Can a christian lose their salvation

[PeterJens]

You scare me!

God does not need proof of anything, He KNOWS if your faith is real or not. before you do one work.

There is a logical problem here. God knows what will happen with my faith, and the fruit it will bring or not bring, so he knows what will happen. Because he can see the future it is the fruit that shows the faith is real. Faith without future fruit is dead. So what you appear to be saying is meaningless and irrelevant.

Your one big issue is works justification hatred. So you have made faith a separate thing to avoid this problem, thereby destroying faith itself. Faith without righteousness is dead, faith without works is dead. Faith without love is dead.

 

[Grace777x70]

Romans 10:2-3 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

 

[PeterJens]

Luke 9:54-56 (NASB)
[SUP]54 [/SUP] When His disciples James and John saw this, they said, "Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?"
[SUP]55 [/SUP] But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of;
[SUP]56 [/SUP] for the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." .

Interesting quote. God did consume many people for rebellion. This was straight rebellion against God among the people.
Annais and Saphara are another example.

But this verse is about unbelievers rejecting Jesus and his authority. The spirit is not there to destroy them.
But the Lord does discipline His own with His ultimate sanction. You do not understand your Lord and the Kingdom you have joined if you do not understand what justice, righteousness and judgement are about.

Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom is no idle idea, it is the foundation of the start of worship and understanding the creator God.

But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.’
Matt 12:36-37

So turning Gods word on its head and calling it lying is not a place to go.

 

[Goodnewsman]

both?
1 John 5:11-12 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

2 John 1:9 (KJV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. (abideth or remaining is something you have to do)

John 15:5-6 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

this proves you and i must abide or remain if not we are cut off and cast into the fire

And being "in Christ" is based on covenantal relationship, or behavior?

 

[PeterJens]

Romans 10:2-3 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
Romans 6:18

Now the concept pushed here all the time is any righteousness that comes out of a believer is evil.
It must be only Jesus's righteousness.

But the believer is obeying and following Jesus's commands and righteousness, but it is their actions, so it must be evil.

They are caught forever declaring the same ideas. There is nothing good so therefore looking for fruit or good works or good righteous behaviour is evil, because it is self justfication rather than the result of knowing Jesus.

But we are called to good works, called to walk righteously and slaves to righteousness.

There is no hope for these brainwashed guys because sin no longer matters to them, how they walk is evil, they are simply lost, without hope. They claim to walk with Jesus but cannot claim one good thing they can do without it becoming evil and self justification. So they are purchased sinners who are slaves to sin, caught and never free, denying the power of Christ at work in their hearts, as they confess, they abandoned this because it did not work

 

[JesusIsAll]

okie dokie.....

Matthew 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

And I speak as a man, but then maybe let your communication be Okie dokie, okie dokie.

101 Bible Reasons Proving Eternal Security​

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There is a logical problem here. God knows what will happen with my faith, and the fruit it will bring or not bring, so he knows what will happen. Because he can see the future it is the fruit that shows the faith is real. Faith without future fruit is dead. So what you appear to be saying is meaningless and irrelevant.

No,

What you just said is quite funny though.

God knows what will happen. (so he does not need proof, he already knows it)
But he needs to see fruit for faith to be real not dead.

So does God know or not?

Your one big issue is works justification hatred. So you have made faith a separate thing to avoid this problem, thereby destroying faith itself. Faith without righteousness is dead, faith without works is dead. Faith without love is dead.

I asked a simple question. Does God need proof. So what you jst said here is irrevelent to the topic we are discussing.

Lets get this settled before we talk about other things.

So does God need proof? Is he God or not??

(ps. I did not ask if I need proof, so I can test my own faith, I asked if God needed proof)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Let me ask two simple questions. Why did God choose Saul as King, knowing he would fail? Why did God choose Judas as a disciple knowing he would betray him? Because the fruit of the heart needs to come out to prove what it is.

God foreknows the results, but that does not mean they do not happen.

A fruitless branch in Grace7x77 anology is a repaired and rejuvinated branch. But as all gardeners know some branches die from disease and problems. Jesus is describing fruitless branches for a reason, fruit matters.

But fruit is inevitable, it is not something to get upset about, walk with the Lord and fruit appears.

But hyper-grace would rather say that is being too hard on people, so we must change the meaning when Jesus is obvious.
Many are called, few are chosen.

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
Matt 7:13

The reason hyper-grace hate these verses because they imply effort and work, which they read as evil. Trouble is then they condemn Jesus as being evil, as he said the words and parables. It is why their position is untenable.

irrevelent to the conversation.

Does God need me to prove my own faith by works for God to KNOW MY FAITH IS REAL?

Think carefully before you answer please.

 

[PeterJens]

irrevelent to the conversation.

Does God need me to prove my own faith by works for God to KNOW MY FAITH IS REAL?

Think carefully before you answer please.

Think carefully before you try and take it in.

Faith does not exist until you speak it out. What you are saying is quite funny.

You think ideas in your head are faith. But how can you tell between an atheist and a believer if all there is is thoughts.
Feelings, ideas? Until you speak it out it is just a maybe. You only show you believe by doing something, a word or action.

You think you have faith by just sitting there and thinking I believe. All the parables are about doing things, literally.
There is no example of he sat there and thought and that was counted as righteousness.

You can claim you believe a car can drive you from one point to another, but until you get it and do it, it is of no value.
So God knows you have real faith even if you do not put it into action. That is delusion because it is not real faith.

God has foreknowledge of who are called and chosen, who will walk and who will not. You want to live in the world of theory and hyper-grace or no action which is dead.

 

[Gr8grace]

Think carefully before you try and take it in.

Faith does not exist until you speak it out. What you are saying is quite funny.

You think ideas in your head are faith. But how can you tell between an atheist and a believer if all there is is thoughts.
Feelings, ideas? Until you speak it out it is just a maybe. You only show you believe by doing something, a word or action.

You think you have faith by just sitting there and thinking I believe. All the parables are about doing things, literally.
There is no example of he sat there and thought and that was counted as righteousness.

You can claim you believe a car can drive you from one point to another, but until you get it and do it, it is of no value.
So God knows you have real faith even if you do not put it into action. That is delusion because it is not real faith.

God has foreknowledge of who are called and chosen, who will walk and who will not. You want to live in the world of theory and hyper-grace or no action which is dead.

Faith is non-meritorious and is a system of perception. There is no boasting in personal faith. It would be akin to boasting about breathing the air, or swallowing food and water. the merit is in the object of faith(Christ) not our faith.

Colossians 2:12 (NASB95)
12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

 

[PeterJens]

Real faith or false faith

A cricket ball is flying towards me. I have faith I can catch it, but I jump over it instead. I had no faith at all.
I have faith I can catch it, so I try and catch it. If my faith was right I hold the ball and do not drop it. My faith was good.

Now we only know our faith is good when we give it a try.

Faith is not a thing, it is a construction or belief about reality, that somethings are true in one way and not in another. It brings about certain behaviours. The best illustration of this is walking up stairs and getting the bottom step wrong.
You step up as if the step is there and put your full weight on it, but it is just air. Now that is faith, but miss-placed. You only know it is miss-placed by either not finding the step or seeing it is somewhere else.

So making faith a thing in its self is not sensible. Faith only works because it puts things together and allows action.

If you say action is irrelevant, then so is the faith.

Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
Matt 10:32-33


Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn "a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law – a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.”
‘Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.'
Matt 10:34-37

But hyper-grace believe Jesus is about peace and reconciliation only. If you cannot put faith into action you deny Jesus and are not worthy of Him.

 

[PeterJens]

Faith is non-meritorious and is a system of perception.

Faith is counted as righteousness.

However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.
Romans 4:5

We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness.
Romans 4:9

He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
Gal 3:14

So faith is meritorious. Faith is something you do, it defines how you peceive the world and how you get about.
I have faith is my legs to keep me up. If you ever meet someone who has had a stroke, they believe their legs still work but they are wrong. Miss-placed faith.

If you believe in Jesus, you will be saved. Now that is pretty meritorious. Faith gets you eternal life, not a bad bargain there.

If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.
Matt 21:22

Belief is powerful stuff, if understood in the right way.

Again hyper-grace denies plain promises of God and realities of the walk with Jesus.

 

[Grace777x70]

Continue in the Faith (Colossians 1:23)

Paul tells the Colossians, “God will present you holy, unblemished, and unblameable—if you continue in the faith.” This sounds like conditional salvation, but it is not. You are one with the Lord, and what God has joined together, no man can separate.

Paul is saying, “In God’s eyes you are already holy and perfect, but you won’t see it unless you believe it. You won’t walk in that truth except by faith.”
You may ask, “How can I believe I am holy when my life is such an unholy mess?”

You can believe it because your life is hidden in Christ and he is holy and unblemished. You have a need for holiness—you can’t get in without it—but the good news is that Jesus meets your need. By his one sacrifice, you have been made holy and perfect forever (Hebrews 10:10, 14).

I know this is a lot to swallow, particularly if you have been raised on a diet of mixture. If you have had old covenant notions of faithfulness drummed into you, it’s hard not to be anxious, especially when you stumble. But Paul’s letter to the Colossians, and particularly chapter 2, is a brilliant response to the fears and anxieties of the insecure believer. Let me give you an example.

​

One sign that you are not continuing in the faith is that you are more conscious of your lack than you are of the Lord’s supply. You may think, I’m not holy enough, righteous enough, or fruitful enough. Look at how Paul corrects this misperception:

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. (Colossians 2:9–10a)

How do you continue in the faith? By recognizing that in Christ you lack no good thing. In Christ you have received every spiritual blessing there is. “In Christ you have been brought to fullness.”

The problem is not your lack but your unbelief. If you pray, “God, please make me righteous and holy,” you are no longer continuing in faith. You are giving voice to unbelief and contradicting his word, which says you are complete in him.

Instead of asking Jesus to do what he’s already done, why not thank him that he’s done it? “Thank you, Jesus, that in you I am as righteous and holy as you are and eternally pleasing to God!”

 

[blue_ladybug]

You sound gay. Compromise, compromise, everything is rosy.

But also you lie. You hold with eternal torture of every soul not in heaven, conscious eternal torture without end or mercy or limit for not knowing and accepting Christ, even before Christ came. That is brutal, really brutal.

Let me show you God being brutal, but just.

“Whoever is for the Lord, come to me.” And all the Levites rallied to him.
Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’”
Exodus 32:26-27

This was Gods response to the golden calf idolatry. God cannot be mocked. The Lord will respond but do not fall into His hands but repent and acknowledge His judgement and righteousness, His truth and justice.

​That's quite rude. Was that slur REALLY necessary for you to say?

 

[Gr8grace]

Real faith or false faith

A cricket ball is flying towards me. I have faith I can catch it, but I jump over it instead. I had no faith at all.
I have faith I can catch it, so I try and catch it. If my faith was right I hold the ball and do not drop it. My faith was good.

Now we only know our faith is good when we give it a try.

Faith is not a thing, it is a construction or belief about reality, that somethings are true in one way and not in another. It brings about certain behaviours. The best illustration of this is walking up stairs and getting the bottom step wrong.
You step up as if the step is there and put your full weight on it, but it is just air. Now that is faith, but miss-placed. You only know it is miss-placed by either not finding the step or seeing it is somewhere else.

So making faith a thing in its self is not sensible. Faith only works because it puts things together and allows action.

If you say action is irrelevant, then so is the faith.

Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
Matt 10:32-33


Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn "a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law – a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.”
‘Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.'
Matt 10:34-37

But hyper-grace believe Jesus is about peace and reconciliation only. If you cannot put faith into action you deny Jesus and are not worthy of Him.

Sorry, but your trying to make rationalism and empiricism into faith.

Proverbs 14:12 (NASB95)
12 There is a way which seems right to a man,
But its end is the way of death.


2 Corinthians 4:18 (NASB95)
18 while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.


2 Corinthians 5:7 (NASB95)
7 for we walk by faith, not by sight—

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Think carefully before you try and take it in.

Faith does not exist until you speak it out. What you are saying is quite funny.

You think ideas in your head are faith. But how can you tell between an atheist and a believer if all there is is thoughts.
Feelings, ideas? Until you speak it out it is just a maybe. You only show you believe by doing something, a word or action.

You think you have faith by just sitting there and thinking I believe. All the parables are about doing things, literally.
There is no example of he sat there and thought and that was counted as righteousness.

You can claim you believe a car can drive you from one point to another, but until you get it and do it, it is of no value.
So God knows you have real faith even if you do not put it into action. That is delusion because it is not real faith.

God has foreknowledge of who are called and chosen, who will walk and who will not. You want to live in the world of theory and hyper-grace or no action which is dead.

Dude, You just slandard a person, which is not very christ like, and Now you made yourself look foolish.

You keep answering me as to why MEN need works to prove their faith is real. and then telling me I a stupip or whatever,

so, For the umpteenth time, I keep asking you why GOD needs works to know a man heart. NOT why men need to see works..

So instead of boasting as to how smart you are. and tearing everyone else down. Why do you not humble yourself a little and admit you have made a huge mistake.

And then maybe then, ANSWER MY QUESTION??

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

​That's quite rude. Was that slur REALLY necessary for you to say?

I think it may mean something a bit different in Britain.

 

[blue_ladybug]

I think it may mean something a bit different in Britain.

Somehow I doubt he meant that the person he responded to sounded happy.. :/

 

[Grace777x70]

Gay in Britian can mean "carefree"....i'm sure Peter was using it in with that thought in mind.

Somehow I doubt he meant that the person he responded to sounded happy.. :/

 

[JesusIsAll]

Somehow I doubt he meant that the person he responded to sounded happy.. :/

Yeah, in the context, it didn't seem to be hearkening back to Dickens. Speaking of which, I hate the way some words are ruined. You can't read some classics that it doesn't register in the back of your mind the author is saying that Christmas celebrations or a fine Spring day suddenly turned people into homos. Makes you even suspicious of the Flintstones, having a gay old time.