Can a christian lose their salvation

[JesusIsAll]

Gay in Britian can mean "carefree"....i'm sure Peter was using it in with that thought in mind.

Yes, there was the "rosy" expansion. It usually gets back to careful examination of the context, doesn't it? Problem I have with message boards, especially if somebody has their own theology not quite found in the Bible, is seeing something like, "You sound gay," the page down key usually follows. If somebody is wrong, fundamentally, sometimes there's nothing more to read, it becomes pointless. Start a paragraph with error, the rest of it isn't likely to edify.

 

[PeterJens]

Gay in Britian can mean "carefree"....i'm sure Peter was using it in with that thought in mind.

Gay actually means being super effeminate, overly sensitive, trying to make things pretty and nicer than they really are.
Now it just so happens the homosexual people do this very well.

If you want to take it as a slur or insult that is your miss-understanding. I think hyper-grace is doing exactly that.

All the aggressive sides of faith are gone, all the judgementalism, law, hard side and just the soft accepting side.
A God who raised Jericho to the ground and killed everyone, is actually a pacificist and death is not actually down to Him at all, it is evil that is at fault. Following Jesus is now the way to success, wealth and health with eternity rolling on forever.

So why did God judge Jericho or Sodom and Gomorrah? Because of sin.

Has the Lord changed? The problem is you are saying Jesus is not the same as the Father when he declares He is the same, they are one. This demonstrates what hyper-grace is trying to create, a compromised faith where everything awkward is a perversion of the faith, including scripture.

 

[PeterJens]

Dude, You just slandard a person, which is not very christ like, and Now you made yourself look foolish.

You guys are blind deaf and dumb. It must be your theology that is changing how you deal with truth.

I can invent my own god, and put what attributes I want on him and make things work out so it looks nice.

But that is not how God works. Gay people are some of the nicest people I have met, some very caring and sensitive to a degree others are not as perceptive. Now if people are behaving in a similar fashion I think it is a very apt description. Now the hyper-grace group are happy to have homosexuals in leadership and defining what is moral and what is not. So this tendency is not surprising.

Now if this a slander or insult, I am sorry you take it that way, because in your moral position there is nothing wrong with being gay, or expressing things in a gay way. Or are you actually hypocrites.

 

[Euphemia]

Now the hyper-grace group are happy to have homosexuals in leadership and defining what is moral and what is not.

That's just stupid talk.

 

[Gr8grace]

Gay actually means being super effeminate, overly sensitive, trying to make things pretty and nicer than they really are.
Now it just so happens the homosexual people do this very well.

If you want to take it as a slur or insult that is your miss-understanding. I think hyper-grace is doing exactly that.

All the aggressive sides of faith are gone, all the judgementalism, law, hard side and just the soft accepting side.
A God who raised Jericho to the ground and killed everyone, is actually a pacificist and death is not actually down to Him at all, it is evil that is at fault. Following Jesus is now the way to success, wealth and health with eternity rolling on forever.

So why did God judge Jericho or Sodom and Gomorrah? Because of sin.

Has the Lord changed? The problem is you are saying Jesus is not the same as the Father when he declares He is the same, they are one. This demonstrates what hyper-grace is trying to create, a compromised faith where everything awkward is a perversion of the faith, including scripture.

I wish you could see that the "faith" you are promoting at this time still has all the judgement,hardness,wrath of God in it.

It is a way that seems right, but it doesn't rely completely on Christ's finished work on the Cross.

Why did God Judge Christ? because of sin.............ALL sin.

 

[Grace777x70]

You missed entirely what I was saying..I was standing up for you saying that I did not think you were calling the poster a actual gay person....a homosexual....that most likely your meaning is different then in America because words can have different meanings in Britain.

Gay actually means being super effeminate, overly sensitive, trying to make things pretty and nicer than they really are.
Now it just so happens the homosexual people do this very well.

If you want to take it as a slur or insult that is your miss-understanding. I think hyper-grace is doing exactly that.

All the aggressive sides of faith are gone, all the judgementalism, law, hard side and just the soft accepting side.
A God who raised Jericho to the ground and killed everyone, is actually a pacificist and death is not actually down to Him at all, it is evil that is at fault. Following Jesus is now the way to success, wealth and health with eternity rolling on forever.

So why did God judge Jericho or Sodom and Gomorrah? Because of sin.

Has the Lord changed? The problem is you are saying Jesus is not the same as the Father when he declares He is the same, they are one. This demonstrates what hyper-grace is trying to create, a compromised faith where everything awkward is a perversion of the faith, including scripture.

 

[PeterJens]

So does God know or not?

I think you have miss-understood my point. Until you act on your beliefs they mean nothing. It is the action that makes faith real.

So God, you and me do not know if someones faith is real, or the person themselves until they act upon it.

It is like saying is a person righteous or not. Righteousness is defined based on actions. If you have done nothing wrong you are righteous, or at least that appears the theory. I think the reality is we are only righteous in communion with God, trusting Him and having faith in Him.

The point I am making is a simple dilemma. Does something exist before it has happened? If it has not happened nothing is aware of it or can discover it unless you can see into the future and see it having. But does something actually exist until it happens, or without foreknowledge can it be predicted. I do not know. Does God say he can do this, is it inevitable?

If the whole of heaven was inevitable, the God could just fast forward and create it all without all the hassel in between.

Does the Lord know who are His, yes he does, but so what.

The point I am exploring is faith only exists in a real sense when actions are done as a result of the faith.

Interestingly grace7x77 wrote faith had no merit, yet Abraham believed God and it was merited to him as righteousness. Now this does not fit his model so silence.

Is Abraham in Hell, along with Moses, Elijah and all those who were under the old covenant?
If not how were they justified, counted as acceptable? Abraham had no law, he had only a promise and an approach to God. Paul is arguing this relationship justified him, just like faith in Jesus justifies us. The result of this faith was righteousness in his behaviour. But was he justified as ok or is this more difficult to define?
Enoch knew God, and was taken. The priest Melchizedek was a priest of God, yet again before the law was given.

The whole debate is about righteousness empowered by relationship. You cannot have the relationship without walking in righteousness or desiring to do so. Hyper-grace is full of people who believe this is impossible, failed believers who have given up, and only compromise is the way forward.

Does hyper-grace theology add up? No because it polarises ideas based on you are acceptable as you are, and you will just be able to walk in the right way without repentance, confession or obedience.

It is obvious we will never agree these steps, and hyper-grace is a new faith, outside of traditional christianity.
All they can do is condemn the expression of christian faith over the last 200 years and claim they now have the exclusive revelation. In reality if they cannot walk righteously, they will evaporate like movements before them. I will not hold my breath, but nothing has convinced me they have a clue about reality or life to actually have any real effect at all.

 

[Grace777x70]

I have no idea where you come up with the stuff that you say. We grace-believers live by faith....faith in His righteousness....faith in Christ and in His finished work for our behalf..we live by the gospel of the grace of Christ.



Romans 1:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Notice it is the righteousness of God that is revealed....not self-righteousness through good works....holy living..etc..these are all good things but they are not righteousness within themselves....we live by faith in His righteousness

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

It is very obvious you have no idea what grace-believers in the gospel of Christ are actually saying and this has to be at the very least the 30th time we have told you the same things.......there is something drastically wrong here with what you are hearing.

.

Interestingly grace7x77 wrote faith had no merit, yet Abraham believed God and it was merited to him as righteousness. Now this does not fit his model so silence.

 

[Euphemia]

Does hyper-grace theology add up? No because it polarises ideas based on you are acceptable as you are, and you will just be able to walk in the right way without repentance, confession or obedience.

There is no such thing as hyper-grace...but grace adds up to the wonderful truth that we are acceptable to God by our faith in Jesus. We are washed in His blood...and we are obedient to His word. Repentance has already taken place, and confession is ongoing.

So...what's yer beef?


.

 

[PeterJens]

It is very obvious you have no idea what grace-believers in the gospel of Christ are actually saying

Let me ask people simply, if faith has no merit yet scripture says faith is merited as righteousness, there is an obvious contradiction. But one thing I know about brainwashed people is when the thoughts go outside there small logical cycle it just loops back again as if nothing has changed.

The basic thought is Jesus has done everything and we do nothing so we are merely vessels of this grace. We have nothing to do other than learn to be robots of this new life. Trouble is this has never happened in all of christian history.

In affluent west with lots of cash and easy morals and peoples being quite nice it is easy to preach everything is fine, just slide on down. If persecution comes, times go hard, reality is truth and righteousness are life and death issues, the churches empty.

 

[Grace777x70]

....I can't make heads nor tails out of what you are saying....other then something about faith has no merit ( I have no idea what is meant by that)...then we are robots because we have nothing to do.......and the west is bad because of affluence ......you seem to have a bunch of confusing thoughts jumbled together...

sorry Peter..I just don't have a clue what your trying to say........

 

[PeterJens]

There is no such thing as hyper-grace... So...what's yer beef?

How do you feel about good works? Or walking in righteousness, actually having morals and being a good example?

Do you take this is just legalism and self justification or the fruit of the Spirit working in your heart?

What I find mildly amusing is the idea I have a beef when actually it was me who was attacked.
I believe in following Jesus, walking in obedience, doing good works which flow from my heart. I do not doubt Jesus and his acceptance of me, I do doubt my ability to approach things the right way, and I spend time in communion with the Lord to know His will and listen to where I need to work next in my life.

There is one simple step to start following Jesus. Believing in Him. As part of believing in Jesus a process of repentance, confession and prayer and praise follows. As the light dawns as to our nature and Jesus's desire, we change and are transformed. But all of this has been called carnal, evil, and wrong by your group.

It is very late and you have your own versions of everything. Over time I will document what you guys truly believe and express it and compare this to christian faith. They are not the same but a real redefinition of ideas and language, but with no real reality or measuring behaviour and empowering your followers to change, just compromise. As many of your group have declared there is little difference between you and Mormons.

 

[Euphemia]

How do you feel about good works? Or walking in righteousness, actually having morals and being a good example?

Good things.

Do you take this is just legalism and self justification or the fruit of the Spirit working in your heart?

When Christians behave in these ways in the new natural way they have been changed to be, they prove that they are regenerated people.

What I find mildly amusing is the idea I have a beef when actually it was me who was attacked.
I believe in following Jesus, walking in obedience, doing good works which flow from my heart. I do not doubt Jesus and his acceptance of me, I do doubt my ability to approach things the right way, and I spend time in communion with the Lord to know His will and listen to where I need to work next in my life.

All admirable.

There is one simple step to start following Jesus. Believing in Him. As part of believing in Jesus a process of repentance, confession and prayer and praise follows. As the light dawns as to our nature and Jesus's desire, we change and are transformed. But all of this has been called carnal, evil, and wrong by your group.

That isn't what is carnal. What's carnal is striving to meet some standard by works, rather than resting in the grace given by God to live according to His ways.

It is very late and you have your own versions of everything. Over time I will document what you guys truly believe and express it and compare this to christian faith. They are not the same but a real redefinition of ideas and language, but with no real reality or measuring behaviour and empowering your followers to change, just compromise. As many of your group have declared there is little difference between you and Mormons.

You waste your time, as we know what and whom we believe because we are waking by faith with Jesus Christ. You have seen fit to drive a wedge between your brothers and sisters in Christ who have had some measure of revelation about God's grace that dear Paul desired the world to have.

I am a born again Christian and do not belong to any group but the Body of Christ, and you need to back off on your insults.


.

 

[Gr8grace]

I think you have miss-understood my point. Until you act on your beliefs they mean nothing. It is the action that makes faith real.

So God, you and me do not know if someones faith is real, or the person themselves until they act upon it.

It is like saying is a person righteous or not. Righteousness is defined based on actions. If you have done nothing wrong you are righteous, or at least that appears the theory. I think the reality is we are only righteous in communion with God, trusting Him and having faith in Him.

The point I am making is a simple dilemma. Does something exist before it has happened? If it has not happened nothing is aware of it or can discover it unless you can see into the future and see it having. But does something actually exist until it happens, or without foreknowledge can it be predicted. I do not know. Does God say he can do this, is it inevitable?

If the whole of heaven was inevitable, the God could just fast forward and create it all without all the hassel in between.

Does the Lord know who are His, yes he does, but so what.

The point I am exploring is faith only exists in a real sense when actions are done as a result of the faith.

Interestingly grace7x77 wrote faith had no merit, yet Abraham believed God and it was merited to him as righteousness. Now this does not fit his model so silence.

Is Abraham in Hell, along with Moses, Elijah and all those who were under the old covenant?
If not how were they justified, counted as acceptable? Abraham had no law, he had only a promise and an approach to God. Paul is arguing this relationship justified him, just like faith in Jesus justifies us. The result of this faith was righteousness in his behaviour. But was he justified as ok or is this more difficult to define?
Enoch knew God, and was taken. The priest Melchizedek was a priest of God, yet again before the law was given.

The whole debate is about righteousness empowered by relationship. You cannot have the relationship without walking in righteousness or desiring to do so. Hyper-grace is full of people who believe this is impossible, failed believers who have given up, and only compromise is the way forward.

Does hyper-grace theology add up? No because it polarises ideas based on you are acceptable as you are, and you will just be able to walk in the right way without repentance, confession or obedience.

It is obvious we will never agree these steps, and hyper-grace is a new faith, outside of traditional christianity.
All they can do is condemn the expression of christian faith over the last 200 years and claim they now have the exclusive revelation. In reality if they cannot walk righteously, they will evaporate like movements before them. I will not hold my breath, but nothing has convinced me they have a clue about reality or life to actually have any real effect at all.

I said faith has no merit. And that is in and of itself. Christ has the merit. He saved us based upon our choice to believe in Him. My belief didn't have the saving power, Christ has the saving power.


Peter it is why we can go apostate, be faithless, fall from grace, revile Christ..............and still be saved, because the merit in salvation is CHRIST and CHRIST alone. NOT our faith.


If we are faithless, He remains faithful. Because He cannot deny Himself. The moment we believe HE makes us a part of HIS body.

Acts 16:31, read it and believe it my friend.

 

[Goodnewsman]

LET THE CHURCH SAY AMEN!!!!

You guys are blind deaf and dumb. It must be your theology that is changing how you deal with truth.

I can invent my own god, and put what attributes I want on him and make things work out so it looks nice.

But that is not how God works. Gay people are some of the nicest people I have met, some very caring and sensitive to a degree others are not as perceptive. Now if people are behaving in a similar fashion I think it is a very apt description. Now the hyper-grace group are happy to have homosexuals in leadership and defining what is moral and what is not. So this tendency is not surprising.

Now if this a slander or insult, I am sorry you take it that way, because in your moral position there is nothing wrong with being gay, or expressing things in a gay way. Or are you actually hypocrites.

 

[Goodnewsman]

with all due respect sir, you had to have help getting this spiritually insane, there is no way you could have gotten this way on your own.........APOSTATE AND STILL YOUR SAVED??? FALL FROM GRACE.....STILL SAVED?? go ahead and rip John 15 from the bible then. this is ridiculously crazy stuff.

sounds like you believe suicide is ok as long as its a Christian doing the killing.[

QUOTE=Gr8grace;2438226]I said faith has no merit. And that is in and of itself. Christ has the merit. He saved us based upon our choice to believe in Him. My belief didn't have the saving power, Christ has the saving power.


Peter it is why we can go apostate, be faithless, fall from grace, revile Christ..............and still be saved, because the merit in salvation is CHRIST and CHRIST alone. NOT our faith.




If we are faithless, He remains faithful. Because He cannot deny Himself. The moment we believe HE makes us a part of HIS body.

Acts 16:31, read it and believe it my friend.[/QUOTE]

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I said faith has no merit. And that is in and of itself. Christ has the merit. He saved us based upon our choice to believe in Him. My belief didn't have the saving power, Christ has the saving power.

Peter it is why we can go apostate, be faithless, fall from grace, revile Christ..............and still be saved, because the merit in salvation is CHRIST and CHRIST alone. NOT our faith.
If we are faithless, He remains faithful. Because He cannot deny Himself. The moment we believe HE makes us a part of HIS body.
Acts 16:31, read it and believe it my friend.

This is what the gnostics in the early church period believed. Here's what Ireneaus said about them in Against Heresies. His witness is important because he was a disciple of Polycarp who was a disciple of the apostle John. So he would have had a good understanding of the true faith because he was only one generation removed from John's teachings.

Animal men, again, are instructed in animal things; such men, namely, as are established by their works, and by a mere faith, while they have not perfect knowledge. We of the Church, [the gnostics] say, are these persons. Wherefore also they maintain that good works are necessary to us, for that otherwise it is impossible we should be saved. But as to themselves, [the gnostics] hold that they shall be entirely and undoubtedly saved, not by means of conduct, but because they are spiritual by nature. For, just as it is impossible that material substance should partake of salvation (since, indeed, they maintain that it is incapable of receiving it), so again it is impossible that spiritual substance (by which they mean themselves) should ever come under the power of corruption, whatever the sort of actions in which they indulged. ... so they affirm that they cannot in any measure suffer hurt, or lose their spiritual substance, whatever the material actions [conduct] in which they may be involved.

...they tell us that it is necessary for us [of the Church] whom they call animal men, and describe as being of the world, to practise continence and good works, that by this means we may attain at length to the intermediate habitation, but that to [the gnostics] who are called "the spiritual and perfect" such a course of conduct is not at all necessary. For it is not conduct of any kind which leads into the Pleroma [heaven], but the seed sent forth thence [from heaven] in a feeble, immature state, and here [on earth] brought to perfection.​

 

[PeterJens]

There are a few things that should ground any human being
1. Their conscience
2. Their love of people close to them
3. Their physical existence and needs
4. Their nature and how they behave

If any faith is true it should support and enhance understanding of all these aspects of life and not detract from them.
Everything we have is from God, a gift, a thing of wonder. Everything has a place and appropriatness.
Jesus, God incarnate, walked this earth in perfection, sinless, and died for our sins, that we might also follow Him.
We are called to demonstrate our victory by the good works we do as fruit of the change within from darkness to light.

 

[Grace777x70]

Christ in us is how we live today and we are to have a foundation in Him..and in Him alone..not our humanistic thinking.

Colossians 2:6-9 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,


Galatians 3:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

 

[ladylynn]

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[TD="width: 100%, align: left"] Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
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[TD="colspan: 3, align: left"] Many a time, people ask me, “Pastor Prince, I know that God’s promises are true, but how can I be sure that His promises will come true in my life?”
My friend, if you want God’s promises to be sure in your life, you cannot depend on yourself. If you depend on yourself—your obedience, goodness, service and even faith—you will not be able to receive God’s promises. But when you depend on God’s grace—His unmerited, unearned, undeserved favor toward you—that is when His promises become sure in your life.
This was true of the woman with the issue of blood. (Matthew 9:20–22) She didn’t go around saying, “I must have faith…I hope that I have enough faith…I will have faith…I will not lose faith.” No, she was only conscious of the grace of Jesus—how He always healed the sick, how powerful He was in raising the dead and how willing He was to use that power for her healing.
She just saw His grace abounding toward her, so much so that she said, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” And when she came behind Jesus and touched the very hem of His garment, she was healed. At that same moment, Jesus stopped, turned around and said to her, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.”

When the woman saw His grace, God saw her faith! And so it was by grace, through faith, that God’s promise became sure in her life.

God wants you to see His grace. And when you see His grace, He sees your faith. God says, “For by grace are you saved through faith.” The Greek word for “saved”, sozo, doesn’t just mean to save from hell, but also to heal, preserve and make whole. So it is by grace that you are made whole, kept healthy, preserved and blessed. It is by grace through faith that God’s promises become sure in your life.

My friend, don’t worry if you feel that you lack faith. Begin to see God’s grace in your situation and He will see that as faith. And because He sees your faith, you will receive the breakthrough you need!

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