How to Recognize a Mixed-Grace Gospel

[JaumeJ]

So true, but we must not omit Paul's teaching, also in Romans, the our faith establishes the law. Thus when the Holy Spirit has truly entereed into us our hearts, minds and souls are opened up to understand the law anew, according to the teaching of Jesus Christ and His disciples. No longer are we blinded by looking through that veil of Moses for Jesus Christ has lit out view to perfectiion. We begin in the milk but we grow into the responsibility that comes with that gift of faith which establishes God's Word in it entirity.

Now I know when you say we are no longer under the law, rather we live in grace, that we are still to obey God, and the only way to know how to do this is fy the teaching of Jesus Christ as learned with revelation by the Holy Spirit. Nothing is understood without it.

Jesus certainly did divide men as He said He came to do. There is never harm in obeying our Father, but deliberate disobedience and teaching to do so is very dangers.Obedience is never a sin, but lawlessness, that is, disobedience most certainly is sinful, for what is sin but disobeying our Fahter's will.

That's right..we have a new heart ..we are a new creation in Christ...it's His life in us that is bearing the fruit of obedience....we are the branches..His "Vine life" flows out to us effortlessly and bears fruit because we are in union with the One who is always faithful!

We become obedient to the faith.. believing in Jesus..

Romans 1:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name's sake,

It is His obedience that we live from now...it's His life of obedience flowing out of us from our new creations in Christ..the inner man of the heart created in righteousness and holiness......

Romans 5:19 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

 

[Grandpa]

How is it the hyper-grace crowd appeal to the weakest, the most uncertain, those who are not sure they are following Christ or are disallusioned with following Jesus and listening to His words. The argument is you are unfruitful but we can make you fruitful, it is because you have been following the wrong gospel.

What is obvious is they are prepared to change and distort what they really believe to agree with scripture until they have people on their side. And those who follow their ideas are really hurt and bitter over their experiences in their churches over many years. Rather than accepting it is their sin and wrong spiritual approach it is the legalism or judgementalism of the fellowships they belonged to.

This is a parasitical process, not bringing new life or regeneration but cycling believers from one fellowship to another.
The truth of real spiritual reality is when the unsaved find the Lord. It does not appear to be the people we are meeting here and certainly I would never follow this worldly version of christianity.

Ephesians 2:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

So we have the Lord saying come to Him and He will give us Rest and that if we abide there in Him we will bring forth much fruit.

What fruit?

Galatians 5:22-23

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Any questions???

Romans 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

 

[PeterJens]

hello. want to answer some of the thing i asked you.

You are right in everything you have said. Jesus says "believe in Him"
Now John the Baptist said "Repent". Jonah said "Repent". Moses said "Repent". Jesus said "Repent". The apostles said "Repent". But what is the problem, what is it that they should repent of? Sin.

No matter how you play the game, which rules or methods you employ were are called to be righteous people.

Now there are some complexities and issues around this term righteous, but the idea is appropriate responders, people full of love and acceptance, people full of the Holy Spirit.

If we agree on this, then we have a conversation, if not, we believe in different faiths.

It is clear to me people do not want to listen to the basics of life and appropriate behaviour. For whatever reason they find this basic concept too hard. The law has brought condemnation on their souls and they do not know how to walk in victory.

 

[PeterJens]

Ephesians 2:8-9
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

So we have the Lord saying come to Him and He will give us Rest and that if we abide there in Him we will bring forth much fruit.

What fruit?

Galatians 5:22-23

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Any questions???

Romans 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

I agree Jesus is saying my burden is light.

Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
Matt 11:28-30

What is love? In all this confusion, odd theology, condemning law, saying the righteous are just legalists, what is love?

Love is servant hood, love is sacrifice for the benefit of others. Love is seeing need and meeting it. Love is knowing a kind answer is better than an angry response.

And the foundation of love is learning, discipline, obedience. With all the ceremonies, the rituals in the temple, the celebrations, the sacrificing of animals have you not learnt this is our God. This is His heart, the way to approach His throne, in discipline, in submission, in acknowledging His ways are higher than our ways, His thoughts wiser than our thoughts. It is hard to take this step, but it is the first step of faith and acknowledge what the cross really means.

If you cannot take this first step, you do not know God. The Lord has not changed or ever will.

What I find strange is people who claim such spiritual authority have not grasped the basics of spiritual reality and righteousness.

Jesus accepts us as we are, but He desires we become His children by walking His ways. You can only do that with the light on and seeing the truth of where you stand. Else it is like an alcoholic saying everything is ok, he only drinks three bottles of wine a day, nothing wrong with that.

 

[notuptome]

define demon, ie some of the things call demon, in the bible, are now called an illness in 2016. ie epilepsy for example.

Lu 8:29 (For he had commanded the unclean spirit to come out of the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and was driven of the devil into the wilderness.)

Lu 9:42 And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the child, and delivered him again to his father.

Lu 11:24 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.

Biblical description.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[FreeNChrist]

So true, but we must not omit Paul's teaching, also in Romans, the our faith establishes the law. Thus when the Holy Spirit has truly entereed into us our hearts, minds and souls are opened up to understand the law anew, according to the teaching of Jesus Christ and His disciples. No longer are we blinded by looking through that veil of Moses for Jesus Christ has lit out view to perfectiion. We begin in the milk but we grow into the responsibility that comes with that gift of faith which establishes God's Word in it entirity.

Now I know when you say we are no longer under the law, rather we live in grace, that we are still to obey God, and the only way to know how to do this is fy the teaching of Jesus Christ as learned with revelation by the Holy Spirit. Nothing is understood without it.

Jesus certainly did divide men as He said He came to do. There is never harm in obeying our Father, but deliberate disobedience and teaching to do so is very dangers.Obedience is never a sin, but lawlessness, that is, disobedience most certainly is sinful, for what is sin but disobeying our Fahter's will.

How are you obedient to Jesus??

 

[FreeNChrist]

This idea is inline with the gnostic belief that the new nature (new birth) was incorruptible by any means. Gnostics thought that grace was a spiritual 'substance' that could not be taken away from them, just as you are suggesting that the new birth can't be undone. This is essentially salvation by grace apart from faith. This was described in another thread like his: faith is a one-time event to be saved, but grace is eternal.

Straw man.

 

[Grace777x70]

Can we as an act of "our will" stop being a human and take away our own natural birth?..so it is with the new creation in Christ..created in righteousness and holiness....despite what our humanistic natural minds make up.....

John 6:63 (NASB)
[SUP]63 [/SUP] "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

Straw man.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This idea is inline with the gnostic belief that the new nature (new birth) was incorruptible by any means. Gnostics thought that grace was a spiritual 'substance' that could not be taken away from them, just as you are suggesting that the new birth can't be undone. This is essentially salvation by grace apart from faith. This was described in another thread like his: faith is a one-time event to be saved, but grace is eternal.

Straw man.

A straw man argument requires a mischaracterization of another's position. It can't be questioned that some here believe the new birth cannot be undone, because they have said as much. So it's no mischaracterization to state what they have said they believe.

In fact, the post immediately preceding this one demonstrates this belief.

 

[FreeNChrist]

A straw man argument requires a mischaracterization of another's position. It can't be questioned that some here believe the new birth cannot be undone, because they have said as much. So it's no mischaracterization to state what they have said they believe.

Exactly. You are the straw man king.

 

[PeterJens]

Can we as an act of "our will" stop being a human and take away our own natural birth?..so it is with the new creation in Christ..created in righteousness and holiness....despite what our humanistic natural minds make up.....

John 6:63 (NASB)
[SUP]63 [/SUP] "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

Grace7x77 Do you believe as spiritual beings we have free choice?

Now a human born to parents, born into a family, are biologically part of that family but can still disown it. It means the relationship is broken as is no more.

Equally we as humans all have a relationship with our God, he created us. But that does not make us in fellowship or not enemies of Him.

You are suggesting the Lords Kingdom is founded on birth not free-will or choice. Everything is scripture suggests otherwise. All the followers of God chose to follow God when He called. And sometimes those called then walked away.

In your construct if you are born you are a slave to God, with no free will or ability to sin. Oh no, you say we can sin but it does not change the relationship, we are always saved. But if you are on the outside and someone continues in sin or believes and then later walks away they were never really saved.

That is having your cake, and eating it. It actually meaning nothing other than reassurance to wavering believers. And you must have lots of followers who are not sure they are in the kingdom to need such reassurance so your great spiritual experiences must also be fake or double minded.

 

[PeterJens]

It is funny if you say a straw man argument is wrong. It is a useful device to make a point. It maybe unfair or accurate but it helps constructing the form of the argument and making plain its content.

If you do not like this approach, do not discuss or debate, because it is part of how the structure of such things happen.
Jesus used straw men all the time in parables. Often people did not understand them. Now if God uses this form, then so will I.

 

[FreeNChrist]

It is funny if you say a straw man argument is wrong. It is a useful device to make a point. It maybe unfair or accurate but it helps constructing the form of the argument and making plain its content.

If you do not like this approach, do not discuss or debate, because it is part of how the structure of such things happen.
Jesus used straw men all the time in parables. Often people did not understand them. Now if God uses this form, then so will I.

Ummmmm, no. Nonsense.

 

[PeterJens]

Ummmmm, no. Nonsense.

I think your response to an obvious reality sums up your spiritual insight.

I design computer systems. Often you have to construct a straw man to see if the details will work or fail.
The concepts are often too complex to consider as a whole without the framework.

It is like theology to work it needs a framework of assumptions upon which things hang.

Hyper grace has one, the carnal world and the spiritual world.
The gnostic spirit that comes into you.

Theology has one is Jesus dying upon the cross for the sins of the world.

These frameworks do not change they are used to see things by different perspectives. It is why correctly put forward they can be very helpful, and if wrong, very destructive.

Obviously this is very new to you.

 

[FreeNChrist]

I think your response to an obvious reality sums up your spiritual insight.

No. It sums up what I think about what you think.

 

[PeterJens]

No. It sums up what I think about what you think.

The thing I find funny about an answer like "no" to the straw man concept, is it is like saying to a large lorry, you are not there, it is all an illusion.

It does not matter whether you like what I am saying, I am just commenting on the reality of what straw man arguments are.

In purely academic terms, it just demonstrates you do not know the arena you are in and are out of your depth.

In army terms a grunt can kill people, but it is just for use in power play situations. Hello grunt.

 

[PeterJens]

I am a fool for Christ. I glory in His cross, that he counted me worthy to die for my sins and call me friend.

I would do anything within my power for Him if He asked me to. And all he asked me to do was follow, so Amen, halleluyah.

 

[FreeNChrist]

The thing I find funny about an answer like "no" to the straw man concept, is it is like saying to a large lorry, you are not there, it is all an illusion.

No. It's exactly like saying that what you wrote is nonsense.

 

[FreeNChrist]

I am a fool for Christ. I glory in His cross, that he counted me worthy to die for my sins and call me friend.

I would do anything within my power for Him if He asked me to. And all he asked me to do was follow, so Amen, halleluyah.

And yet all you write is based in worldly humanistic reasoning.

 

[phil36]

Hi Peterjens,

I wouldn't waste my breath with freeNchrist, he's just trying to wind you up.