misunderstandings between Catholics and Christians

[epostle]

Originally Posted by Mec99

Romans 10:9-13

[SUP]9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
11 For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
13 For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 4:3
3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

Here you go fordman. This is why we True Christians Pray to God confessing that Jesus is God![/SUP]

What fordman is trying to get across is that the sinners prayer, no matter which style is used, is not explicitly found in scripture, but formulated or inferred. For that reason, it violates the sola scriptura mandate. Specifically this: "All doctrines and practices that are not explicitly found in scripture cannot be trustworthy." It is a man made doctrine strictly followed by non-Catholics that is not in the Bible! That, I think, is the point fordman is trying to make. He is not confronting the validity of the sinners prayer, he is confronting the man made unbiblical tradition of sola scriptura. If anyone wants to open a thread defending it, good luck.

"All doctrines and practices that are not explicitly found in scripture cannot be trustworthy." It is another way of saying the bible is the sole rule of faith. Well, none of the sinners prayers listed by fordman can be explicitly found in scripture, but are inferred. Protestants can argue that such inferences are perfectly acceptable. Well, that's fine. The Bible does not give a single verse or even a slight inference supporting sola scriptura. The Protestant may argue that sola scriptura is a principle or is infered by a hand full of verses, and all attempts at finding explicit supporting verses fail.

The reformers made up a doctrine based on non-existing inferences, yet reject strong biblical inferences for things like infant baptism, beliefin baptismal regeneration, prayers for the dead, veneration of theSaints, the Seven sacraments, the evangelical counsels, and others. These were well in place in the Christian (Catholic) community before the canon of the Bible. The historical evidence is there for anyone who wishes to see it.

Just saying the sinners prayer is not enough. Salvation is a free gift, not a free ticket. One must live a moral life and be part of a community of believers and a bunch of other things.

 

[epostle]

https://carm.org/list-of-roman-catholic-false-teachings

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.
Catholics get banned when Matt Slick's falsehoods get exposed and refuted.
He is the most dishonest lying Calvinoid on the 'net.

 

[Euphemia]

What fordman is trying to get across is that the sinners prayer, no matter which style is used, is not explicitly found in scripture, but formulated or inferred. For that reason, it violates the sola scriptura mandate. Specifically this: "All doctrines and practices that are not explicitly found in scripture cannot be trustworthy." It is a man made doctrine strictly followed by non-Catholics that is not in the Bible! That, I think, is the point fordman is trying to make. He is not confronting the validity of the sinners prayer, he is confronting the man made unbiblical tradition of sola scriptura. If anyone wants to open a thread defending it, good luck.

"All doctrines and practices that are not explicitly found in scripture cannot be trustworthy." It is another way of saying the bible is the sole rule of faith. Well, none of the sinners prayers listed by fordman can be explicitly found in scripture, but are inferred. Protestants can argue that such inferences are perfectly acceptable. Well, that's fine. The Bible does not give a single verse or even a slight inference supporting sola scriptura. The Protestant may argue that sola scriptura is a principle or is infered by a hand full of verses, and all attempts at finding explicit supporting verses fail.

The reformers made up a doctrine based on non-existing inferences, yet reject strong biblical inferences for things like infant baptism, beliefin baptismal regeneration, prayers for the dead, veneration of theSaints, the Seven sacraments, the evangelical counsels, and others. These were well in place in the Christian (Catholic) community before the canon of the Bible. The historical evidence is there for anyone who wishes to see it.

Right, there is no such doctrine of "The Sinner's Prayer" in scripture, and I have never run across it in all my years as a Christian, although I have heard the phrase. There is no biblical basis for the doctrines of infant baptism, baptismal regeneration, prayers for the dead, veneration of the saints, the Catholic institution of the priesthood and the papacy, purgatory, beatification, the rosary or transubstantiation, to name a few.


.

 

[Budman]

How convenient of an answer for you. You still haven't answerd the first question. all you did was post a Scripture passage, (Rom.10:9-10) then I counterd them by bringing up Matt.7:21; Lk. 6:46.

"Where is the Sinners Prayer located in Scripture?

As it is typical among Protestants/non-Catholics, I found differnt versions of the 'Sinner's Prayer', maybe you can educate me which one is right, and which is wrong, or maybe you have your own version.

"Dear Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, and I ask for Your forgiveness. I believe You died for my sins and rose from the dead. I turn from my sins and invite You to come into my heart and life. I want to trust and follow You as my Lord and Savior. In Your Name. Amen."

"Lord Jesus, I need You. Thank You for dying on the cross for my sins. I open the door of my life and receive You as my Savior and Lord. Thank You for forgiving my sins and giving me eternal life. Take control of the throne of my life. Make me the kind of person You want me to be. Amen."

"Heavenly Father, I know that I am a sinner and that I deserve to go to hell. I believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for my sins. I do now receive him as my Lord and personal Savior. I promise to serve you to the best of my ability. Please save me. In Jesus’ name, Amen."

Now I did a search, and could not find in these words of the "Sinner's Prayer" in Scripture. So the question is....Can you? If not, your only answer can be......... "No, these words of the "Sinners Prayer" are not in the Bible, therefore they are just traditions of man." Thats all you have to admit. Whats so hard about that? Then we could move on the the rest of the "easy and laughable" questions,
　

Pax Christi
　

p.s. The three versions of the Sinners Prayer I posted. Well budman, I cut and pasted them from three differnt Protestant web-sites, do you want me to go back to find and post back here their web-sites names?

The sinner's prayer is one of repentance via confession and faith. Which is exactly what Romans 10:9-10 states.

As far as the rest: I was settling in to go after the other questions "you" posted, but I actually sat back in my chair and pondered a bit. I see no reason to debate you as long as all you do is cut-and-paste other people's answers. I would not be debating you, I would be debating them.

If you and I are to debate, I suggest we do it from God's Word alone - the Bible. If you can't prove your beliefs from Scripture alone (which is the foundation of all Christian doctrine) then your beliefs are false. Plain and simple.

Keep your Catholic "traditions", "councils", and "magisterium" out of it.

Just me and you, with the Bible between us.

No cut-and-pastes - just your thoughts verses mine.

What do you say?

 

[dcontroversal]

Ummmm....
BAPTIZE = Immerse not sprinkle
Salvation= In Christ alone...church salvation false
Mary, the Pope etc have no power to mediate...there is but ONE Jesus
BUYING INDULGENCES is false
SACRAMENTAL SALVATION...HERESY

REALLY..to be honest....an unbiased evaluation of the bible will reveal the truth....and the Catholic church does not have the truth...even the Popes push for a one world religion is spelled out as heretical as we are not ALL THE CHILDREN OF GOD.....Just sayin...

 

[Budman]

Then let's compare statistics with Protestant ministers and Catholic priests over the past 5 years. I have facts from non-Catholic sources, you have empty hate speech from a blackened heart. Back you go into my ignorasium where you can play with the other psychotic brats. I provide lego and coloring books.

View attachment 142547

​

And there it is, once again. Someone (Valiant) was beating you soundly through debate, and you put them on ignore.

 

[Mec99]

Again fordman, show us where in the Scriptures in its entirety is the Hail Mary Prayer?

Show us the Book, Chapter, and Verse where the Hail Mary in its entirety is in the Scriptures!

 

[Mec99]

All the Catholics can do is put people on ignore!

Epostle knows for a fact he is wrong. But because of his Pride in his knowledge, he believes he has more Truths than God!

Epostle is like the Pharisees in the days when God walked on the Earth. They rejected Jesus because they believed they had the Truth and Jesus did not!

 

[PaulMack]

Its interesting that the Catholics reject everything the Scriptures says to promote the teachings of the Catholic Church as the ONLY source for the Truth.

Why are you doing the will of Satan epostle? Why fordman are you promoting the lies of Satan as Truths from God?

There is no Truth in the Catholic Church today. The Catholic Church has walked away from the Truth from God to follow their god Mary. Its Mary the Catholics want to Worship. Its Mary the Catholics serve. Its Mary the Catholics teach that is greater than God.

Have you noticed how every time someone brings proof of the Truth from the Scriptures that epostle always puts them on ignore? Is this the best he can do?

Its a waste of time to bring the Gospel of Salvation to the Catholics because all they do is trample the Word of God into the dirt and spit on God.

 

[fordman]

The sinner's prayer is one of repentance via confession and faith. Which is exactly what Romans 10:9-10 states.

But you "Still" fail to show where any of those three versions of the Sinner's Prayer I posted is found in Scripture. There have been some in your Sola Scripturist camp that have already admitted it's simply not there. For example:

Euphema: "Right, there is no such doctrine of "The Sinner's Prayer" in scripture, and I have never run across it in all my years as a Christian, although I have heard the phrase."

49: "Have not seen the sinner's prayer in Scripture myself, but have seen it in the closing pages of many bible tracts and such."

So why can't you? Pride?
　

As far as the rest: I was settling in to go after the other questions "you" posted, but I actually sat back in my chair and pondered a bit. I see no reason to debate you as long as all you do is cut-and-paste other people's answers. I would not be debating you, I would be debating them.

No.... you would be debating Catholicism, in which I (them) are members of. You see budman, I have over two thousand years of Church history to work with, whereas you have what..... a little over five hundred years? It actually depends on which one of the thousands of different Protestant/non-Catholic sects you belong. (which is by the way?) And I for one would have no problem you using in your research!
　

If you and I are to debate, I suggest we do it from God's Word alone - the Bible. If you can't prove your beliefs from Scripture alone (which is the foundation of all Christian doctrine) then your beliefs are false. Plain and simple.

Sorry, just can't do that. If I were to agree to these terms, I would be agreeing with your doctrine of Sola Scriptura, that you claim is, "the foundation of all Christian doctrine.." which is exactly what I am arguing against! My argument is that Sola Scriptura, the doctrine "All doctrines and practices that are not explicitly found in Scripture cannot be trustworthy" is a unbiblical man made doctrine which makes "your" beliefs false..... Plain and simple.
　

Keep your Catholic "traditions", "councils", and "magisterium" out of it.

Just me and you, with the Bible between us.

No cut-and-pastes - just your thoughts verses mine.

Again... I am not the Sola Scripturist.... you are! We Catholics don't beleive in the unbiblical doctrine of "The bible alone is all one needs as a sole rule of faith." No.... We believe that Scripture, Sacred and Apostolic Traditions go hand in hand. You see, we beleive that like a three leged stool, Sacred Scripture, Sacred Traditions, and The Magesterium making sure God's word dependably. Unlike your Protestant/ non-Catholic sects beleif of the unbiblical doctrine of the Bible alone that allows personal opinions and interpretation of Scripture which results in error and disunity. So no, I cannot agree to your terms. For as a Catholic, I will not, and cannot debate you strickly on a "Sola Scripturist" basis.
　

What do you say?

What do I think? Well I think that when you were sitting back, pondering in your chair, you had just finished doing reserch on the other questions, seeing you may have trouble backing them up with Scripture and may be looking for an out. Hence your demands, knowing damn good and well I won't agree too.

So Budman, should we move on to the next question, or let someone else with more cajones in your Sola Scripturist camp answer them? The ball's in your court.
　


Pax Christi

 

[fordman]

Again fordman, show us where in the Scriptures in its entirety is the Hail Mary Prayer?

Show us the Book, Chapter, and Verse where the Hail Mary in its entirety is in the Scriptures!

Again Mecc99, I'm not the one who believes in the un-biblical doctrine of Sola Scriptura.....You are! Why is that so difficult for you to understand???
　


Sooooo.... Once again:
show where these words of the Protestant/non-Catholic "Sinner's Prayer" are at in Scripture/Bible. (Chapter/verse) If you cannot, whats so difficult in just admitting they're not?


"Dear Lord Jesus, I know that I am a sinner, and I ask for Your forgiveness. I believe You died for my sins and rose from the dead. I turn from my sins and invite You to come into my heart and life. I want to trust and follow You as my Lord and Savior. In Your Name. Amen."

"Lord Jesus, I need You. Thank You for dying on the cross for my sins. I open the door of my life and receive You as my Savior and Lord. Thank You for forgiving my sins and giving me eternal life. Take control of the throne of my life. Make me the kind of person You want me to be. Amen."

"Heavenly Father, I know that I am a sinner and that I deserve to go to hell. I believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for my sins. I do now receive him as my Lord and personal Savior. I promise to serve you to the best of my ability. Please save me. In Jesus’ name, Amen."
　

After you show me or not show me where these words appear in Scripture, and admit it's not there, I will address you on the Biblical basis of the Hail Mary prayer.
　
　


Pax Christi

 

[epostle]

Ummmm....
BAPTIZE = Immerse not sprinkle
Salvation= In Christ alone...church salvation false
Mary, the Pope etc have no power to mediate...there is but ONE Jesus
BUYING INDULGENCES is false
SACRAMENTAL SALVATION...HERESY

REALLY..to be honest....an unbiased evaluation of the bible will reveal the truth....and the Catholic church does not have the truth...even the Popes push for a one world religion is spelled out as heretical as we are not ALL THE CHILDREN OF GOD.....Just sayin...

Do you know what a straw man argument is?

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent.

In other words, you condemn the Catholic Church based on your own shallow preconceptions that no amount of education can change. If you have sincere, honest questions, fine. I will do everything I can to answer you. But assertions based on ignorance, blind prejudice and NO supporting data is not discussion, it's just throwing rocks.

 

[epostle]

And there it is, once again. Someone (Valiant) was beating you soundly through debate, and you put them on ignore.

Valiant was already on my ignore list, I just had to take a peak. It appears, by your admission, that constant insults and hate speech is "sound debate". Valiant is a forum terrorist and a waste of my time.

 

[Utah]

Its interesting that the Catholics reject everything the Scriptures says to promote the teachings of the Catholic Church as the ONLY source for the Truth.

Why are you doing the will of Satan epostle? Why fordman are you promoting the lies of Satan as Truths from God?

There is no Truth in the Catholic Church today. The Catholic Church has walked away from the Truth from God to follow their god Mary. Its Mary the Catholics want to Worship. Its Mary the Catholics serve. Its Mary the Catholics teach that is greater than God.

Have you noticed how every time someone brings proof of the Truth from the Scriptures that epostle always puts them on ignore? Is this the best he can do?

Its a waste of time to bring the Gospel of Salvation to the Catholics because all they do is trample the Word of God into the dirt and spit on God.

Catholics put the Catholic church above Jesus. If they didn't they'd understand grace.

You can quote me on that.

 

[dcontroversal]

Haha that is hilarious..the only straw man in this thread is trying to defend catholic dogma..all of which can be condemend by the word of God pal...so..if I were u..I suggest you go to the bible and open your blinded eyes......here I will help you..point one..There is only ONE (1) mediator between God and Men..the Man Christ Jesus....no mention of a poop, mary, a priest...oh I mean Pope....wake up pal...if you are going to mouth about straw men I suggest you have your ducks lined up first....your Papa just invited the world into a one world religion..exactly what Satan, the beast and Little horn will bring about before JESUS COMES BACK AND DESTROYS YOUR FALSE RELIGION....WHAT A FARCE!

Do you know what a straw man argument is?

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent.

In other words, you condemn the Catholic Church based on your own shallow preconceptions that no amount of education can change. If you have sincere, honest questions, fine. I will do everything I can to answer you. But assertions based on ignorance, blind prejudice and NO supporting data is not discussion, it's just throwing rocks.

 

[epostle]

Haha that is hilarious..the only straw man in this thread is trying to defend catholic dogma..all of which can be condemend by the word of God pal...so..if I were u..I suggest you go to the bible and open your blinded eyes......here I will help you..point one..There is only ONE (1) mediator between God and Men..the Man Christ Jesus....no mention of a poop, mary, a priest...oh I mean Pope....wake up pal...if you are going to mouth about straw men I suggest you have your ducks lined up first....your Papa just invited the world into a one world religion..exactly what Satan, the beast and Little horn will bring about before JESUS COMES BACK AND DESTROYS YOUR FALSE RELIGION....WHAT A FARCE!

I will talk about anything with you when you unclench your fists. But the "one world religion" is for paranoid ignorant fanatics who get their degree in geopolitics by reading comic books and funnymentalist hate literature. Like I said, ask a sincere honest question and I will do my best to answer it. But I don't waste my time trying to heal blind prejudice and irrational hatred. Tell your doctor how you feel about the Catholic Church. He has medications that can help you.

 

[Euphemia]

In other words, you condemn the Catholic Church based on your own shallow preconceptions that no amount of education can change. If you have sincere, honest questions, fine. I will do everything I can to answer you. But assertions based on ignorance, blind prejudice and NO supporting data is not discussion, it's just throwing rocks.

The truth is that Jesus will condemn the false Catholic religion based on the truth of His might word as it slices through your religion's false tenets and false, and misdirected worship. It's His job, and He will do it.


.

 

[epostle]

Catholics put the Catholic church above Jesus.

Jesus commissioned the Catholic Church to teach about Him, and has done so consistently for 2000 years. The evidence is there for anyone who wants to see it. Protestant individualism, relativism, and reductionism has no consistency and has decimated Protestantism since it began 500 years ago. From what I see in this forum, Christians put Dave Hunt and Jackkk Chickkk and their scions above Jesus, in defiance of reason and common sense.
Your premise is flawed.

If they didn't they'd understand grace.

But we do. You don't understand "full of grace", kecharitomene which flows from your own premise of the meaning of grace. You reject Protestant Greek scholars' definitions, and if you refuse to accept them, all you are left with is private opinions.

You can quote me on that.

 

[dcontroversal]

YOU do understand the word ignorance right....because you seem to reek of it....no biggie to me pal..follow your religion straight to the gates of hell if you so choose...now..quit flapping your lips and address the 4 or 5 things that I already pointed out that your religion misses the mark on..start with the one mediator between men and God....you can count right....1 plus 0 equals one...that would be Jesus.....one plus anything equals 2 or more...My bible teaches 1 mediator....not 2, 3 or more.....so..wise up pal before your two fold the child of hell catches you unaware

I will talk about anything with you when you unclench your fists. But the "one world religion" is for paranoid ignorant fanatics who get their degree in geopolitics by reading comic books and funnymentalist hate literature. Like I said, ask a sincere honest question and I will do my best to answer it. But I don't waste my time trying to heal blind prejudice and irrational hatred. Tell your doctor how you feel about the Catholic Church. He has medications that can help you.
View attachment 142617

 

[PoetMary]

I am perfectly logical as I follow the word and the way the Church is supposed to function according to God. The Church of Jesus Christ for the most part functions according to the word. Where they get off balance is when they have become sectarian and over-doctrinized with man's traditions (which Jesus openly despised) and doctrines that are not biblical..

Every denomination thinks they have it all sorted in terms of "following the bible." All denominations engage in interpretation. All denominations have "man made" ideas incorporated into their services. For example, there is no record of the early church using instruments in worship (they were a persecuted church after all that met secretly in houses and catacombs). So, the Church of Christ doesn't use instruments in worship and THEY claim they are "following the bible." There is no record of "altar calls" within church services, yet there are many churches that have an altar call every week. There is no record of specific church buildings being used (back to the houses and catacombs), so the "house church" movement thinks that they have their finger on "what the bible really says."

I agree that apostolic succession is one huge heresy that the RCC has dreamed up, and serves to keep people who believe it in bondage to it..

I think it's interesting how you presumed before that I was promoting apostolic succession and now you presume I object to it because you "agree" that it's "one huge heresy." I tried to present the information as objectively as possible. My own view isn't particularly important. I don't care if people agree or disagree with me. I just think it's more useful and ethical to be ACCURATE when discussing these topics than to engage in a lot of propaganda.

No ad hominems from me. I was just stating a fact. Apostolic succession is a man-made idea based on a very poor understanding of the scriptures, and a self-promoting idea of certain men who would rise up to become leaders in the religion known as Catholicism.

Actually, you didn't state a FACT. Facts are objectively provable. What you stated was an opinion based on your interpretation of scripture. Additionally, you didn't even support this opinion with any scriptural evidence. So there was this underlying presumption that your interpretation is fact that requires no actual biblical support.