in their departure. But in the heavens, we all arrive at the same time - when Jesus catches us up to be with Him in the heavens, the 'dead' and the living. The souls of the dead, who preceded us in human time, are reunited with their bodies (which did the dirt nap in human time), in the same twinkling of an eye that the very very few surviving believers are.
People argue the timing of the rapture, but really, as Jesus told the arrogant farmer, your rapture could be tonight. That heart attack, that car crash, that your-ticket-is-punched moment, that's your rapture and resurrection moment. Today, you will be with Me in paradise... it may seem like longer to us, but to God it's all happening in less than a millisecond of eternity.
That's why, 6 feet of dirt means nothing.
Apologies for the tangent.
Secondly, we need to understand how time and eternity interact. Most people think time is linear - there’s eternity at one end, then a time line, then eternity at the other end. Perhaps this may look familiar:
eternity)---time---(eternity
But that image is wrong. What we need to picture is a wheel. A wheel has a hub and a rim. Imagine God and eternity existing in the hub, and time running along the rim. With this image in mind we can see how, like randomly inserted spokes, God can reach out and touch any point in time, at any point in time.
How may this apply to us? Think about it. The day you are born, God enters the world and walks beside you every single step of your life until you die… and then He takes you home. Having spent your whole life with you, then retreating back into the hub with you, from there God enters the world again when the person sitting next to you is born. He spends that person’s entire life with them, until He brings them home. Then He re-enters time again, maybe reaching into time the day King David was born. God spends David’s entire life with him, then brings him home. And so on for every single one of us. That is how God is able to be with all of us, all of the time, all at the same time. Because the time constraints we live under don't apply to Him. And that is the point to take away from all that - the time constraints we live under don't apply to God.
Now, on this mortal coil we leave it one at a time (usually) with the dead of course preceding the living in their departure. But in the heavens, we all arrive at the same time - when Jesus catches us up to be with Him in the heavens, the 'dead' and the living. The souls of the dead, who preceded us in human time, are reunited with their bodies (which did the dirt nap in human time), in the same twinkling of an eye that the very very few surviving believers are.
People argue the timing of the rapture, but really, as Jesus told the arrogant farmer, your rapture could be tonight. That heart attack, that car crash, that your-ticket-is-punched moment, that's your rapture and resurrection moment. Today, you will be with Me in paradise... it may seem like longer to us, but to God it's all happening in less than a millisecond of eternity.
That's why, 6 feet of dirt means nothing.
Apologies for the tangent.
Its my understanding that OSAS simply requires belief (John 3 :16), and that's my objection to it. Glad to hear you don't oppose repentance. "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble" (James 2:19).
"Adolf Hitler professed faith in Jesus Christ and claimed to be a Christian. He affirmed the Christian faith, never shut down a Christian church, and claimed that his actions during World War II were fully consistent with Biblical teaching and commandments. Google some of his speeches and you'll notice he regularly invoked the name of "God" and "Lord", he regularly called upon "faith in the Almighty", and he regularly stated the importance of the Christian faith as a foundation for the entire nation."
My point being that if someone claims to believe, OSAS assures that's all that's necessary. Of course, I personally don't believe for a moment that ole Adolf was a Christian, but according to some advocates of OSAS, saying "I believe" is all that's required, so Hitler met their criteria.
"Adolf Hitler professed faith in Jesus Christ and claimed to be a Christian. He affirmed the Christian faith, never shut down a Christian church, and claimed that his actions during World War II were fully consistent with Biblical teaching and commandments. Google some of his speeches and you'll notice he regularly invoked the name of "God" and "Lord", he regularly called upon "faith in the Almighty", and he regularly stated the importance of the Christian faith as a foundation for the entire nation."
My point being that if someone claims to believe, OSAS assures that's all that's necessary. Of course, I personally don't believe for a moment that ole Adolf was a Christian, but according to some advocates of OSAS, saying "I believe" is all that's required, so Hitler met their criteria.
Hitler was a pragmatist, not a Christian.
Religious views of Adolph Hitler
I noticed you said his Christian walk "seemed" to be very much like yours, very devoted and committed (or so it seemed). You can also have a lot of head knowledge about the Bible and even act like a Christian without truly being born again. People that I talked with who claimed to have renounced their faith described themselves as previously having a Christian walk and were at one time very devoted and committed as well, *yet when I pressed them to explain to me how they became a Christian and what it means to be saved through faith, they could not give me a sufficient answer.* I'm sure that Judas Iscariot looked like the real deal to the rest of the disciples, yet Jesus knew his heart and referred to him as an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Him (John 13:10-11; John 6:64-71). People can sound very convincing, yet not truly be the real deal. We must be discerning and not gullible.
Saying that such persons like this were never saved in the first place is not pointless at all and does not contradict the parable of the sower of seed. Are you sure that in two cases, the seed takes root and grows? Luke 8:13 - But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. The shallow ground hearer is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was "not good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. People who hear and receive the word with joy (emotional response) and believe (in a shallow way) without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" do not experience real salvation. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root.." Problem from the start. Temporary shallow belief that was not firmly rooted or established from the start "has no root" represents rocky soil. Then we see the results of this. Temporary shallow belief that has no root, lacks moisture, produces no fruit and withers away is not saving belief.
John has portrayed people as "believing" who are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31,40,45-46 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin [v. 34], indifferent to Jesus’ word [v. 37], children of the devil [v. 44], liars [v. 55], and guilty of setting out to stone the one they have professed to believe in (v. 59). After Jesus’ teaching we read in 6:60 that "many of his disciples . . . said," ‘This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?’ These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe" (John 6:64). They also walked with Him no more. They did not continue. If we continue in His word, then we demonstrate that we are TRULY His disciples (John 8:31). Those who fail to continue in His word demonstrate that they are NOT TRULY His disciples.
In regards to the thorny soil, the word was choked out before reaching it's desired goal, making it [unfruitful]. The word is choked and therefore does not produce a renewed spiritual life in the person; "the anxieties of the age and the pleasures of wealth chokes the message. The worries of life and the delusions of wealth have the effect of stifling the word/gospel, such that the person does not bear the fruit of salvation. Neither the stony ground hearer or the thorny ground hearer was fruitful. Put a stop to the growth of the word and it gives no fruit (Bible in Basic English). The potential to eventually become established and produce fruit was there, but the word was choked out before reaching it's desired goal. It (the seed, the word) became unfruitful (produces nothing, proves unfruitful, does not produce fruit, yields nothing), because the growth of the word was choked. In the Complete Jewish Bible we read, Now the seed sown among thorns stands for someone who hears the message, but it is choked by the worries of the world and the deceitful glamor of wealth, so that it produces nothing. Nothing amounts to nothing and nothing was mentioned about it ever producing something. In both cases, faith without works is dead.
In CONTRAST, we read in Matthew 13:23 - "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who INDEED BEARS FRUIT and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty." *Only the 4th soil produced crops of any size.* I suppose the question still remains, "can this forth soil eventually become fruitless?" I have to conclude that if this were possible, why didn't Christ include such a scenario before concluding? There is mention of a difference in the size of the crops, but no consequences or warnings are given to the lesser producers. Only the 4th soil was referred to as "good ground" and produced a crop (fruit) and there is NO MENTION OF CHOKING OR WITHERING THEREAFTER.
Saying that such persons like this were never saved in the first place is not pointless at all and does not contradict the parable of the sower of seed. Are you sure that in two cases, the seed takes root and grows? Luke 8:13 - But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. The shallow ground hearer is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was "not good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. People who hear and receive the word with joy (emotional response) and believe (in a shallow way) without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" do not experience real salvation. But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root.." Problem from the start. Temporary shallow belief that was not firmly rooted or established from the start "has no root" represents rocky soil. Then we see the results of this. Temporary shallow belief that has no root, lacks moisture, produces no fruit and withers away is not saving belief.
John has portrayed people as "believing" who are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31,40,45-46 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin [v. 34], indifferent to Jesus’ word [v. 37], children of the devil [v. 44], liars [v. 55], and guilty of setting out to stone the one they have professed to believe in (v. 59). After Jesus’ teaching we read in 6:60 that "many of his disciples . . . said," ‘This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?’ These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe" (John 6:64). They also walked with Him no more. They did not continue. If we continue in His word, then we demonstrate that we are TRULY His disciples (John 8:31). Those who fail to continue in His word demonstrate that they are NOT TRULY His disciples.
In regards to the thorny soil, the word was choked out before reaching it's desired goal, making it [unfruitful]. The word is choked and therefore does not produce a renewed spiritual life in the person; "the anxieties of the age and the pleasures of wealth chokes the message. The worries of life and the delusions of wealth have the effect of stifling the word/gospel, such that the person does not bear the fruit of salvation. Neither the stony ground hearer or the thorny ground hearer was fruitful. Put a stop to the growth of the word and it gives no fruit (Bible in Basic English). The potential to eventually become established and produce fruit was there, but the word was choked out before reaching it's desired goal. It (the seed, the word) became unfruitful (produces nothing, proves unfruitful, does not produce fruit, yields nothing), because the growth of the word was choked. In the Complete Jewish Bible we read, Now the seed sown among thorns stands for someone who hears the message, but it is choked by the worries of the world and the deceitful glamor of wealth, so that it produces nothing. Nothing amounts to nothing and nothing was mentioned about it ever producing something. In both cases, faith without works is dead.
In CONTRAST, we read in Matthew 13:23 - "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who INDEED BEARS FRUIT and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty." *Only the 4th soil produced crops of any size.* I suppose the question still remains, "can this forth soil eventually become fruitless?" I have to conclude that if this were possible, why didn't Christ include such a scenario before concluding? There is mention of a difference in the size of the crops, but no consequences or warnings are given to the lesser producers. Only the 4th soil was referred to as "good ground" and produced a crop (fruit) and there is NO MENTION OF CHOKING OR WITHERING THEREAFTER.
Who are you to assume and try to make distinctions about who is and who isn't born again? Scripture makes clear that all who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ and are sons of GOD.
So it's not a question of whose faith was real or not when they first believed and were born again, but whose faith remained alive to produce fruits worthy of repentance. Many were saved out of Egypt, who were later destroyed because of their unbelief. They had faith in the blood to be saved (out of Egypt), but not the faith to enter into rest (in the promised land).
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for as many [of you] as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Galatians 3:26-27
So it's not a question of whose faith was real or not when they first believed and were born again, but whose faith remained alive to produce fruits worthy of repentance. Many were saved out of Egypt, who were later destroyed because of their unbelief. They had faith in the blood to be saved (out of Egypt), but not the faith to enter into rest (in the promised land).
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I could ask you the same question. 
Saved out of Egypt means they were delivered (saved out of Egypt). It doesn't mean they were all saved by grace through faith. The Lord delivered His people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe (Jude 1:5). Nothing is mentioned here about them previously believing and being saved, but now they stopped believing and are no longer saved, but lost.
Notice in Hebrews 4:1 - Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest..
True, as long as you are not teaching that we are water baptized into the body of Christ and become sons of God by water baptism, rather than by faith.
Only faith that produces fruits worthy of repentance (as we saw with the seed that fell on GOOD SOIL and produced a crop of multiple sizes demonstrates that it's alive. Faith without works is dead.
Saved out of Egypt means they were delivered (saved out of Egypt). It doesn't mean they were all saved by grace through faith. The Lord delivered His people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe (Jude 1:5). Nothing is mentioned here about them previously believing and being saved, but now they stopped believing and are no longer saved, but lost.
Notice in Hebrews 4:1 - Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest..
Show me which verse in the Bible says the seed on shallow soil "takes root?" I will show you otherwise.
Matthew 13:6 - But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away.
Matthew 13:21 - yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Mark 4:6 - But when the sun was up it was scorched, and because it had no root it withered away.
Mark 4:17 - and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word's sake, immediately they stumble.
Luke 8:13 -But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
The Bible does not say has no "deep" root, but has NO ROOT.
Again, temporary shallow belief that has no root, lacks moisture, produces no fruit and withers away is not saving belief. If it's a faith nonetheless, then WHERE IS THE FRUIT? FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.
Matthew 13:6 - But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away.
Matthew 13:21 - yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
Mark 4:6 - But when the sun was up it was scorched, and because it had no root it withered away.
Mark 4:17 - and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word's sake, immediately they stumble.
Luke 8:13 -But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.
The Bible does not say has no "deep" root, but has NO ROOT.
Again, temporary shallow belief that has no root, lacks moisture, produces no fruit and withers away is not saving belief. If it's a faith nonetheless, then WHERE IS THE FRUIT? FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD.
You left out all the facts. Believed (in a shallow way) and received the word with joy (emotional response) does not mean they were saved. Please read post #450 again.
Only the good ground hearer persevered because the seed fell on good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, (properly prepared in heart) and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance. The other did not persevere because the seed fell on shallow rocky soil, lacked moisture and had no root, (not properly prepared in heart) so of course a lack of perseverance was inevitable. It's obvious what the cause and effect are. The condition of the soil preceded the results.
We have every reason to believe that this wasn't real, saving belief for the shallow ground hearers. Even though this shallow ground hearer is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." His heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth, no root. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who superficially "believe" and rejoice at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and having "no root", do not experience real salvation.
Persecutions test our faith and demonstrate whether it is genuine saving faith or not. Genuine faith perseveres and shallow temporary belief and choked out belief that produces NO FRUIT and does not persevere demonstrates otherwise.
Only the good ground hearer persevered because the seed fell on good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, (properly prepared in heart) and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance. The other did not persevere because the seed fell on shallow rocky soil, lacked moisture and had no root, (not properly prepared in heart) so of course a lack of perseverance was inevitable. It's obvious what the cause and effect are. The condition of the soil preceded the results.
We have every reason to believe that this wasn't real, saving belief for the shallow ground hearers. Even though this shallow ground hearer is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." His heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth, no root. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who superficially "believe" and rejoice at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and having "no root", do not experience real salvation.
Persecutions test our faith and demonstrate whether it is genuine saving faith or not. Genuine faith perseveres and shallow temporary belief and choked out belief that produces NO FRUIT and does not persevere demonstrates otherwise.
Dont forget the third example in the parable. The people became believers, but they kept getting distracted from the path by the cares of this world. Notice Jesus says because of this they did not mature in the faith, it doesn't say they ceased to be believers. For you only mature by persevering in following after the holy spirit.
Many today do not mature because of this but remain babes in the faith. However, in the second example if we accept the words of Christ the people became believers.
Many today do not mature because of this but remain babes in the faith. However, in the second example if we accept the words of Christ the people became believers.
Seeds can't wither through lack of moisture; nor can they 'come up' unless they sprout. If a seed sprouts, it is a plant with a root. A root is the first thing a seed produces. The parable makes clear that the plant became alive and survived for a while, then withered and died.
And other [seed] fell on the rock, and [when it] came up, it withered, because it did not have moisture. Luke 8:6
And other [seed] fell on the rock, and [when it] came up, it withered, because it did not have moisture. Luke 8:6
The moment you become a christian it should be a wonderful experience. Jesus died for your sins, no guilt or condemnation. At that moment you have joy and peace such as you have never previously known.
But this euphoric state does not last as such as it is. You then set out on the Christian path, you are called to deny yourself, take up your cross and follow after Christ. Trials and temptations come to you on the path and some give up and walk away because of them.
But in order to get to that stage you must have become a believer in the first place. God takes you at your word the day you got saved, he accepts you as his child
But this euphoric state does not last as such as it is. You then set out on the Christian path, you are called to deny yourself, take up your cross and follow after Christ. Trials and temptations come to you on the path and some give up and walk away because of them.
But in order to get to that stage you must have become a believer in the first place. God takes you at your word the day you got saved, he accepts you as his child