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More like Satan commissioned the catholic church which has led billions to hell....tell me something o wise one...why have the last three poops bowed to and kissed the Koran? The last poop will be the false prophet and point all to the beast....will you take the mark of your master? SURE YOU WILL....why...because you follow a pagan, idol worshipping false religion!
Yawn. I work in ministry and see fear pour out of Catholics in such a way it goes beyond reason. How can the majority of Catholics who trust the Lord have so much gut-wrenching fear about dying?
Answer: they don't trust the Lord because they don't know Him. The Catholic church has been a life-long stumbling block to them regarding God's love and grace. Its that simple. Quote all the doctrines and scholars you want; I'm in the trenches with these people; they are my witnesses to what I share here.
Answer: they don't trust the Lord because they don't know Him. The Catholic church has been a life-long stumbling block to them regarding God's love and grace. Its that simple. Quote all the doctrines and scholars you want; I'm in the trenches with these people; they are my witnesses to what I share here.
...continued 150 Reasons Why I Am Catholic, by Dave Armstrong
61. The founders of Protestantism denied, and Calvinists today deny, the reality of human free will (Luther's favorite book was his Bondage of the Will). This is both contrary to the constant premise of the Bible, Christian Tradition, and common sense.
62. Classical Protestantism had a deficient view of the Fall of Man, thinking that the result was "total depravity." According to Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, and Calvinists, man could only do evil of his own volition, and had no free will to do good. He now has a "sin nature." Catholicism believes that, in a mysterious way, man cooperates with the grace which always precedes all good actions. In Catholicism, man's nature still retains some good, although he has a propensity to sin ("concupiscence").
63. Classical Protestantism, and Calvinism today, make God the author of evil. He supposedly wills that men do evil and violate His precepts without having any free will to do so. This is blasphemous, and turns God into a demon.
66. Classical Protestantism (esp. Luther), and Calvinism, due to their false view of the Fall, deny the efficacy and capacity of human reason to know God to some extent (both sides agree that revelation and grace are also necessary), and oppose it to God and faith, contrary to Christian Tradition and the Bible (Mk 12:28; Lk 10:27; Jn 20:24-29; Acts 1:3; Acts 17:2, Acts 17:17,Acts 17:22-34; Acts 19:8). The best Protestant apologists today simply hearken back to the Catholic heritage of St. Aquinas, St. Augustine, and many other great thinkers.
67. Pentecostal or charismatic Protestantism places much too high an emphasis on spiritual experience, not balancing it properly with reason, the Bible, and Tradition (including the authority of the Church to pronounce on the validity of "private revelations").
68. Other Protestants (e.g., many Baptists) deny that spiritual gifts such as healing are present in the current age (supposedly they ceased with the apostles).
69. Protestantism has contradictory views of church government, or ecclesiology (episcopal, Presbyterian, congregational, or no collective authority at all), thus making discipline, unity and order impossible. Some sects even claim to have "apostles" or "prophets" among them, with all the accompanying abuses of authority resulting therefrom.
70. Protestantism (esp. evangelicalism) has an undue fascination for the "end of the world," which has led to unbiblical date-setting (Mt 24:30-44; Mt 25:13; Lk 12:39-40) and much human tragedy among those who are taken in by such false prophecies.
71. Evangelicalism's over-emphasis on the "imminent end" of the age has often led to a certain "pie-in-the sky" mentality, to the detriment of social, political, ethical, and economic sensibilities here on earth.
72. Protestant thought has the defining characteristic of being "dichotomous," i.e., it separates ideas into more or less exclusive and mutually-hostile camps, when in fact many of the dichotomies are simply complementary rather than contradictory. Protestantism is "either-or," whereas Catholicism takes a "both-and" approach. Examples follow:
73. Protestantism pits the Word (the Bible, preaching) against sacraments.
74. Protestantism sets up inner devotion and piety against the Liturgy.
75. Protestantism opposes spontaneous worship to form prayers.
76. Protestantism separates the Bible from the Church.
77. Protestantism creates the false dichotomy of Bible vs. Tradition.
78. Protestantism pits Tradition against the Holy Spirit.
79. Protestantism considers Church authority and individual liberty and conscience contradictory.
80. Protestantism (esp. Luther) sets up the Old Testament against the New Testament, even though Jesus did not do so (Mt 5:17-19; Mk 7:8-11; Lk 24:27; Lk 24:44; Jn 5:45-47).
61. The founders of Protestantism denied, and Calvinists today deny, the reality of human free will (Luther's favorite book was his Bondage of the Will). This is both contrary to the constant premise of the Bible, Christian Tradition, and common sense.
62. Classical Protestantism had a deficient view of the Fall of Man, thinking that the result was "total depravity." According to Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, and Calvinists, man could only do evil of his own volition, and had no free will to do good. He now has a "sin nature." Catholicism believes that, in a mysterious way, man cooperates with the grace which always precedes all good actions. In Catholicism, man's nature still retains some good, although he has a propensity to sin ("concupiscence").
63. Classical Protestantism, and Calvinism today, make God the author of evil. He supposedly wills that men do evil and violate His precepts without having any free will to do so. This is blasphemous, and turns God into a demon.
66. Classical Protestantism (esp. Luther), and Calvinism, due to their false view of the Fall, deny the efficacy and capacity of human reason to know God to some extent (both sides agree that revelation and grace are also necessary), and oppose it to God and faith, contrary to Christian Tradition and the Bible (Mk 12:28; Lk 10:27; Jn 20:24-29; Acts 1:3; Acts 17:2, Acts 17:17,Acts 17:22-34; Acts 19:8). The best Protestant apologists today simply hearken back to the Catholic heritage of St. Aquinas, St. Augustine, and many other great thinkers.
67. Pentecostal or charismatic Protestantism places much too high an emphasis on spiritual experience, not balancing it properly with reason, the Bible, and Tradition (including the authority of the Church to pronounce on the validity of "private revelations").
68. Other Protestants (e.g., many Baptists) deny that spiritual gifts such as healing are present in the current age (supposedly they ceased with the apostles).
69. Protestantism has contradictory views of church government, or ecclesiology (episcopal, Presbyterian, congregational, or no collective authority at all), thus making discipline, unity and order impossible. Some sects even claim to have "apostles" or "prophets" among them, with all the accompanying abuses of authority resulting therefrom.
70. Protestantism (esp. evangelicalism) has an undue fascination for the "end of the world," which has led to unbiblical date-setting (Mt 24:30-44; Mt 25:13; Lk 12:39-40) and much human tragedy among those who are taken in by such false prophecies.
71. Evangelicalism's over-emphasis on the "imminent end" of the age has often led to a certain "pie-in-the sky" mentality, to the detriment of social, political, ethical, and economic sensibilities here on earth.
72. Protestant thought has the defining characteristic of being "dichotomous," i.e., it separates ideas into more or less exclusive and mutually-hostile camps, when in fact many of the dichotomies are simply complementary rather than contradictory. Protestantism is "either-or," whereas Catholicism takes a "both-and" approach. Examples follow:
73. Protestantism pits the Word (the Bible, preaching) against sacraments.
74. Protestantism sets up inner devotion and piety against the Liturgy.
75. Protestantism opposes spontaneous worship to form prayers.
76. Protestantism separates the Bible from the Church.
77. Protestantism creates the false dichotomy of Bible vs. Tradition.
78. Protestantism pits Tradition against the Holy Spirit.
79. Protestantism considers Church authority and individual liberty and conscience contradictory.
80. Protestantism (esp. Luther) sets up the Old Testament against the New Testament, even though Jesus did not do so (Mt 5:17-19; Mk 7:8-11; Lk 24:27; Lk 24:44; Jn 5:45-47).
Two points:
1. Catholicism is not a denomination. It is a religion.
2. Good churches---not necessarily denominations---are those who know that they don't have it all down pat. Their pastors teach the people that they must be like Bereans and search out in scripture what is being taught, whether it aligns with God's word or not. If not, throw it out.
The early churches met in homes and when they came together they would sing, and instruments are typically used by Jews in worship (and so was dance!), so instruments are used today to bring glory and honour to God.
Nonsense. When the assembly gets too big for a house, a bigger building is the answer. Also, when there is a larger group, it is a good rule of thumb---not a doctrine---to ask people who would like to give their lives over to Jesus Christ to make themselves known.
This is all just down to good, common sense thinking---with a good purpose. Nothing religious. Nothing that should cause dissension or separation, unless people want to be factious, and then they are hurting the cause of Christ.
I am accurate in the matters I discuss, and hope that your sense of accuracy means that you don't become one of those useless "devil's advocates". It just causes more dissension.
Good thing Holy Spirit interprets scripture to me. All good, all supported!
.
L
Most of the last several posts have been slurs, innuendos and/or outright lies.
Whatever I have added to the anger in this thread I repent of.
IF I've added anything of worth, I am glad of it.
Would it be possible for everyone to take a deep breath, calm down, and discuss one topic at a time? A 50+ cut paste is not helpful to a stupid man such as myself. Maybe women with their parallel processor brain structure can keep 50+ conversations going, but God created the male brain as a serial device, as evidenced by the smaller corpus callosum so I fall apart trying to follow more than 3 points at one time. This thread is now a Gordian knot and somebody needs to cut it,
Whatever I have added to the anger in this thread I repent of.
IF I've added anything of worth, I am glad of it.
Would it be possible for everyone to take a deep breath, calm down, and discuss one topic at a time? A 50+ cut paste is not helpful to a stupid man such as myself. Maybe women with their parallel processor brain structure can keep 50+ conversations going, but God created the male brain as a serial device, as evidenced by the smaller corpus callosum so I fall apart trying to follow more than 3 points at one time. This thread is now a Gordian knot and somebody needs to cut it,
I agree, and I have found among the Catholics I know and have spoken with that they simply are not taught about the assurance God gives us about our salvation. They tell us that there is no assurance of salvation or one's reward. This is how the development of purgatory was able to take root. They do not believe in the perfect plan of God that Jesus' blood is sufficient in erasing their sin. Consequently we have millions of people who have no confidence in Christ (but a false confidence in their religion that dictates what to believe) or a hope of the Kingdom. This translates naturally into a fear of death and a very poor response to the death of loved ones. Hence the bitter weeping I see at the funeral homes of relatives of Catholic people. No hope.
.
.
First, that has nothing to do with my answer. Second, you are trying to tell me that Catholics have a greater fear of dying than Protestants. Ridiculous. Everybody has some fear about dying and it cannot be quantified, measured or compared.
You don't know the hearts of anyone, Catholic or not, unless you are God. Just because a person claims to have a Catholic background does not mean they are devout and practicing. Your judgments are harsh.
To argue that Catholicism is untrue because it doesn't transform the lives of those who don't practice it, is like arguing that aspirin doesn't work because it doesn't relieve the headaches of those who don't take it.
Try to remember that many people are Catholic by default. If you ask them what they are, they'll say, "Oh, I'm Catholic." But what they mean is, "My ancestors were Catholic." It's more an ethnicity than a religion for some people. It's what they are, not what they believe.
Actually, it's an individual (not a church) that's supposed to produce good fruit. A church can only proclaim the Gospel and introduce people to the One Who alone can make them bear fruit, but it can't make people believe its teachings, and it can't make people live its life. Good fruit, then, is how we tell if an individual is a faithful disciple. The fact is, you can find plenty of good fruit in the Catholic Church, and you can find plenty of good fruit in the various Protestant churches, too. And that's because the secret to bearing fruit is to have a living, vital relationship with Jesus Christ, who is the source of all grace and life. And because the Catholic Church has been endowed with the fullness of the means of grace that Christ established, a Catholic is able to have the closest possible relationship with Jesus, including even the reality of physical communion with Him.
But notice I say, "is able to have," not "is guaranteed to have." There are indeed plenty of people who call themselves Catholic, but who refuse to believe the Church's teachings, refuse to obey its precepts, and refuse to live the life it calls them to live. Not surprisingly, these people aren't magically converted into living saints just by walking through the Church door. So, if you want to look for fruit, be sure you look on the tree. You can't expect to find fruit on the dried-up branches that have severed themselves from the tree, and that are strewn all about it. I'll be the first to admit that the Catholic faith doesn't work if you don't practice it. It doesn't work by osmosis, or by genetics, or by proximity. You actually have to believe it, and live it. You have to have a living relationship with the Lord Jesus in order to bear fruit, and many "Catholics" have rejected that relationship, despite being given every opportunity to embrace it.
How can the Catholic Church's claims be true when so many Catholics are so dead?
The Church only claims to announce the Good News of Jesus Christ, and it invites everyone to embrace the life of grace He offers. It does not claim that people who spurn its teachings and reject its life will be transformed into faithful disciples anyway. Nor does it claim that being born to Catholic parents guarantees that a person will inherit his parents' faith. If you want to see the fruit of the Catholic faith, you have to look at the people who are committed to the faith, who take it seriously and put it into practice every day. It's pointless to look at those who are cultural Catholics only, who say they're Catholic if you ask them, but who don't try to live the life, even though they may go to Mass out of habit, or guilt, or whatever. People aren't magically transformed into good Christians just by walking into a Catholic church (even if they do it every week). Repentance and conversion of heart are the keys to the Christian life. Without them, everything else is sterile and false, whether one calls oneself "Catholic" or not.
I've known such people. It's truly sad. But to compare the best Evangelicals with the worst Catholics is hardly fair. If you want to see the real fruit of the Catholic faith, look at the people who actually put it into practice. As you know, the Catholic Church has produced some of the greatest, most on-fire saints the world has ever known. Some of them converted whole nations to Christ. We still marvel at their faith and holiness many centuries after they died.
you're comparing the best Evangelicals with the worst Catholics. But I do think it's easier to be a nominal Catholic than to be a nominal Evangelical. Catholicism is an embodied faith. It's very physical, expressing itself through signs and meaningful rituals and practices. Ideally, those practices are joyful ways of expressing the interior reality of God's grace in our lives. They give form and substance to the reality of our faith. But if that reality isn't there, it's still possible to go through the physical motions of the faith because of habit, or whatever. In other words, it's possible to mistake faith's expression for faith itself, as if the outward signs of our faith, and not the reality they are meant to express, are what's important. That does happen, and it's a shame, because going through the motions won't get anybody to Heaven.
On the other hand, Evangelicalism is largely devoid of physicality. It is a religion almost exclusively characterized by intellectual commitment. Therefore, if you don't have that commitment, there's nothing else there, so you leave. This is good in the sense that it focuses on the primary importance of belief and conversion of heart, and because it's more difficult to fool yourself into thinking you're a "good Christian" when you're not, but Evangelicals really are missing something by not having a rich physical tradition with which to express their faith. When you combine real interior faith with meaningful exterior expression, the result is incredible, believe me. And the best Catholics, like the best Evangelicals, know that a personal relationship with Jesus is the goal of the Christian life. We just have a whole lot of ways to express and experience that relationship...
How Can Catholicism Be True When Catholics Are So Dead?
You don't know the hearts of anyone, Catholic or not, unless you are God. Just because a person claims to have a Catholic background does not mean they are devout and practicing. Your judgments are harsh.
To argue that Catholicism is untrue because it doesn't transform the lives of those who don't practice it, is like arguing that aspirin doesn't work because it doesn't relieve the headaches of those who don't take it.
Try to remember that many people are Catholic by default. If you ask them what they are, they'll say, "Oh, I'm Catholic." But what they mean is, "My ancestors were Catholic." It's more an ethnicity than a religion for some people. It's what they are, not what they believe.
Actually, it's an individual (not a church) that's supposed to produce good fruit. A church can only proclaim the Gospel and introduce people to the One Who alone can make them bear fruit, but it can't make people believe its teachings, and it can't make people live its life. Good fruit, then, is how we tell if an individual is a faithful disciple. The fact is, you can find plenty of good fruit in the Catholic Church, and you can find plenty of good fruit in the various Protestant churches, too. And that's because the secret to bearing fruit is to have a living, vital relationship with Jesus Christ, who is the source of all grace and life. And because the Catholic Church has been endowed with the fullness of the means of grace that Christ established, a Catholic is able to have the closest possible relationship with Jesus, including even the reality of physical communion with Him.
But notice I say, "is able to have," not "is guaranteed to have." There are indeed plenty of people who call themselves Catholic, but who refuse to believe the Church's teachings, refuse to obey its precepts, and refuse to live the life it calls them to live. Not surprisingly, these people aren't magically converted into living saints just by walking through the Church door. So, if you want to look for fruit, be sure you look on the tree. You can't expect to find fruit on the dried-up branches that have severed themselves from the tree, and that are strewn all about it. I'll be the first to admit that the Catholic faith doesn't work if you don't practice it. It doesn't work by osmosis, or by genetics, or by proximity. You actually have to believe it, and live it. You have to have a living relationship with the Lord Jesus in order to bear fruit, and many "Catholics" have rejected that relationship, despite being given every opportunity to embrace it.
How can the Catholic Church's claims be true when so many Catholics are so dead?
The Church only claims to announce the Good News of Jesus Christ, and it invites everyone to embrace the life of grace He offers. It does not claim that people who spurn its teachings and reject its life will be transformed into faithful disciples anyway. Nor does it claim that being born to Catholic parents guarantees that a person will inherit his parents' faith. If you want to see the fruit of the Catholic faith, you have to look at the people who are committed to the faith, who take it seriously and put it into practice every day. It's pointless to look at those who are cultural Catholics only, who say they're Catholic if you ask them, but who don't try to live the life, even though they may go to Mass out of habit, or guilt, or whatever. People aren't magically transformed into good Christians just by walking into a Catholic church (even if they do it every week). Repentance and conversion of heart are the keys to the Christian life. Without them, everything else is sterile and false, whether one calls oneself "Catholic" or not.
I've known such people. It's truly sad. But to compare the best Evangelicals with the worst Catholics is hardly fair. If you want to see the real fruit of the Catholic faith, look at the people who actually put it into practice. As you know, the Catholic Church has produced some of the greatest, most on-fire saints the world has ever known. Some of them converted whole nations to Christ. We still marvel at their faith and holiness many centuries after they died.
you're comparing the best Evangelicals with the worst Catholics. But I do think it's easier to be a nominal Catholic than to be a nominal Evangelical. Catholicism is an embodied faith. It's very physical, expressing itself through signs and meaningful rituals and practices. Ideally, those practices are joyful ways of expressing the interior reality of God's grace in our lives. They give form and substance to the reality of our faith. But if that reality isn't there, it's still possible to go through the physical motions of the faith because of habit, or whatever. In other words, it's possible to mistake faith's expression for faith itself, as if the outward signs of our faith, and not the reality they are meant to express, are what's important. That does happen, and it's a shame, because going through the motions won't get anybody to Heaven.
On the other hand, Evangelicalism is largely devoid of physicality. It is a religion almost exclusively characterized by intellectual commitment. Therefore, if you don't have that commitment, there's nothing else there, so you leave. This is good in the sense that it focuses on the primary importance of belief and conversion of heart, and because it's more difficult to fool yourself into thinking you're a "good Christian" when you're not, but Evangelicals really are missing something by not having a rich physical tradition with which to express their faith. When you combine real interior faith with meaningful exterior expression, the result is incredible, believe me. And the best Catholics, like the best Evangelicals, know that a personal relationship with Jesus is the goal of the Christian life. We just have a whole lot of ways to express and experience that relationship...
How Can Catholicism Be True When Catholics Are So Dead?
Evangelicalism is Spiritual epostle. This is why you cannot understand the True Christian Faith that is based on Faith only and not Works.
Physical tradition is nothing more then trying to Work for your Salvation epostle.
Please read Ephesians 2:8-9.
Ephesians 2:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
We HAVE been saved by Grace through Faith epostle. This verse puts Salvation in the present tense, not future tense. Also God says we cannot Work for our Salvation.
Evangelicals are Spiritual. We are in the Spirit. We do not try to Work for our Salvation by trying to please God by doing physical Traditions by our our Works.
This is the point you epostle and fordman are both missing. There is nothing we can do to Work for or earn our Salvation.
Physical tradition is nothing more then trying to Work for your Salvation epostle.
Please read Ephesians 2:8-9.
Ephesians 2:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
We HAVE been saved by Grace through Faith epostle. This verse puts Salvation in the present tense, not future tense. Also God says we cannot Work for our Salvation.
Evangelicals are Spiritual. We are in the Spirit. We do not try to Work for our Salvation by trying to please God by doing physical Traditions by our our Works.
This is the point you epostle and fordman are both missing. There is nothing we can do to Work for or earn our Salvation.
The question remains. Are we saved by the blood of Jesus Christ? Is Gods grace completely sufficient to save us from our sins? Is Gods word sufficient to teach us of Gods grace and the atonement made through the blood of Christ?
John declared Christ to be the Word of God made flesh and dwelling among us. Jesus prayed the Father to sanctify the believers through the word of God because the word of God is truth.
Salvation requires a correct view and doctrine on soteriology.
Man cannot will himself to be Christian.
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
John declared Christ to be the Word of God made flesh and dwelling among us. Jesus prayed the Father to sanctify the believers through the word of God because the word of God is truth.
Salvation requires a correct view and doctrine on soteriology.
Man cannot will himself to be Christian.
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I find it astounding fordman that you condemn the "sinners prayer" because you cannot find it in the Scriptures, but yet you promote people into praying the "Hail Mary" prayer which is not in the Scriptures!
Its like eating your cake and having it also.
You cannot condemn one form of prayer which is in the Scriptures and praise a prayer to Mary that is not in the Scriptures.
This is what Catholicism is all about. Rejecting what God says in the Scriptures to follow what men say in the Catholic Church.
This is the essence of the Catholic Faith.
Its a man made faith made up to tickle the ears of people who want to enter into Heaven on their own Works.
Its like eating your cake and having it also.
You cannot condemn one form of prayer which is in the Scriptures and praise a prayer to Mary that is not in the Scriptures.
This is what Catholicism is all about. Rejecting what God says in the Scriptures to follow what men say in the Catholic Church.
This is the essence of the Catholic Faith.
Its a man made faith made up to tickle the ears of people who want to enter into Heaven on their own Works.
According to Catholicism Grace and Faith is NOT enough to cleanse a person of their sins. Catholicism teaches a Catholic has to spend time in Purgatory, WORKING off the stain of his sins that God was powerless to remove from them.
Catholicism is all about the Catholic, by his own Works and effort and power, cleansing himself of sin and giving himself by his works his Salvation.
Catholicism is all about the Catholic, by his own Works and effort and power, cleansing himself of sin and giving himself by his works his Salvation.
Dude, don't tell me I don't know the hearts of people. I work in hospice and my patients confide in me. The majority of Catholics I visit either suffer from impending doom, significant spiritual unease or they're flat out numb because the Catholic church failed them. I share the fullness of God's grace with them; sometimes it gets through but sadly far too many times these people are damaged beyond repair, and its sickening!
Take Jesus off the Cross and focus on His triumphant victory over death via His Resurrection!
Take Jesus off the Cross and focus on His triumphant victory over death via His Resurrection!