Cheap Grace Or Free Grace?

[posthuman]

So, IOW, there is no way to teach the gospel without it causing divisions.

à la
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."
yes, amen, what He said is true.
but as far as among ourselves, i think if we're proclaiming the truth, we should be uniting each other rather than dividing.

What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you?
(James 4:1)
​

maybe some of us lust after a lack of accountability, and others lust after a thing to boast over? both of us ought to get over ourselves. i think i see both errors in my own flesh =\

 

[FreeNChrist]

à la
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."
yes, amen, what He said is true.
but as far as among ourselves, i think if we're proclaiming the truth, we should be uniting each other rather than dividing.

What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you?
(James 4:1)
​

maybe some of us lust after a lack of accountability, and others lust after a thing to boast over? both of us ought to get over ourselves. i think i see both errors in my own flesh =\

Well I see nothing but error in my flesh. But regardless, even if the gospel is taught as you think is the correct way, you admit that it can still cause division, for whatever reason, among believers as well as between sheep and goats. I guess that's just the way it is.

 

[Gr8grace]

you want to teach good works? it's in Romans.

Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord.
(Romans 12:11)

Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation -- but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it.
(Romans 8:12)​

you want to teach free grace, and salvation apart from works? it's in Romans.

Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
(Romans 4:4-5)​

you want to teach eternal security? it's in Romans.

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
(Romans 8:38-39)​

you want to teach falling out of grace? it's in Romans.

For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
(Romans 11:21-22)​

you want to preach predestination? it's in Romans.

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
(Romans 9:16-18)​

you want to teach free will? it's ... oh, wait ..

little help?

Freewill? Its in Romans 9.

New American Standard Bible
You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

He answers this in verse 21. Paul uses the debaters technique here. He knows that they are thinking ," well, it seems that you are telling us that we don't have a freewill, and that we can't choose, so how the heck can God find fault in us. We can't go against his will."

New American Standard Bible
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump(freewill) one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

The same lump, we can freely choose him(honorable) or freely deny Him (common/dishonorable.) This is why God can find fault in us. We all can choose Him.

 

[posthuman]

Freewill? Its in Romans 9.

New American Standard Bible
You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

He answers this in verse 21. Paul uses the debaters technique here. He knows that they are thinking ," well, it seems that you are telling us that we don't have a freewill, and that we can't choose, so how the heck can God find fault in us. We can't go against his will."

New American Standard Bible
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump(freewill) one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

The same lump, we can freely choose him(honorable) or freely deny Him (common/dishonorable.) This is why God can find fault in us. We all can choose Him.

hmm.. but i'm not the potter, He is. the clay doesn't decide for itself what sort of lump to be.

Paul answers the question "why does He still find fault?" by saying "who are you, a human being, to talk back to God?" -- still implying it's God's sovereign choice to have mercy on who He will have mercy, and harden who He will harden.

 

[posthuman]

Well I see nothing but error in my flesh. But regardless, even if the gospel is taught as you think is the correct way, you admit that it can still cause division, for whatever reason, among believers as well as between sheep and goats. I guess that's just the way it is.

yes, the preaching of the gospel divides brother against brother and even cuts hearts in two, but no, it's not the gospel causing division among believers - it's the lust in our hearts (re: James)

 

[FreeNChrist]

yes, the preaching of the gospel divides brother against brother and even cuts hearts in two, but no, it's not the gospel causing division among believers - it's the lust in our hearts (re: James)

Regardless of the cause, the point remains.

 

[crossnote]

That was a personal letter to Jerome Weller who was in the midst of depression. Weller was a theology student under Martin Luther's direct influence, living in his home and tutoring his children for nearly a decade.

Great godly advice he gave, eh? Reminds me of John Crowder of New.Modern.Hyper Grace fame.

again, it means nothing without context. And as I said, I don't follow Luther. He has some good and some not so good things to say.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

again, it means nothing without context. And as I said, I don't follow Luther. He has some good and some not so good things to say.

Here's the full letter > https://thefirstpremise.wordpress.com/2015/01/24/luthers-letter-to-jerome-weller/

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

More quotes from Luther

“God only obliges you to believe and to confess. In everything else, He leaves you free to do whatever you want, without any danger to your conscience. Further, it is certain that He does not care if you leave your wife, flee from your master, or are not faithful to any obligation. What is it to Him if you do or do not do such things?” (Werke, ed. de Weimar, 12, pp. 131ff., in ibid., p. 446).

“they are seven times worse than they were before. After preaching our doctrine, men have given themselves over to stealing, lying, trickery, debauchery, drunkenness, and every kind of vice. We have expelled one devil (the papacy) and seven worse have entered.” (Werke, 28, p. 763, in ibid., p. 440).

“After we understood that good works were not necessary for justification, we became much more remiss and colder in the practice of good … And if we could return today to the prior state of things and if the doctrine that affirms the necessity of doing good works could be revived, our eagerness and promptness in doing good works would be quite different” (Werke, 27, p. 443, in ibid., p. 441).

 

[posthuman]

Regardless of the cause, the point remains.

well, so long as the point is the existence of division, not the cause! ha!
thanks for making the point

 

[crossnote]

Here's the full letter > https://thefirstpremise.wordpress.com/2015/01/24/luthers-letter-to-jerome-weller/

Internet blogs that don't cite their reference? You know there are many in the RCC that would love to decimate Luther.
As a matter of fact, if it wasn't for his boldness at Worms you may be praying over your beads today.

 

[thecreationtutor]

GOD's grace that does save teaches differently.

For the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:11-13​

So Christians who live opposite - probably have to wonder if they really ever received the grace of God in the first place

Are we learning from the Grace that God gives us?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Internet blogs that don't cite their reference? You know there are many in the RCC that would love to decimate Luther.
As a matter of fact, if it wasn't for his boldness at Worms you may be praying over your beads today.

Well if you're so doubtful about it, why don't you find the original letter and set your mind at ease? I realize that the Catholic church has a vendetta against Luther, but I also discern from Luther's writings that he was unstable and lawless. That is important for me to discern because it mirrors what we are seeing today in the new.modern.hyper grace mvmt. And Luther is one of their icons.

If everything that is on the Internet wasn't what Luther actually wrote, you can bet that there would be as many Lutheran websites refuting what the Catholic websites produce. I haven't found that, but I have found websites trying to rationalize what he wrote.

 

[crossnote]

Well if you're so doubtful about it, why don't you find the original letter and set your mind at ease? I realize that the Catholic church has a vendetta against Luther, but I also discern from Luther's writings that he was unstable and lawless. That is important for me to discern because it mirrors what we are seeing today in the new.modern.hyper grace mvmt. And Luther is one of their icons.

If everything that is on the Internet wasn't what Luther actually wrote, you can bet that there would be as many Lutheran websites refuting what the Catholic websites produce. I haven't found that, but I have found websites trying to rationalize what he wrote.

Those that think Luther was all about easy grace should read his sermons, they are full of God's wrath and condemnation ...very little Gospel and they should read his expositions on the 10 Commandments.
Heck, people even take Jesus out of context making him either a Revolutionary, a hippie or a strict school master...means nothing to me.

 

[KennethC]

Correction above in bold.

That's right they should, but if it doesn't that means we are denying His guidance and working power.

That is a dangerous road as denying the Holy Spirit is denying Jesus, and if Jesus is denied then so also is the Father. We all know what Jesus said will happen to those who deny Him, don't we ???

 

[crossnote]

That's right they should, but if it doesn't that means we are denying His guidance and working power.

That is a dangerous road as denying the Holy Spirit is denying Jesus, and if Jesus is denied then so also is the Father. We all know what Jesus said will happen to those who deny Him, don't we ???

Peter was restored as a believer after denying Him, I'm afraid that a different fate would await those who merely profess Him, and then deny Him.

 

[KennethC]

Peter was restored as a believer after denying Him, I'm afraid that a different fate would await those who merely profess Him, and then deny Him.

That is because Peter returned to the Lord after denying Him..........

There is clearly taught in scripture though those that will later deny Him and not return.

Using examples like Peter only works in the cases of those who have denied Him hear or there, but did then return to Him. It does not work in the case of for example two of the groups mentioned in Jesus parable "Sower and the seed", where they accept the word and are even rooted in it for awhile and then they for some reason are drawn away and thus their faith is no longer in Him.

 

[crossnote]

That is because Peter returned to the Lord after denying Him..........

There is clearly taught in scripture though those that will later deny Him and not return.

I was only responding to your quote with no timeline on it ...

We all know what Jesus said will happen to those who deny Him, don't we ???

You are traipzing into the area of "If it is possible for a true Christian to ultimately deny their Lord."...and thus perish.
I don't believe so but I don't go there.

 

[Stephen63]

Lawless grace (that can't save) teaches that a person's conduct is irrelevant to salvation. For example,

"No sin will separate us from the lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day." Martin Luther​

GOD's grace that does save teaches differently.

For the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:11-13​

Decided this needed to be brought back to the front. Scripture gets sooo overlooked nowadays.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Decided this needed to be brought back to the front. Scripture gets sooo overlooked nowadays.

Yea it does. Eternal life is still eternal. No way you and your pals can ever destroy that.