Are we sinners?

[FreeNChrist]

Not with folks who follow the Modern/New/Hyper Grace delusion. Focus is on self because they believe they are the righteousness of GOD in Christ. Bible doesn't say that anywhere. Christ alone is the righteousness of GOD.

LOL. Still ALL Ears I see......

 

[FreeNChrist]

You imbalance Grace with a form of Quietism. Just 'reckon' and all is done for you.

Well, I don't "balance" Grace, I am asking you what you think it should be balanced with.

 

[ladylynn]

If the flesh has been put to death, how come we are told to put it to death?

We do what we do and believe what we believe based on 'faith' We recon ourselves dead and our life hid in Christ. By faith we agree with what God's word says. We are told to believe and IN THAT BELIEF IS HOW WE PUT OUR FLESH TO DEATH. If you give it life by trusting in IT you give it power., We are called to INSTEAD believe in what Christ has already done. so, recon it DONE BY FAITH. THAT IS HOW YOU PUT IT TO DEATH.

 

[Grace777x70]

Romans 10:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.


Ephesians 4:24 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

Philippians 3:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

2 Corinthians 6:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,

Hebrews 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.

Brethren we need to grow up in the knowledge of Christ our Lord and walk in His righteousness!

 

[Gr8grace]

That's a good question and long overdue. It might be better to know what it isn't. It's not an old man, old self, old nature, sin-nature, self-nature, Adam-nature, human nature, a murderer or a boogeyman. What it is, the flesh (sarx), as it is used in reference to our behavior is those patterns of selfish and sinful action and reaction within our desires.

I agree. And honestly I don't see why it would confuse people or be dishonest to call the flesh the sin nature. Is there something I am overlooking here?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Sin is overcome, not your master by living under grace, not law. You can only sin in your flesh
It is a puzzle to me, but a few who believe only they understand true grace keep impressing in the flesh christians are always a slave to sin, sin is therefore their master.
That oppose Paul's message of grace

That is exactly it. They do not know or understand the power of the spirit to overcome sin in the flesh through faith, so they simply deny that the flesh (old man) even exists, and walk in the imagination of their minds (that they are the righteousness of GOD in Christ).

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

We are not schizophrenic Christians with 2 natures...that is ridiculous...that's like saying we are a man and a woman at the same time...

We are in the flesh...but the flesh is not the real us..the body is our earth suit if you will...the body itself is not evil..it's the flesh that is in it that also has the power of sin in it....and this "sin" in our flesh will remain until we die physically .

If we don not understand our true identity in Christ..our whole Christian walk will be stunned. We will remain baby Christians no matter how much "bible knowledge " we have....

But if people want to think they have multiple identities.....then go for it....but we will never grow up in Him by believing gin this way.

No, it's saying we are earthly and heavenly beings at the same time. Obey the earthly nature, you die; obey the heavenly nature, you live.

 

[crossnote]

We are not schizophrenic Christians with 2 natures...that is ridiculous...that's like saying we are a man and a woman at the same time...

We are in the flesh...but the flesh is not the real us..the body is our earth suit if you will...the body itself is not evil..it's the flesh that is in it that also has the power of sin in it....and this "sin" in our flesh will remain until we die physically .

If we don not understand our true identity in Christ..our whole Christian walk will be stunned. We will remain baby Christians no matter how much "bible knowledge " we have....

But if people want to think they have multiple identities.....then go for it....but we will never grow up in Him by believing gin this way.

Satan appeals to us to live according to our flesh. To put trust in our own strength, wisdom etc., to lure us away from fully trusting the Lord.
The former is living after the flesh, the latter is after the Spirit.
To try and divide the two by substance is a near impossible task.

 

[tourist]

Once a person is born into the family of God (indwelt by the Holy Spirit) should we still consider ourselves sinners?

Recovering sinners may be the more appropriate term.

 

[ladylynn]

We achieve the victory (overcome) over sin by focusing on what Christ has done for us, not by focusing on our selves. His blood is what saves us, not our identity.

Focusing on what Christ has done IS what I said. He said there is therefor now NO condemnation to them who are IN Christ Jesus. You are dead and your life is now hid in Christ. Focusing on the finished work of Jesus and identifying ourselves by HIS opinion of us and NOT ours.

He who has the Son has life, he who has not the Son of God has not life... Not sure why you are confusing the issue with saying the same thing but denying it at the same time. ?? What is your point??

 

[Gr8grace]

We do what we do and believe what we believe based on 'faith' We recon ourselves dead and our life hid in Christ. By faith we agree with what God's word says. We are told to believe and IN THAT BELIEF IS HOW WE PUT OUR FLESH TO DEATH. If you give it life by trusting in IT you give it power., We are called to INSTEAD believe in what Christ has already done. so, recon it DONE BY FAITH. THAT IS HOW YOU PUT IT TO DEATH.

I agree ladylynn. But for me personally..............easier said than done. but it is the goal. I have to go to 1 John 1:9 quite often still.

 

[Grace777x70]

Guys..basic beliefs in that we ( our old man ) died with Christ.....look at what we are dealing with here...this is messed up theology concerning Christ and us dying on the cross with Him.

Romans 6:5-6 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
[SUP]6 [/SUP] knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

2 Timothy 2:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;

Galatians 2:20 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

If we don't see the "old man/self" as dead..then our whole theology concerning the new man will be off....the new creation in Christ will be foolishness to us.

That is exactly it. They do not know or understand the power of the spirit to overcome sin in the flesh through faith, so they simply deny that the flesh (old man) even exists, and walk in the imagination of their minds (that they are the righteousness of GOD in Christ).

 

[FreeNChrist]

I agree. And honestly I don't see why it would confuse people or be dishonest to call the flesh the sin nature. Is there something I am overlooking here?

Because Christians do not have two natures, we have one, as partakers of the divine nature. The "two natures" teaching leads to a schizophrenic understanding of our spiritual identity, and to a paranoid uncertainty of what or who is prompting and motivating our behavior. And ironically it is this very belief in the schizophrenic duality of identity that provides the excuse for our failures. The fallacious "two natures" theory is what allows a Christian to blame his sin on the alleged "old sinful nature" that supposedly inhabits him.

 

[FreeNChrist]

That is exactly it. They do not know or understand the power of the spirit to overcome sin in the flesh through faith, so they simply deny that the flesh (old man) even exists, and walk in the imagination of their minds (that they are the righteousness of GOD in Christ).

Maybe taking the cotton out of your ears will help??

 

[crossnote]

We do what we do and believe what we believe based on 'faith' We recon ourselves dead and our life hid in Christ. By faith we agree with what God's word says. We are told to believe and IN THAT BELIEF IS HOW WE PUT OUR FLESH TO DEATH. If you give it life by trusting in IT you give it power., We are called to INSTEAD believe in what Christ has already done. so, recon it DONE BY FAITH. THAT IS HOW YOU PUT IT TO DEATH.

Again, that is just half the equation. We are to look to Jesus the Author and FINISHER of our faith, not just sit and reckon ourselves dead to sin and the law...

Romans 7:4-6 KJVS
[4] Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. [5] For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. [6] But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Romans 6:11-13 KJVS
[11] Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. [12] Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. [13] Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

 

[FreeNChrist]

Again, that is just half the equation. We are to look to Jesus the Author and FINISHER of our faith, not just sit and reckon ourselves dead to sin and the law...

Romans 7:4-6 KJVS
[4] Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. [5] For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. [6] But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Romans 6:11-13 KJVS
[11] Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. [12] Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. [13] Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

We are the ones looking to Jesus and we are the ones who are consistently pointing others to Him. If you cannot defend what you believe without mischaracterizing others, then you should really step back and re-consider the validity of your beliefs.

 

[Grace777x70]

I think it's a matter of identity .....perhaps the term "nature has to be defined better?.....and it's unfortunate that the NIV bible translated flesh as the sinful nature as now that is ingrained in many people's minds as a real nature we have......

we are not "in the flesh".....we are "in the Spirit".

Romans 8:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.


We also need to understand what the circumcision of the flesh and the heart is..also called the circumcision of Christ.

This is where the Holy Spirit seals our inner man..the new creation from our flesh..kinda like vacuumed sealed us.

...our new inner man created in Christ is in this body ( where the flesh is and the power of sin )..our indentity is NOT the flesh..it's who we are in Christ!

Romans 8:10-11 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness ( oppss..there's that righteousness thing again ).

I agree. And honestly I don't see why it would confuse people or be dishonest to call the flesh the sin nature. Is there something I am overlooking here?

 

[crossnote]

Well, I don't "balance" Grace, I am asking you what you think it should be balanced with.

Your question is a non sequiter to anything I have said.

Titus 2:11-12 KJVS
[11] For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, [12] Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

 

[Grace777x70]

Very true... before we can look at who we are in Christ...we need to be Texan-like and "reckon" ourselves dead to the sin which is in our flesh.

...we are for some, still trying to get over the hurdle of the old man being dead...we need to know that even before we can begin to see our new life in Christ.

We are saved by His life...we are to focus on Him and who we are in Him now..after we "know" we..ie..the old man is dead.

Romans 6:8 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

Romans 5:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Again, that is just half the equation. We are to look to Jesus the Author and FINISHER of our faith, not just sit and reckon ourselves dead to sin and the law...

Romans 7:4-6 KJVS
[4] Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. [5] For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. [6] But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Romans 6:11-13 KJVS
[11] Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. [12] Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. [13] Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

 

[crossnote]

We are the ones looking to Jesus and we are the ones who are consistently pointing others to Him. If you cannot defend what you believe without mischaracterizing others, then you should really step back and re-consider the validity of your beliefs.

You jumped in on my response to Lynn. Then you start changing your tune from reckoning to looking to Jesus.
I am only pointing out the danger of being one sided. Maybe a chill pill would do you some good.