Can a christian lose their salvation

[notuptome]

Can a Christian change their mind?

God changes the heart.

Pr 21:1 The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[iwant2serve]

Please, simply vote yes or no, thank you

I believe it can be eternal but at the same time each person has a role in remaining saved. Most people say its all on God and nothing to do with a person because we did not save ourselves. I agree no one can save themselves that way not boasting can be done. Yet our role is to continue after God and not turn back.
Matthew 10:22: "...he that endureth to the end shall be saved."
John 15:6: "If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up , thrown into the fire and burned."
1 Corinthians 15-2: "By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain."
Galatians 6:8-9: "The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
2 Timothy 2:12: "If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us."
2 Peter 2:20-21: "For if after they have escaped the pollution's of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning

These scriptures talk about one not staying with God but turning back on their own, so while they did not lose it they by their actions forfeited salvation.

 

[Utah]

Hi Utah., I usually agree with you and also other respected Christians who are well read and good teachers. But on this subject of renouncing the faith, I see even a larger need for Christ's keeping and the Holy Spirit's sealing. As fallible human beings., we make idiotic decisions sometimes in our lives that change the course of our relationships and even our health and mental and emotional stability.

The reason for this is our lack of using the wisdom Christ gave us. We have the wisdom of Christ but we often fail to grow in it. It is still a tiny seed that we didn't water and nurture. It is still there but it has not grown to be a driving force in our human lives. Sometimes we come to that awareness later in life and only begin to grow in wisdom at an older age (humanly speaking) acting like babies when we should be mature and past childish things.

For me, Jesus knows this about us and has also paid for that lack as well. It has to be that way since life on earth is so subject to soooooooo many things and so many challenges to mind and body. How can we trust ourselves to be that wise in each and every situation that comes our way? Why else would usually smart people do such idiotic things?? And I'm talking Christians here.,not the unsaved.

Another reason why in His wisdom and knowledge He sealed us by His Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. We learn from our falls and have many bruises and cuts and hurts from the wrong turns we made in life. The more tragic the fall the more clearly I see how much I need Him to keep me from falling down from some other opposition to my faith. Here again., grace teaches.

Amen to this, my Sister. All the more reason for us to rejoice in God's saving grace in Jesus Christ. Its not about what we did, do, will do or won't do, its about Jesus and what He did (die on the Cross and raise from the dead) and what He continues to do (reign in Heaven).

 

[iwant2serve]

If you are truly repentant of your sins and ask Jesus into your life, no you cannot say "just kidding." If you did, you were not sincere to begin with. Look at post #186 and read Mark 4. You can certainly accept Jesus into your life and later backslide or walk out of step with Him, but you are still saved.

So I backslide, walkout or step away and go back to the things I once did while unsaved I am still saved?
That is the problem with Grace taken to the extreme. You walk away and die in your sins you will not enter the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:19-21
[SUP] [/SUP]Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[iwant2serve]

It's funny, but the only ones I hear preaching insecurity are the ones who boast they are most secure. It's almost like they're trying to convince themselves (seeing as most of "Elvis" has left the building). But by all means, continue with your mutual admiration society meeting...

Informal poll:

OF THOSE WHO BELIEVE ONE CAN RENOUNCE THEIR SALVATION (Do I have to repeat that?), how many of you feel insecure in your salvation?

I sure don't.

I am not insecure at all because I know what God did on me. I am also not close minded to think I can fall back into my old lifestyle and think I am still going to enter the kingdom of God. God called for a specific way for a believer to live with all the instructions we need to live that way and the help we need.

 

[Grace777x70]

So, a Christian who dies with envy...they go straight to hell?....or what about someone who is in strife with their spouse for a week and one night they die in their sleep.....they are certainly "doing" the work of the flesh here...do they go to hell too?

.is it possible that "inherit the kingdom " means something other then eternal life or hell?

Notice that verses 19-21 are "works " of the flesh...

1 Corinthians 15:50 (NASB)
[SUP]50 [/SUP] Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
Is it possible that there is an inheriting of the kingdom here on this earth for those that walk according to the Spirit?

Luke 17:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Is it possible we will experience the benefits like peace and joy of the kingdom within ourselves if we "do" the "works" of the flesh?

So I backslide, walkout or step away and go back to the things I once did while unsaved I am still saved?
That is the problem with Grace taken to the extreme. You walk away and die in your sins you will not enter the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[iwant2serve]

Hey Ricky., I guess the reason we are so passionate about the truth of eternal security in the Bible and why we encourage other brothers and sisters in Christ to learn about it is because many of us know what it is like to fear going to hell. What Christians end up having is "a fearful expectation of judgement"

And also for me at least the reason I keep hopping on these threads that speak about the security of the believer is many new Christians (and older ones alike) are told they must maintain the 'gift' and that they need to keep it a hold of Jesus or they will lose Him; when in fact it is Jesus who keeps a hold of us and promises NEVER to lose us. And that is such good news we can't help but want to share it and spread it around.

As much as I respect your views I see you looking through this from one who was afraid of loosing salvation as many are. Thinking that if they make a mistake they have fallen away from God and in danger of going to hell. That type of teaching and thinking is polar opposite of what you now believe. Salvation is eternal and we do have a part in it rather people want to believe that or not. You had to make the decision to come to Jesus rather called or given to Him. You also have to make the decision that you are going to stay with him. that does not make it a works based salvation either is it done by your own merits. It simply means I continue to trust in God that that he will do what his word says and not doubt and turn back to my own understanding.

 

[FreeNChrist]

So I backslide, walkout or step away and go back to the things I once did while unsaved I am still saved?
That is the problem with Grace taken to the extreme. You walk away and die in your sins you will not enter the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

No, that is the problem with not taking grace to the extreme.

 

[Budman]

If i can choose salvation, (JESUS), i can also choose to reject it.
Are some of you saying that once i choose to accept salvation i can never choose to reject it?

If one is truly saved, then you cannot "leave" the family of God. Our salvation was not initiated by us, nor is it kept by us. We are eternally secure because it's based on Christ - His word and reputation​ are at stake. We are promised that we can never be condemned, lost, or rejected for any reason after conversion. God will finish what He has started.

Some may choose to run away, and not be associated with their family any longer, but that does not make them any less children of their parents. It's biological. They were produced physically by two parents. We are produced spiritually by God. We are His offspring - and nothing can change that.

 

[Budman]

So is that just a round-about way of saying that you don't think there are any laws?

"If we are led by the Spirit we are not under the Law." (Galatians 5:18)

"Christ is the end of the Law." (Romans 10:4)

Ephesians 2:15 says Christ abolished the Law.

The only sin attributed to man is unbelief in Christ. (John 16:9) It is the only basis as to whether one goes to heaven or hell.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

"If we are led by the Spirit we are not under the Law." (Galatians 5:18)

"Christ is the end of the Law." (Romans 10:4)

Ephesians 2:15 says Christ abolished the Law.

The only sin attributed to man is unbelief in Christ. (John 16:9) It is the only basis as to whether one goes to heaven or hell.

But you would agree that the spirit is law, right? It tells us what GOD wants us to do. If we don't do what the spirit says that could lead to trouble, don't you agree?

 

[FreeNChrist]

But you would agree that the spirit is law, right? It tells us what GOD wants us to do. If we don't do what the spirit says that could lead to trouble, don't you agree?

"It" tells us?

 

[Jimbone]

"If we are led by the Spirit we are not under the Law." (Galatians 5:18)

"Christ is the end of the Law." (Romans 10:4)

Ephesians 2:15 says Christ abolished the Law.

The only sin attributed to man is unbelief in Christ. (John 16:9) It is the only basis as to whether one goes to heaven or hell.

I think the biggest misunderstanding comes when people take this as "now we are free to sin all we want and it's all good", like salvation is just a license to sin all we want with no fear of consequence, and are free to sin away (which I guess we are, but feel that the Spirit wont allow it). My understanding of what happen to me at regeneration and being born again and made new was that the Spirit entered me and changed me making me more aware of my sinful ways and gave me the will and power to work and start changing them. It did not just give me the ability to sin all I want with no worry or guilt about it. To the contrary really, now when I sin, and I still do no doubt for it doesn't perfect us into sinless beings completely perfect, that sin is amplified to me and makes me want to repent and try to avoid that behavior in the future. I see so much back and forth over this issue and think really clarifying exactly what we mean when we say this would go a LONG way in avoiding unnecessary argument.

 

[ladylynn]

That's why what you teach is rightfully called lawless grace.

It's about a Father/son relationship and a probation officer is not what we have with God, although maybe many of us used to feel that way and relate to God that way even after we were saved. Who we really have is a loving Savior and God who seeks to show us His love and grace every day of our lives. But how to believe that?? it's by faith. Getting saved is the beginning.

I think it's called the perfect law of liberty...will look it up. There is also in Heb.8:12

"The new covenant works because of the last clause. God can put His laws in our minds and write them on our hearts, and all of us can know Him and be led by Him. Our part is to believe something major about Jesus for our lives. That HE ONLY is the ONLY WAY to salvation and that once we receive Him, we have the gift of eternal life. To know that without doubt all our sins were all punished on the cross all our sins and lawless deeds He remembers NO MORE." (Unmerited Favor)

I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more. (In the new covenant our part is to believe). That we are completely forgiven of all our sins, and that the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all our unrighteousness and lawlessness.

How is it possible to forgive us and no longer remember our sins? Because they were remembered when Jesus died on the cross for us. God cannot lie. So our part is to honor Him and believe Him when He says He will remember them no more. When we do that part, life takes on major change. The problem with us Christians is we don't really actually believe it and we fail to do our part. Instead we are trying to do Jesus part and have failed.

 

[ladylynn]

I am not insecure at all because I know what God did on me. I am also not close minded to think I can fall back into my old lifestyle and think I am still going to enter the kingdom of God. God called for a specific way for a believer to live with all the instructions we need to live that way and the help we need.

And you are not alone in this belief. Many teachers I respect like Andrew Wommack also believe once they are saved they can renounce Jesus. I simply cannot accept that because my faith in the keeping of our souls is based on what I read in the Bible and also what I know about myself and what Jesus did in me. I put no confidence in the flesh (literally) I am confident in His ability to keep me focused on Him (now that I've lived a while and made some major wrong turns in my life choices I never thought I'd ever have done., divorce being one of those choices).

So I am also aware of the minds natural tendencies to make wrong judgments based on wrong believing. Confusion can be inserted in that mixed bowl of wrong believing and before a person knows it they are totally screwed up in their thinking. And are making emotional choices based on different kinds of pain and running from those things in an effort to fix life in their own strength. (Been there....done that.)

For me, Jesus either saves us and keeps us or He doesn't. Either His love is conditional or it isn't. Maybe it takes a fallen person who has come back to be able to say that without reservation? That grace HAD to be taken to the extreme in order to have the faith to believe it is all of Jesus and none of me. Taking that promise literally is what got me on track. And once I believed, Jesus took over and made my life over again. "Grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts., to live soberly righteously and Godly in this PRESENT world."

Grace taken to the extreme has not taught me to sin, it has taught me how not to sin.

 

[ladylynn]

In this parable of Christ He highlights the fact that continued forgiveness is conditional for the believer. The story is found in Matthew 18:21-35, and revolves around the forgiveness of God. A certain king responded to the pleas of his servant and forgave him a large debt. That servant went out and found a fellow servant who owed him a small amount and showed no mercy, throwing him in prison because he could not pay. When the king heard what had happened, he rescinded his cancellation of the large debt and had his servant thrown to the tormentors till he paid in full.

No one can deny the obvious teaching of this parable. Even though God graciously forgives those who apply for it, that forgiveness is not without conditions for the future. We can lose that forgiveness by being unmerciful to others. This is in harmony with the words of the Lord in Ezekiel 33:13, "When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it." The principle is repeated in verse 18, "When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby."

I can appreciate why you see this the way you do. Below is a teacher I like to listen too who has some similar views but he also considers the rest of the parable. I very much respect Andrew Wommack for his dedication to the Bible and teaching but do not agree with his ideas on eternal security.


The word “therefore,” with which Jesus began this parable, ties this teaching in with His previous statement on forgiving (Matthew 18:22) and, indeed, on the related topics of church discipline (Matthew 18:15-20) and God’s compassion for the lost (Matthew 18:12-14). This parable simply illustrates what He already said.
The main thrust of this parable is that when people wrong us, we should remember God’s great mercy that He has shown to us and respond in kind (Ephesians 4:32). Any debt that could be owed to us is insignificant compared to the debt of which we have been forgiven. We should have compassion on others just as Christ had on us (Colossians 3:13 and James 2:13).
If we fail to forgive others just as we have been forgiven, then this parable teaches that we can once again become liable for the debt that has been forgiven. This could be illustrating the church discipline spoken of in Matthew 18:15-20. This man’s fellow servants brought him before his master for judgment similar to Christ’s instructions about how to discipline a brother (see note 5 at Matthew 18:17). This could also illustrate those who have been saved but renounce their faith, become reprobate, and suffer the torments of hell.
It is certain that not every part of this parable can be applied literally, because the lord of this servant commanded this man’s wife and children to be sold as part of the payment of this debt. This cannot be applied to the spiritual meaning of this parable in light of the Scriptures’ teaching that every man and woman will receive judgment for their own sins and not another’s (Deuteronomy 24:16, 2 Kings 14:6, Jeremiah 31:29-30, and Ezekiel 18:19-32).
Therefore, caution should be used when drawing conclusions about judgment from this parable. The main point emphasized is the necessity of forgiving others and the severe consequences if we don’t.

 

[Grace777x70]

I have listened to Andrew Wommack and others talk about the possibility of renouncing Christ..but they also say that they have never seen it done. I believe it's in the confusion of those scriptures in Heb 6 and 10...in some people's minds..something has to be done with these...some look at it as the Jews having heard of Christ - reject Him and go to the temple for the sacrifices....there are pros and cons..I'm more inclined to go with the fact that these people rejecting Christ are not believers yet...just my 2 cents worth.

And you are not alone in this belief. Many teachers I respect like Andrew Wommack also believe once they are saved they can renounce Jesus.

 

[ladylynn]

As much as I respect your views I see you looking through this from one who was afraid of loosing salvation as many are. Thinking that if they make a mistake they have fallen away from God and in danger of going to hell. That type of teaching and thinking is polar opposite of what you now believe. Salvation is eternal and we do have a part in it rather people want to believe that or not. You had to make the decision to come to Jesus rather called or given to Him. You also have to make the decision that you are going to stay with him. that does not make it a works based salvation either is it done by your own merits. It simply means I continue to trust in God that that he will do what his word says and not doubt and turn back to my own understanding.

My other post probably answers these comments iwant2serve. But I can agree with you about the fear of hell and being without God. And I think most anyone who takes God and His Word seriously have come to the same fears and conclusions; (do or die) But I've since learned "grace" is not about doing or dying on my part. Jesus did all the doing and He died on the cross. For me to try to do what He did on the cross would show the Lord I thought what He did was not enough.

What I have learned from what Jesus did for me on the cross was about love. And I no longer fear the loss of my salvation because "perfect loves casts out fear" The love that is unconditional and enduring. Just reading 1 Cor.13 is a tiny glimpse of what love really is and how many of us can claim to love this way? We love Him because He first loved us. And we learn how to love others not based on how they treat us but on how Jesus treats us. Getting a revelation of God's love is what changes everything.
And seeing all things from the perspective of the Cross.

 

[20]

What make you Christian? Its in what you believe.If you do not believe to Him than He keep yours salvation to the and of yours life.Of course,its happen.His children can not lose it because they believe Him all time.1John5;1-5 and 1John5;18. Satan make big profit from that;try to make us unbelievers.

 

[RickyZ]

Satan make big profit from that;try to make us unbelievers.

And according to 1 Timothy 4, he sometimes succeeds.