Revelation Timeline

[DiscipleDave]

DiscipleDave said

It is your interpretation that the white horse is the antichrist, is it not? If Scriptures reveals that the anti-christ is the white horse then reveal the Scriptures which teach that, if you can't, then it is your interpretation that the white horse is the anti-christ and not what Scriptures teach.

But don't get me wrong, i believed as you are saying for most of my life, and it makes since what you are saying, but here is something i don't think you have thought about. The 7 year Tribulation period is the wrath of God. These are acts of God, that can only come from God and not from men. If you examine the first five seals, they are brought about by Men, wars, killing each other, killing Christians, Death. All five seals are results of men against humankind. It is only at the 6th seal that the wrath of God, coming from God begins. Verse 17 testifies this "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand. The first 5 seals did not say God's wrath has come. It is ONLY on the 6th seal does it plainly teach that the great day of His wrath has come, this is the Start of the 7 year Tribulation Period. That is the Truth.

^i^ to be continued.

The rapture of the church marks the time of the gentiles completed. And the end of the church age.

Correct, which is at the 7th Trumpet. The Rapture = 7th Trumpet. Time of the Gentiles completed = 7th Trumpet. Church Age over = 7th Trumpet

The seals. The white horse rider,marks the beginning of the GT.

GT?

And What Scriptures teach what you are saying here?

He has a crown. He is a world leader.

Are you saying because he has a crown, he is a world leader? Can a person have a crown and NOT be a world leader? Sure they can and do. Many people have crowns indicating they are a King of a particular country and the such. But because the rider of the white horse has a crown, you ASSUME it to mean a world leader, do you not? Where in all of Scriptures does it teach the one with the crown is the world leader? If Scriptures does not teach that, then why are you assuming because the rider of the white horse has a crown that mean he is a world leader? Therefore it is your personal opinion, or your personal belief that it is a world leader, and is not what Scriptures teach.

^i^

 

[KJV1611]

If Anyone can show me Scriptures which proves something in this picture is not correct, i would like to see it, please.
Please keep personal opinions, personal interpretations, personal thoughts, personal beliefs, out of it. Please just show me Scriptures which proves something in the picture below is not accurate.

View attachment 141823

Where does the peace kept peace broken come from?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Correct, which is at the 7th Trumpet. The Rapture = 7th Trumpet. Time of the Gentiles completed = 7th Trumpet. Church Age over = 7th Trumpet

Hello Dave,

Please provide scripture which demonstrates that the resurrection and catching away of the church takes place at the 7th trumpet.

 

[DiscipleDave]

DiscipleDave said

The 7 year Tribulation period is the wrath of God. These are acts of God, that can only come from God and not from men

The above is what I believe and what I have been proclaiming on this Forum since I've been here.

Then what you have been proclaiming is TRUE.

DiscipleDave said

If you examine the first five seals, they are brought about by Men, wars, killing each other, killing Christians, Death.

But what you are not taking into consideration Dave, is the fact that those wars and men killing each other and the great tribulation Saints who are being killed, is being initiated by the Lamb, Jesus Christ, who is the One opening the seals, which leads into the trumpets and then into the bowl judgments. The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are all included as belonging to the wrath of God.

Jesus initiates all the seals, from Heaven, not from Earth, And it is Jesus who tells the Angels when to blow their trumpets, and it is Jesus who will tell the Angels when to pour out the vials upon the Earth. Now i hear you saying "The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are all included as belonging to the wrath of God." Which i say is your opinion, your personal belief. But if i am wrong in that thinking, then show me any verse in Scriptures that teaches that ALL the seals are a part of the wrath of God. Or show me any Scriptures that teach the first five seals are a part of the Wrath of God would suffice as well. But there isn't any verse that you can show to back up your opinion that all the seals are a part of wrath of God.

If you think the first five seals are included in the wrath of God, Why does Scriptures teach that it is at the 6th seal that the great day of His Wrath has come?

Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

How can any part of the Tribulation period not be the Wrath of God. If the first five seals are the wrath of God, why does the Wrath of God start at the 6th seal, as it is written that it does? Is there any mention in any of the first five seals of the Wrath of God?

Now if the five seals have already started years ago, i know not. If they will start immediately prior to the start of the 7 year Tribulation Period, i know not, This information has not been given to me.

DiscipleDave said

All five seals are results of men against humankind. It is only at the 6th seal that the wrath of God, coming from God begins.

The announcement that "the great day of their wrath has come" at the opening of the 6th seal also includes the results of the first four seals, which will be a fourth of the earth's inhabitants being killed, and as previously stated, Jesus is the One who is opening seals.

Do you even see what you have done? YOU say "their" Scriptures did not say "their" that is what YOU are saying, because that is what YOU believe.

YOU also say this "the opening of the 6th seal also includes the results of the first four seals" i will make you a deal, i will believe what you teach if you can show the Scriptures which teach, or even indicates that the 6th seal includes the previous five seals. If you can't show Scriptures, then it is merely YOUR opinion they are included. It would be better for you, and pleases God, if you would state to people "This is my belief, that _____________________. Then to say something is TRUE, based on what you believe, based on YOUR own studies and what have you.

DiscipleDave said

It is your interpretation that the white horse is the antichrist, is it not? If Scriptures reveals that the anti-christ is the white horse then reveal the Scriptures which teach that, if you can't, then it is your interpretation that the white horse is the anti-christ and not what Scriptures teach.

"And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and he was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. 6He opened his mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven. 7Also he was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them."

i asked you to show me Scriptures which indicates or teaches that the WHITE HORSE is the anti-christ, then you give a Scripture which concerns the Beast. It says the Beast is allowed to make war on the Saints and to conquer them. So let me understand this. YOU say the white horse is the anti-christ, i ask you to show me Scriptures which teaches that, then you show me a Scripture which talks about the BEAST. Are you now saying that the BEAST and the anti-christ are the SAME? The Answer is NO. The Beast and the anti-christ are two entirely different entities. Therefore Your statement that the white horse is the anti-christ still needs to be backed up by Scriptures which you think teaches that or indicates that.

"I watched as the Lamb opened the first of the seven seals. Then I heard one of the four living creatures say in a voice like thunder, “Come!” 2I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest."

The first seal rider on the white horse is said to have been given a crown, which would be that ruler, that antichrist, of whom the whole world will worship.

Again, this is your opinion. Do you not tell others that they are voicing their opinions? Yes you do, i have read you telling people that, but you will not listen when the same medicine is given to you. Just because it is said he has a crown does not mean he is the anti-christ, just because he is given a crown does not mean the whole world will worship him. You do error in thinking that it does. Here is a fact, the mention that he will have a crown is a clear Scriptural evidence that he will be a KING. That is what having a crown means in Scriptures. But when you teach because he has a crown, he is the anti-christ, the whole world will worship, that is what you ADD to the meaning of the crown. You do error in your assumption.

He is also said to ride out as a conqueror bent on conquest,

What KING going out to conquer others, is NOT bent on conquest? There is not a KING in all the world, past, present, or future, that if they go against another country in war, are NOT bent on conquest. Just because this "he" has a crown, and is bent on conquest, does not automatically mean, it is the anti-christ. When eveyr person who is granted a crown (KING) when going out to conquer other countries is bent on conquest.

which would be synonymous with the scripture in Rev.13 which states that he is given power over the saints to make war against them and to conquer them for forty-two months, which is that last 3 1/2 years.

Actually it is the first 3 1/2 years that he has power, not the last, Jesus is King of all nations of the last 3 1/2 years. And it is not the anti-christ that has that power in Rev 13, but it is the BEAST that has this power, and that BEAST is made of many men with crowns on their heads (KINGS, Leaders, Rulers)

Your argument might have been better if you were to have said the White Horse is the Beast. For there are similarities between what the White Horse will do, and what the Beast will do. But NOT what the anti-christ will do. Remember it is the anti-christ who will get people to worship the Beast. Even the anti-christ knows who is more powerful than himself. It is like unto the President of the United States. It is the Government who has the POWER. The president is merely a face of that government. If the Government Sucks, we blame the president, do we not? The anti-christ will not be the POWER, but the anti-christ will be the face of that Power. Does the Government address the Nation, or does the president address the Nation voicing what the Government desires.

And which is also in reference to him having authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. Regarding this antichrist/beast conquering the saints, Dan7:25 refers to the same event:

"He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.[SUP]"

And those Saints are delivered during the first 3 1/2 years, not the latter as you say. The latter 3 1/2 years the Saints are gone, Raptured. And it is True many Christians, will accept the mark of the Beast, not having a clue who they are choosing to serve by doing so.[/SUP]

The first seal rider on the white horse is meant to be a counterfeit of the rider on the white horse in Rev.19:11-21 who is the Lord, which would also demonstrate that the fist seal rider is that pseudo-Christ.

Let me try to reach you another way. Do you not agree that the 7 Seals, the 7 Trumpets, and the 7 Vials are what consists of the wrath of God? Yes, i am sure you do. Now you teach that the White Horse of the first seal is the anti-christ. So the first seal is the wrath of God, the white horse is the anti-christ. Then the anti-christ is from GOD? What? God is using the anti-christ as a part of HIS Wrath? Is that what you are saying? Because that is what you are teaching by saying the white horse is the anti-christ of the first seal which is a seal from GOD and a part of the wrath of God.

Know you not that the anti-christ is from HELL. But you teach that God will crown the anti-christ and give him a white horse to ride on, and that God allows the anti-christ to conquer? And all that because it is part of God's wrath, being the first seal of the Wrath of God upon the Earth. Do you not realize that is what you teach when you teach that the white horse is the anti-christ?

Again, show me any Scriptures that teach or even indicates that the White Horse is the anti-christ. Please do not show me Scriptures which indicates the white horse is similar to the Beast, or similar to this or that, Show me Scriptures which makes you believe the white horse, (a part of God's Wrath) is the anti-christ, as you teach.

^i^

 

[GaryA]

Now in Diagram.

^i^

Thanks!

Another question...

Seeing that the 'Two Witnesses' share the same time frame as 'Trumpets Blown' in your diagram, would you say that what is said in Revelation 11:6 is describing [ some of ] the Trumpet events?

 

[GaryA]

The Problem with this belief, it does not line up with Scriptures. The Cross did not stop sacrifices. The Death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, did not cause the sacrifices to stop. 70 years AFTER the cross and resurrection of Jesus, the Temple was destroyed. It is when the Temple was destroyed is when the sacrifices were ceased. Therefore the Scriptures which are mentioned above must be a future prophesy yet to be fulfilled. Because the sacrifices did not stop at the cross, as people are teaching today, sacrifices stopped 70 years AFTER the cross. Jesus did not cause the sacrifices to cease, the Temple being destroyed is what caused the sacrifices to cease in the past.
Now the Temple will be rebuilt, and the Jews will begin to sacrifice again, it is THAT sacrificing that Jesus will cause to cease when He appears.

To say Jesus stopped the sacrifices at the cross, when in Truth the sacrifices did not cease until 70 years later when the Temple was destroyed, is to say and teach things that are not TRUE.

^i^

Three times you indicated "70 years after the cross" --- are you sure that you didn't actually mean to say ~35 years after the cross...?

 

[GaryA]

OOPS!

Three times you indicated "70 years after the cross" --- are you sure that you didn't actually mean to say ~35 years after the cross...?

~40 years

 

[DiscipleDave]

DiscipleDave said

Yet so far all you have done is given YOUR interpretation. YOU say "The Male Child is a collective name for the 144,000" If that is not your opinion, then reveal the Scriptures which teach that.

"She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter

First of all, I don't give my personal interpretations, but expound on what is revealed in scripture.[/quote]

You teach many things that you say are from Scriptures but are not from Scriptures, like you teaching the White horse is the anti-christ, is not from Scriptures, but is indeed your own personal interpretations of the Scriptures, that is the Truth. Whether you will accept it or not.

Do you believe the Scriptures, that there are 12,000 chosen from each tribe, or do you have to explain these Scriptures away in order to hold on to your belief?

If you would stop ranting and go back and read, you will see that I have always proclaimed that the 144,000 are 12,000 from each of the literal twelve tribes of Israel, with the exception of Manasseh who is standing in for the tribe of Dan.

i will now copy and paste what you actually said, to which i responded.

The Male Child is a collective name for the 144,000

i am in error in misunderstanding what you were saying here. When i read this statement, it seemed to me that you were saying that a Male Child only, is what makes up the collective 144,000 sealed. i see and understand now you were using the "The Male Child" spoken of in Scriptures as what represents the 144,000 that are sealed, and not a specific male child as being the 144,000. i am wrong, Please forgive me for this error.

By the way, proclaiming that these are "my opinions" is a typical maneuver to discredit the other person, which is what you are attempting to do.

OR, by saying that it is your opinion will provoke someone to go to Scriptures to prove me wrong. Ying / Yang. Positive / Negative. When i say something is an opinion, it is because i know it is not in Scriptures. For example when you say the white horse is the anti-christ, i know that is your opinion, because Scriptures does not teach that the white horse is the anti-christ. Now am i saying your opinion is wrong? Am i saying your opinion is Right? i am merely pointing out to you that it is an opinion that the white horse is the anti-christ. OPINION because Scriptures does not teach the White Horse is the antichrist.

You also misquote me in various things. For example:

"How in all of Heaven does the fact that they sing a new song, means the SAINTS and JESUS does not reign over them?

If you are going to accuse me of misquoting you then please reveal the post where i have done such a thing, that i might repent of it, if i have done what you now accuse me of doing. Also i find it extemely difficult to believe that i have done such a thing, when i copy and paste everything. You say :

You also misquote me in various things. For example:

"How in all of Heaven does the fact that they sing a new song, means the SAINTS and JESUS does not reign over them?

First off, You say i have misquoted you, then give an example, that is not a quote at all, but is a question to you. How is a question that i ask you, considered misquoting you? Secondly, didn't you make a comment to the effect that the 144,000 don't have anyone to reign over them, because they sing a new song? <-- please notice it is a question mark, i am not quoting you as saying that, if i were going to quote you as saying something, i would copy and paste what you said EXACTLY, so as to NOT misquote anyone at all. But it seems to me you have assumed that i have done this to you. i forgive you.

I referenced those 144,000 singing a new song that only they could learn, demonstrating that they are not an inferior group, to counter what you said about the saints reigning over the 144,000 in your post. I did not say that Jesus does not reign over them. Of course Jesus reigns over them, as he does all of the saints.

First off, NOWHERE did i say that you said Jesus does not reign over them. i never said that, therefore NEVER quoted you saying that. Secondly i am really confused, you said i misquoted you, but testify right here, that you countered what i said about the Saints reigning over the 144,000, that is to say you do not agree they do, right? So then i replied :

How in all of Heaven does the fact that they sing a new song, means the SAINTS and JESUS does not reign over them?

Then instead of answering the question that i presented to you, you accuse me of misquoting you, saying that i said that you said Jesus does not reign over them, which thing i never said. Thereby not answering the question, but have altogether diverted from answering the question. huh? Did anybody follow that?

DiscipleDave asked

How are they redeemed from the Earth? How are they firstfruits?

Let us see if i will get an answer to HOW they are redeemed, and HOW they are considered firstfruits.

"They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb."

So you have shown Scriptures that says they are redeemed, and that they are firstfruits, but have altogether FAILED to answer the question of the HOW they are redeemed, HOW they are considered firstfruits. So they were purchased, HOW are they purchased?

So regarding the above scripture, do you understand now how I could come to the conclusion that the 144,000 are the first fruits to God out of Israel?

Well i commend you for admitting that they are YOUR CONCLUSIONS, What YOU Ahwatukee have concluded, this is a good first step in admitting you have many conclusions, opinions, and interpretations.
Also, i have never said they are not the first fruits to God out of Israel. You have not revealed that to me, Scriptures plainly teach that. If there are 12,000 chosen from each TRIBE, that would be a clear indication it is out of Israel. Being that Israel had TRIBES.

What people do not understand to this day, is most everyone that is alive today is a descendant of one of the twelve tribes of Israel, a result of the Israelites being dispersed throughout the world. The 144,000 that are chosen, will be chosen from the people of the world today, depending on what Tribe you belong to. Now what Tribe you belong to, you know not, but God knows. God knows your lineage. Also there will be one born that will not have any lineage with Israel, but is a last descendant of Cain, this is the antichrist.

DiscipleDave asks

How does singing a new song mean or even implied that they do not have to obey anyone?

Again, you are putting words in my mouth, for I never said that 144,000 don't have to obey anyone. What I did say is that, the other saints do not reign over the 144,000. Please get your quotes right.

Stop it, your making me laugh, seriously i laughed. How is asking you if that is what you are saying, means that is what you said? How am i putting words in your mouth by asking you a question? Know you not that you falsely accuse me by saying those things. Have i ever said EVER, that you said the 144,000 don't have to obey anyone? i have never said that or ever remotely thought that is what you think, but according to you, that is what i have done and said and accused you of. show me the post where i have said such nonsense that i may repent of it.

People listen to me, if you are going to accuse someone of anything, then quote what they have said word for word, revealing also the post, so that person who is being accused of saying that, can go and see that they indeed said that. But do not falsely accuse your brothers and sisters, causing contention is a sin, causing strife is a sin, causing confusion is from satan. Falsely accusing others (Luke 3:14) is to try to put a stumbling block in their path, tempting them to get upset, angry, hurt, or what have you. The angel Lucifer was also an accuser of brethren.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

So if you are going to accuse a brother or sister, make sure you do it just and righteously, and by all means, have the evidence presented where they have done what you are accusing them of.

DiscipleDave said

We shall reign on the Earth? Huh? How do we reign ON THE EARTH? We (Jesus and the Saints) reign on the EARTH, what do we reign over? barren, waste land, an Earth that is void?

When Christ returns to the earth to end the age, he is obviously going to have to do some clean up and that because this present earth will have suffered much through the that seven years of God's wrath. [/quote]

So by this statement, you are POST-tribulation believer. You believe that Christ will come AFTER the entire 7 year Tribulation Period is over, Therefore can't come during the 7th Trumpet, because the 7 last vials must be poured out first, is that right?

Tell me, If Christ comes AFTER the 7 year Tribulation period, how are their any wicked left? The whole purpose of the 7 year Tribulation Period is to 1) create a New Heaven and New Earth and 2) destroy the wicked off the Earth. If the 7 year tribulation period wipes out all the wicked off the planet, why is it written that Jesus will rule people with a rod:

Isa_11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

So when does He slay the Wicked, at His Return at the END of the 7 year Tribulation Period, when all the wicked are already been destroyed by the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, and the 7 vials. What wicked will be hear for God to destroy if He comes at the end of the 7 years Tribulation Period?

Rev_2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Tell me why is this written if when Jesus gets here at the end of the 7 year Tribulation Period, will He have to Rule them with a ROD of iron, IF the wicked are already destroyed when He gets here?

Why is this written:

Zec_14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts (Where do they go to Worship Jesus? JERUSALEM), even upon them shall be no rain.
Zec_14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles. (Which will be held every year at JERUSALEM)

This is a time when Jesus is ON THE EARTH, Now if post-trib is True, then why are there many, and i say MANY verses which teach things like this, a time when Jesus will be ON THE EARTH, and if the wicked do not go up and worship Jesus, He will cause it not to rain for them, so they have no crops, if they will still not come up after that, Jesus will cause plagues to come upon them. Jesus will be king of all the Kingdoms of the Earth, when He gets here in the Middle of Tribulation Period.
If what you believe contradicts even one verse in Scriptures then what you believe is WRONG.
There are verse which are contrary to Pre-trib belief. There are verse that contrary to post-trib belief. Here is the TRUTH and is what God told me. Saints will go through some of the Tribulation Period, but not all of it. There is not one verse that is contrary to that belief. And it is the TRUTH. 7 seals are opened, 7 trumpets are blown, and at the 7th Trumpet Jesus shows up on Earth with the New City Jerusalem, then after Jesus takes up the Church to be with Him for ever and ever, then the 7 vials are poured out to wipe the remaining wicked off the Earth, but during that time Jesus sets up His Government on the Earth, At the first all Nations come against the New City Jerusalem, Anyone who comes against the Holy City, will die horribly, those who remain and did not go up against the Holy City, will be governed by Jesus, these are they if they do not come up every year to observe whatsoever Jesus say the world must observe, will not get any rain and the such. Jesus will rule over the people of the world with a rod of iron. Once Jesus arrives, it will take 3 1/2 years to pour out the vials upon the Earth to wipe the remainder of the wicked off the planet, setting the Earth up to be like a Garden of Eden for a thousand years, which they 144,000 that are Saved from mankind (firstfruits) Saved from the Tribulation Period, will repopulate the Earth in a great time of Peace, where there is no evil, and no sin, because satan is bound for God's Sabbath Day (1,000 years) Jesus and the Saints reign over the whole Earth during that time of Great Peace, Great Love, Great Happiness, Great Joy, Garden of Eden. God is creating the New Heaven and the New Earth for mankind, specifically for the 144,000 that are redeemed from the Earth. What? Do Saints need a New Heaven and a New Earth, they have all of Heaven to enjoy. The New Heaven and the New Earth are for the 144,000 souls that make it though the 7 years Tribulation Period.
Pre-trib Not Scriptural
Post-trib Not Scriptural
Mid-trib IS Scriptural.

^i^ continued

 

[TMS]

Please give me some evidence that the 70th week is seperated from the the other 69.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

70 weeks are given to the Jews and Jerusalem
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

69 weeks until the Messiah, Jesus.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

After 62 weeks the messiah shall be cut off
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Jesus will confirm which covenant for 1 week? What sacrifices and offering will He cause to stop and make desolate in the middle of the week? what will be pour upon the the desolate?

Exactly 3 and a half years after Jesus was baptised He died and the veil in the temple was ripped from top to bottom. (no need for the sacrifices anymore.)

 

[DiscipleDave]

When Christ returns to the earth to end the age, he is obviously going to have to do some clean up and that because this present earth will have suffered much through the that seven years of God's wrath.

OK this is got you saying, i am not misquoting you, i copied and pasted what you said, that Christ returns to the Earth to end the age, and has to clean up because of the previous seven years of God's wrath. This is teaching that Christ comes at the end of the 7 years. Post-trib. Then you say:

The woman/Israel, who will be cared for out in desert for that last 3 1/2 years, as well as those great tribulation saints who make it through alive when Christ returns to end the age, will be those who will repopulate the earth during the millennial period. The church will have already been resurrected and caught up prior to the beginning of God's wrath

This is pre-trib teaching, So which do you believe, Do you believe that when Christ comes He has to clean up what previously happened during the Tribulation Period, or does He come prior to the beginning of God's wrath, can't be both.

The church will have already been resurrected and caught up prior to the beginning of God's wrath and therefore, will already be in their glorified bodies and will rule with Christ during that thousand years over those who will be populating the earth in their mortal bodies.

The Church is caught up with Christ at the 7th Trumpet Sounding, That is Scriptural and is the TRUTH. Therefore if Christ comes at the 7th Trumpet, then Christians will go through all 7 seals, and all 6 trumpets. That is FACT and is Scriptural. So then because it is written that the great day of His wrath comes during the 6th seal, and it is at the 6th seal that His Wrath begins, EXACTLY like Scriptures plainly teaches, then He does not come at the beginning of God's wrath as you teach. What you teach is contrary to Scriptures. Scriptures teach the Great Day of His Wrath comes at the sixth seal. Scriptures teach that the last Trump is when Christ appears, and in reading the the last of the series of Trumpets mentioned in the Bible you see indeed that it is referring to Christ. All the Kingdoms now belong to Christ, There is Time no more. Read the description of the seventh Trumpet for yourself and see if it is not a description of Jesus Returning to the Earth, the Rapture.

At the end of the thousand years, after Satan's last rebellion, he will then be thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet will have been thrown into a thousand years earlier. Then, the unrighteous dead will be resurrected out of Hades and will stand before God at the great white thrown judgment, where anyone's name that is not found in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. At that time death and Hades will also be thrown into the lake of fire.

At the time satan is thrown in the lake of Fire and Brimstone the unsaved will also be thrown in the Fire and Brimstone. satan is judged at the Great White Throne Judgment.

Sometime during the great white throne judgment, this current heaven and earth will depart/pass away. After the great white throne judgment has taken place, according to Revelation 21 & 22, God will create a new heaven and new earth, with the new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven to the new earth.

So let me see if i understand you. We are going through the 7 Year Tribulation Period, then the thousand years happens, then satan is released and cast into the lake of fire and Brimstone, then the unsaved are judged at the Great White Throne Judgment, then the New Earth and New Heaven is created. Is that what you are saying?

So if during the 7 year Tribulation, when all grass is burnt up, and there are no islands, because there are no oceans at all, That is NOT a NEW EARTH to you?

People listen to me. The 7 year Tribulation period is a period of time that God will destroy this Earth with Fire, rivers will boil, all grass is burnt up. There will be no more oceans/seas, they are GONE, they don't exist any more. The very process it will take to destroy this Earth to create a New Earth is what will cause the Tribulation Period, it will destroy the wicked off the Earth. When Jesus reigns over the whole Earth during that thousand years, it is not over an EARTH that is burnt, ugly, void, damaged. The Earth Jesus reigns over during that thousand years will be in fact the NEW HEAVEN AND EARTH. The 144,000 will repopulate the Earth in Paradise conditions, not a fallen burnt Earth, not a destroyed Earth filled with smoke and radiation, and dead everything. What Kind of God would reign over THAT!!!! It's God we are talking about here. The Earth that God reigns over will be beautiful, full of flowers and LIFE Everywhere, children playing with lions, and wolves laying next to sheep, kids playing on the snakes hole. Paradise on Earth, all because God destroys the Earth and our atmosphere and it takes 7 years to accomplish that goal. i assure you with no doubts whatsoever, If God comes to the Earth, the Earth will be Paradise. Do not listen to anyone who tells you otherwise.

DiscipleDave said

It will be a New Heaven and a New Atmosphere, and the 144,000 are the ONLY humans to escape the 7 year Tribulation Period.

You have no idea what you are taking about! The 144,000 will have been caught up to God's throne and changed into their glorified bodies, which takes place in the middle of that seven year period and so they will not even be here for that last 3 1/2 years.

Ahh, now i understand Your a Jehovah's Witness, because what you just stated is also the same false doctrine that they teach. see The Jehovah's Witness Version of the 144,000

You believe ONLY 144,000 are going to be taken up with Jesus. Scriptures does not teach that at all, but that is what Jehovah's Witness teach. This explains a lot.

Those who do survive, will be those great tribulation saints who are not killed during the great tribulation and the woman/Israel who will have been cared for by God out in the desert during that last 3 1/2 years. These two groups will be those who will repopulate the earth.

Says YOU, NOT Scriptures. If you think Scriptures teaches that, then show the Scriptures that teach what you just said, else they are from YOU, and not Scriptures. You know, almost every post i respond to you, i ask you for Scriptures, and almost every single post your respond back, has no Scriptures, wander why that is? And even the ones that do have Scriptures, do not answer the question that i even asked, wander why that is?

DiscipleDave said

They will be children, they will be virgins, they will not know what a lie is, they will not even know what sin is, these are redeemed from the Earth, to continue the human population on EARTH, which we (Jesus and the Saints) WILL reign over.

Speaking of personal interpretations, please show us where scripture states that these 144,000 are going to be children and that they will not even know what sin is?

Scriptures does not say they are children, would you even believe me if i told you the TRUTH, but i will reveal this at the bottom of this post, not because of you, you have already made up your mind, no matter what i say, but because of the one out of a thousand who will be encouraged by it, i will reveal it.

If anything, scripture demonstrates that they are adult males and that because it is said of them, that will not have defiled themselves with women. It would be a moot point to mention that if they were in fact only children. Furthermore, the fact that these 144,000 are said to be "redeemed" would demonstrate that they are sinners and that Christ is their Savior.

Are you saying that it is not possible for them to be considered redeemed, if they are the only humans saved out the Tribulation Period? Impossible? Why do you associate the word redeemed to mean "sinners"

Exo_21:8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.

That does not mean sinner.

Num_3:51 And Moses gave the money of them that were redeemed unto Aaron and to his sons, according to the word of the LORD, as the LORD commanded Moses.

Doesn't mean sinner.

Num_18:16 And those that are to be redeemed from a month old shalt thou redeem, according to thine estimation, for the money of five shekels, after the shekel of the sanctuary, which is twenty gerahs.

Not about sinners.

Deu_7:8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Notice it is not about sinners, but those who were SAVED, redeemed from becoming slaves. There are many, many other verses which mention the word redeemed, and 95% of those verses, it is not about sinners at all. So for you to assume that those who were redeemed had to be sinners is to do just that, assume.

So then just because it says they are redeemed, does not demonstrate that they are sinners as you think and teach others.

To be redeemed means that a ransom was paid, that is, to buy back, which is exactly what Christ did for all believers, the ransom being the shedding of his blood.

Yeah that is one meaning for the word redeemed, are you saying there can't possibly be another meaning for the word "redeemed"? And if there can be other meanings such as "Being Saved From" or "Returning that which was purchased" then why do you automatically choose the word to mean something about sin?

Now concerning how i know they are children, it is because i seen it in one of the Visions God gave to me. i prayed to God for understanding who the 144,000 were and what did they represent, and then not to long after i had a vision of it. i was standing in some kind of field that had been totally burnt, everything around the field was burnt, i smelled smoke in the air. The sky was dark and ugly. To my right i seen what use to be a woods, just the main part of the trees standing, no limbs on any tree, fire was still burning on most of the trees, i looked around, everything was burnt, total destruction. my thought was "How did i get here, where am i?" After looking around i thought who can survive this? Is the whole Earth Gone? Then something moved to my right. You have to understand everything i was looking around me, was like in a black and white movie. Everything burnt, sky grey, black everywhere. But i seen colors, and they stood out as if shining, red and blues and yellow in a black and white world. They were coming out of the woods that was burnt, seen one, seen more, they were children, all of them, children walking out of the woods, all of them untouched by fire, not even smoke on their faces. Clothes were clean as can be, color so vivid it was amazing to see, most of them were holding hands, their ages was i think any where from 3 to 7 years old. i thought "Who are these children?" then there seemed to be thousands of them coming out of the woods, then i thought "These are the 144,000. They are children that make it out of the Tribulation Period" Then i woke up. But like the others, i know what is a dream and what is a vision. A vision is like i was actually there, felt real, felt True. Dreams are dreams and do not feel real to me. i was there, i was standing in that field. So immediately i went to Scriptures, i went to the internet, i researched if Scriptures taught contrary to what God has shown me, it didn't. i told others about the vision, and even now tell you. The 144,000 are children that are sealed by God and make it though the Tribulation Period. They are the ones who make it through to repopulate the Earth. The Saints don't repopulate the Earth, the Saints are taken up with Jesus, they live in the place that Jesus has prepared for them. It is the 144,000 that are redeemed from the Earth, the only humans that are SAVED from the Tribulation Period.

Here is the TRUTH, When Jesus Christ comes to the Earth the Saints will be taken up with Him to live with Him where He is, and He will be in the New City Jerusalem. Now if after that time, you believe and do not take the mark of the Beast, you will not be sealed by God as one of the 144,000. You will be KILLED. The easy way to get into Heaven it to be on the first boat when Christ Raptures the Church, But if you miss that boat, and believe, and don't take the mark of the beast, you will be KILLED, but you will be able to go to Heaven. Please read my article Two Ways To Heaven

^i^ respond to #104

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Dave,

The confusion here is that you are not making a distinction between Christ's appearing to gather the church to take us back to the Father's house/heaven, which takes place prior to the first seal being opened, in opposition to Christ's return to the earth to end the age, which takes place some time after the 7th bowl has been poured out. These are two separate events which are at least seven years apart.

The Church is caught up with Christ at the 7th Trumpet Sounding, That is Scriptural and is the TRUTH.

Regarding the above, there is nothing in scripture that even mentions the church being caught up at the 7th trumpet. I have an idea of what you are talking about here though, as this is a well known false teaching. Correct me if I am wrong, but you making the "last trumpet" synonymous with the 7th trumpet. There are a few major problems with this interpretation, which I will list below:

1.) The word "trumpet" is not exclusive to the 7th trumpet, as there are many trumpets throughout scripture. That being said, just because there are seven trumpets does not automatically make the 7th trumpet the "last trumpet." That would be to read into the scripture what is not there, that is, an assumption on your part.

2.) In support of #1, the trumpet judgments are exactly that, they are judgments of God's wrath and there are no blessings associated with any of the seals, trumpet, or bowl judgments. In addition, the 5th, 6th and 7th trumpets are also referred to as woes because of their severity and therefore, there certainly is not going to be the blessing of the resurrection and catching away mixed in with the 7th trumpet/3rd woe.

3.) Nowhere in scripture at the sounding of the 7th trumpet is there any mention of a resurrection and catching away. Again, these are trumpet judgments and there is no blessings associated with them.

4.) You will not find the word "Ekklesia" translated as "Church" anywhere from Rev.4 onward, but only the word "Hagios" translated as "Saints." Likewise, from Rev.1 thru the very end of chapter 3, you will never see the word "Saints" but only the word "Church." God is making a distinction here between the church and the great tribulation saints who are introduced in Rev.7:9-17. During the entire narrative of God's wrath, the word "Church" is never used, but only the word "Saints."

So then because it is written that the great day of His wrath comes during the 6th seal, and it is at the 6th seal that His Wrath begins, EXACTLY like Scriptures plainly teaches,

Regarding the above, the problem is that you are looking at that announcement in the wrong way. You think, as well as others, that it is only after the announcement that the great day of their wrath will come, that is that the wrath is restricted to everything that takes place after the announcement, which is a false assumption! The words "has come" includes the events of the seals and what is still to take place. The words "has come" is in the Aorist which means:

(especially in Greek) an unqualified past tense of a verb without reference to duration or completion of the action

Therefore, the words "has come" includes what will have already taken place, namely the seals, as well as the wrath that is still to come, which will be the trumpets and bowl judgments.

All the Kingdoms now belong to Christ, There is Time no more. Read the description of the seventh Trumpet for yourself and see if it is not a description of Jesus Returning to the Earth, the Rapture.

And yet, according to scripture, after the 7th trumpet is sounded, there are seven bowl judgments of God's wrath left to be poured out. And we know that Christ doesn't return until after the last bowl judgment has been poured out and that because after the 6th bowl judgment has been poured out, Jesus interjects with the following:

"Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed"

Therefore, the sounding of the 7th trumpet does not end God's wrath and that because there are seven bowl judgments yet to take place.

At the time satan is thrown in the lake of Fire and Brimstone the unsaved will also be thrown in the Fire and Brimstone. satan is judged at the Great White Throne Judgment.

I would have to disagree with you on that as well and that because, Rev.20:10 has Satan being thrown into the lake of fire, which is then followed by the great white throne judgment in Rev.20:11. Therefore, it shows Satan being thrown into the Lake of Fire before the great white throne judgment begins. Check it and see for yourself.

So let me see if i understand you. We are going through the 7 Year Tribulation Period, then the thousand years happens, then Satan is released and cast into the lake of fire and Brimstone, then the unsaved are judged at the Great White Throne Judgment, then the New Earth and New Heaven is created. Is that what you are saying?

To make a correction from your post above, "We" the church, will not be going through the 7 year tribulation. It is the great tribulation saints that will be going through that seven years. That aside, if you follow the chronological order in Revelation, the order that you listed above is the correct sequence.

So if during the 7 year Tribulation, when all grass is burnt up, and there are no islands, because there are no oceans at all, That is NOT a NEW EARTH to you?

The islands and mountains do not completely disappear until the 7th bowl judgment. Another erroneous assumption by many, is that the great earthquake that takes place at the 6th seal, is synonymous with the earthquake of the 7th bowl judgment, when these are in fact just two different earthquakes. The great earthquake that takes place at the 6th seal, only moves, stirs, jostles, the mountains and the islands and they remain in their places. In opposition to that earthquake, at the pouring out of the 7th bowl judgment, it is said to be the greatest earthquake since mankind has been upon the face of the earth, including the earthquake that takes place at the 6th seal judgment. In fact, the word "earthquake" is used seven times in the book of Revelation and each one is a different earthquake.

Regarding there being "no oceans" that also does not happen until the 2nd bowl judgment, when God turns all of the oceans into blood. Prior to that, a third of the ocean will be turned into blood. After the 2nd bowl judgment, then God turns the rivers and fresh waters into blood. If you are referring to there being "no oceans" as described in Rev.21:1, this is a characteristic of the new earth, not this present earth.

When Jesus reigns over the whole Earth during that thousand years, it is not over an EARTH that is burnt, ugly, void, damaged.

Obviously, Jesus is going to have to refurbish this present earth for the millennial period. But, the chronological order does not have the new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem coming until after the great white throne judgment. See for yourself! The great white throne judgment is listed in Rev.20:11:15 and then in Rev.21 and 22 we see the new heaven, new earth and the new Jerusalem. The proof that the thousand years takes place on this present earth can be deduced by the fact that, during the great white throne judgment, which takes place after the thousand years, Death is thrown into the lake of fire. Yet during the thousand years and before death is thrown into the lake of fire, we see that at the end of it that, God rains down fire and sulfur upon Gog and Magog killing them, which wouldn't be possible if death had already been destroyed in the lake of fire. We also have scripture regarding the thousand years that say "if a man fails to reach a hundred years old, he will be thought to be accursed." And another which says, "If a man fails to reach a hundred years old, he will be thought to be a mere child. These would both demonstrate that death is still in operation during the millennial period, where it won't exist during the new heaven and new earth (Rev.21:4).

Do not listen to anyone who tells you otherwise.

As I have made clear many times, I do not get my scriptural information from the teachings of men, but are the result of my own private studies for over 40 years. The information that I am giving you is from what the Spirit has revealed to me through study.

Ahh, now i understand Your a Jehovah's Witness, because what you just stated is also the same false doctrine that they teach. see The Jehovah's Witness Version of the 144,000

You believe ONLY 144,000 are going to be taken up with Jesus. Scriptures does not teach that at all, but that is what Jehovah's Witness teach. This explains a lot.

I have nothing what so ever in common with Jehovah's Witnesses. It is your false assumption and lack of understanding that brings you to that conclusion. The JW's think that they alone are the 144,000, which is of course ridiculous. The 144,000 are the first fruits to God, that are made up of the twelve tribes of Israel, 12,000 per tribe, who will come to the knowledge that Jesus is their Messiah and they are not apart of church, which will have already been removed. The Male child of Rev.12, is a collective name for the 144,000 who are all males. The catching up of the 144,000, is a completely separate event from the resurrection and catching away of the church.

Originally Posted by Ahwatukee

Those who do survive, will be those great tribulation saints who are not killed during the great tribulation and the woman/Israel who will have been cared for by God out in the desert during that last 3 1/2 years. These two groups will be those who will repopulate the earth.




Says YOU, NOT Scriptures. If you think Scriptures teaches that, then show the Scriptures that teach what you just said, else they are from YOU, and not Scriptures. .

"The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days."

"The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach."

As you can see above, from the middle of the seven years, the woman/Israel flees out into the wilderness where she is cared for by God during that last 3 1/2 years. At the end of that 3 1/2 years is when Jesus returns. So there is your scriptural proof. Unless you think that God is going to prepare a place for Israel out in the wilderness during that last 3 1/2 years and then is going to let her be killed. Otherwise, her being cared for is to ensure that she survives through the end of the great tribulation period, which means that Israel will be one of the groups who will repopulate the earth in their mortal bodies during the millennial period. The other group will be the great tribulation saints who survive through the end of the great tribulation as well.

You know, almost every post i respond to you, i ask you for Scriptures, and almost every single post your respond back, has no Scriptures, wander why that is? And even the ones that do have Scriptures, do not answer the question that i even asked, wander why that is?

Now the above is joke! For I know for a fact and which I believe everyone else on this forum will agree with, that if I do anything, it is that I always provide scripture to back up what I am saying. Just go look at all of my posts and you will always find scripture in them. I am not contending for my word nor am I looking for my own glory, but I am zealous for the truth and accuracy of God's word and for his glory!

Scriptures does not say they are children, would you even believe me if i told you the TRUTH, but i will reveal this at the bottom of this post, not because of you, you have already made up your mind, no matter what i say, but because of the one out of a thousand who will be encouraged by it, i will reveal it.

The reason that I would not believe you if you told me and that I have already made up my mind, is because I know Revelation inside and out and so when you tell me that the 144,000 are children, as you did in your previous post, I already know that there is no where in Revelation that even hints at that idea. And if scripture is not even hinting that they are, then you are the one who is applying your own interpretation.

Are you saying that it is not possible for them to be considered redeemed, if they are the only humans saved out the Tribulation Period? Impossible? Why do you associate the word redeemed to mean "sinners"

If you will look at what I wrote, I am in fact saying that "they are" redeemed and that because Rev.14:3 says they are. Also, I associate the word "redeemed to mean "sinners" because the word "redeemed" means to be bought back, the price being the shed blood of Christ. Also, if you are attempting to infer that these 144,000 are without sin, then that would be in direct contradiction of scripture, which says, there is none righteous, not one. All have sinned, all fall short of God's glory.

Now concerning how i know they are children, it is because i seen it in one of the Visions God gave to me. i prayed to God for understanding who the 144,000 were and what did they represent, and then not to long after i had a vision of it.

I'm sorry, but so-called visions do not count and that because there is no way to prove their validity. Therefore, unless your vision is in agreement with scripture, then I will rest on scriptures. For I can tell you right now that your so-called vision of the 144,000 already contradicts scripture, which states that these 144,000 will have not defiled themselves with women, which would demonstrate that they are adult males. For if they were children, then there would be no need to mention them not defiling themselves with woman and that because they would be young children. You see how that works?

Here is the TRUTH, When Jesus Christ comes to the Earth the Saints will be taken up with Him to live with Him where He is, and He will be in the New City Jerusalem. Now if after that time, you believe and do not take the mark of the Beast, you will not be sealed by God as one of the 144,000. You will be KILLED. The easy way to get into Heaven it to be on the first boat when Christ Raptures the Church, But if you miss that boat, and believe, and don't take the mark of the beast, you will be KILLED, but you will be able to go to Heaven.

Here is the chronological order of events according to scripture:

* I will build my church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. The church is still in progress. (Mt.16:18)

* The Lord descends from heaven and gathers the church and takes us back to the Father's house. (John 14:1-3, 1 Cor.15:51-53, 1 Thes.4:13-18)

* The ruler makes his covenant with Israel for seven years. (Dan.9:27, Mt.24:15)

* The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments continue throughout the entire seven years. (Rev.6 thru 18)

* Abomination that causes the desolation set up in the holy place within the temple in the middle of the seven years. (Dan.9:27, Mt.24:15)

* The seventh bowl is poured out. God's wrath is finished! (Rev.16:17)

* Christ returns to the earth to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom (Mt.24:29-31, Rev.1:7, 19:11-21)

* The beast and the false prophet are captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire (Rev.19:20)

* All those gathered at Har-Mageddon are killed with the double-edged sword (Rev.19:21)

* Angel seizes Satan and throws him into the Abyss and is restricted during Christ's thousand year reign. (Rev.20:1-3)

* Great tribulation saints are resurrected and rule with Christ for a thousand years (Rev.20:6)

* Satan released at the end of the thousand years for that last rebellion (Rev.20:7-9)

* Satan thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet will have been thrown (Rev.20:10)

* Great white throne judgment of the Unrighteous dead (Rev.20:11-15)

* Heaven and earth flee from God presence and no place if found for them (Rev.20:11)

* Death and Hades thrown into the lake of fire (Rev.20:14)

* Eternity: New heaven, new earth, new Jerusalem (Rev.21 & 22)

 

[DP]

i will repeat what i have asked for people to do.



Please just show me Scriptures which PROVES something in the picture is not accurate. This entire post is showing personal opinions, personal interpretations, personal thoughts, and personal beliefs. And not one Scripture that proves what is in the diagram is wrong.

^i^

Let's see. I referred to these Scriptures directly... Dan.8; Rev.13; 2 Thess.2; 1 Cor.15; Rev.11; Rev.20; Rev.22; Zech.14; Rev.6; Matt.24; Mark 13; Luke 21; Ezek.47; Rev.7; Rev.14; Rev.15; Isaiah 25;...

... and indirectly to Dan.9 & 11 about the AOD; Rev.16 about Armageddon; Eph.4:30 about the sealing being by The Holy Spirit; ...

... and you say I'm only giving you opinions without Scripture basis???

The truth of the matter more likely is you're not willing to look at those Scriptures and weigh what I've said, because it would upset those errors you have in your timeline that do NOT keep to those Scriptures.

 

[DP]

Thanks!

Another question...

... would you say that what is said in Revelation 11:6 is describing [ some of ] the Trumpet events?

Of course it is, because the 3 Woe periods given with the last 3 trumpets show those events starting at Rev.9:12 on the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe flows all the way to the sounding of the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe at Rev.11:14-15.

Rev.10 serves as a parenthetical chapter, like a break from a storyline in order to go into a detail about a specific topic. At Rev.11:1 the events of the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe continue.

Since the "dragon" of Rev.13 is given power for 42 months, and the Gentiles of Rev.11:1-2 tread the holy city for 42 months, and that period also equals the period of 1260 days God's two witnesses are given to prophesy, that is showing us the latter 3.5 years period of the Book of Daniel, starting from Rev.9:12 flowing to Rev.11:14. Thus the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period is about the time of great tribulation just prior to Jesus' 2nd coming.

 

[GaryA]

Thanks!

Another question...

Seeing that the 'Two Witnesses' share the same time frame as 'Trumpets Blown' in your diagram, would you say that what is said in Revelation 11:6 is describing [ some of ] the Trumpet events?

Of course it is, because the 3 Woe periods given with the last 3 trumpets show those events starting at Rev.9:12 on the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe flows all the way to the sounding of the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe at Rev.11:14-15.

Rev.10 serves as a parenthetical chapter, like a break from a storyline in order to go into a detail about a specific topic. At Rev.11:1 the events of the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe continue.

Since the "dragon" of Rev.13 is given power for 42 months, and the Gentiles of Rev.11:1-2 tread the holy city for 42 months, and that period also equals the period of 1260 days God's two witnesses are given to prophesy, that is showing us the latter 3.5 years period of the Book of Daniel, starting from Rev.9:12 flowing to Rev.11:14. Thus the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period is about the time of great tribulation just prior to Jesus' 2nd coming.

"Thanks for the answer, but I am really [ specifically ] wanting and waiting to get DiscipleDave's take on it..."

 

[KennethC]

Exactly -- it must be the same as every other week in the 70 weeks. And, not averaged --- '1 day' = '1 year' for every day of every week of the 70 weeks - from start to finish...



Or ---> all 490 years came and went, unbroken.



There is no direct correlation ( in time ) between the 70th week of Daniel and 70 A.D. The end of the 70 weeks marks the end of the 'Times of the Jews' and the beginning of the 'Times of the Gentiles'. This mark in time was ~3.5 years after the crucifixion of Christ.



I would like to see any place in the Bible where it actually indicates a determined amount of time between the Abomination of Desolation and the Second Coming of Christ...



"Really? Where does it say that in the Bible?"



"Maybe, maybe not..."





"A lot of people sure like to imagine things the Bible does not actually say..."

Revelation 13:5 (time frame given to the beast) and Revelation 19:20 (Jesus cast him and the false prophet in the lake of fire)

 

[GaryA]

Revelation 13:5 (time frame given to the beast) and Revelation 19:20 (Jesus cast him and the false prophet in the lake of fire)

How do you associate-and-connect the AoD with the beginning of the 42 months mentioned in Revelation 13:5? What makes you so sure that the 42 months have not actually ended at some point before Jesus comes back? The alignment of the AoD with the beginning of the 42 months, and the alignment of the ending of the 42 months with the appearance of Jesus, seems to be assumed by you and others. Otherwise, show me some scripture that actually makes these associations clear --- just because Jesus throws the beast into the lake of fire does not mean that the beast was "in power" as "world ruler" up until that particular moment... Show me some scripture that actually aligns the AoD with anything specific -- other than the beginning of the Great Tribulation Period. Show me some scripture that actually aligns the beginning of the Great Tribulation Period with any particular 3.5-year or 7-year time frame.

And, do it without making reference to Daniel 9:27 -- because, that verse says absolutely nothing about any [ futuristic ] end-times beast / anti-christ / etc. or any [ futuristic ] end-times time frame. The only 'futuristic' [ anything ] in Daniel 9:27 has to do with the phrase 'even until the consummation'. With that exception, Daniel 9:24-27 is 100% completely fulfilled...

 

[KJV1611]

Daniel 9:27 KJV
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Things to note about Daniel 9:27.

• He shall confirm the covenant - This is a not some new future "end times" covenant, this covenant was in existence before Jesus died on the cross. He is CONFIRMING an already existing covenant.

• For the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate - This is not the abomination of desolation, that's in another part of Daniel. This sentence says that because of the multitudes of abominations committed by someone or some group of people, He will make them desolate.

• Even until the consumation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate - He shall make that group of people desolate even until the end, and that punishment which had already been determined for all of their abominations shall be poured out on the ones who are desolate... the ones who committed the many abominations.

 

[Bowman]

You know Dave, I don't get involved in eschatological debates because they are just speculation. In Seminary we were presented with all 4 end times scenerios and given books to read by scholars that supported the viewpoints, and then we were supposed to decide, based on what we had read, and more important, the Bible which we had all read many times, and studied in depth, including in the original languages.

The problem with this thread and your posts, is that everyone seems to be posting actual Scriptures, except you. I didn't read the whole thread, but every post I read by you, you are lecturing without reference to the Bible and then demanding other people prove their viewpoint.

Why don't you post a few Bible verses or a 100 showing why your scenerio is right. You are not a prophet, and it seems to me that you set yourself up to judge, and never refer to the Bible.

I will be willing to listen to you, when you actually post the Bible, instead of your opinions, ok?

Agreed.....

 

[Bookends]

24 “Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

The 70 weeks is all in one clump, that's what the inspired Daniel wrote. Paul states all these things were fulfilled, and it took 70 (prophetic) weeks. Do I need to show scripture to those who don't know their bible? (I don't mean to sound arrogant here, but if you don't know you're bible well, you shouldn't be engaged in this topic).

 

[Bookends]

The Jews were in exile in Babylon for 70 years.

In Leviticius 26 God said, "23 ‘And if by these things you are not reformed by Me, but walk contrary to Me,24 then I also will walk contrary to you, and I will punish you yet seven times for your sins.

So the seventy weeks is the extension of their punishment, 70x7. Initially they were punished 70 years, but God said He would punish them 7 times that amount if they didn't fully repent and return to Him wholeheartedly. Israels return to the land wasn't really a picnic yah know! Lots to struggles, wars, etc. etc. Earthly Israel never really recovered after the Babylonian captivity, they never had a king, yes they lived in the land but they didn't run things.

However, true Israel, believing Israel did receive their king! Jesus did restore the kingdom and right now God sees Israel as if they're sitting right next to Christ in heavenly places. Jesus said to the believing disciples, "Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom. (Luke 12:32)..